misleading info on books/websites

imranshaykh said:
The belief in the 12th Imam is an Islamic concept. So how can the Babi and the Bahai sources supercede the Islamic sources in this regard.
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As has been repeatedly said, we do not. Other than by memorization, how would you know it if it was in your hands? How were the Jews to see the truth of Jesus? How were the arabs to know the words of Muhammd were in fact God's words, not his own?

How?

Now apply that standard to the Babi and Baha'i Scriptures. God doeth what He wills, and no man shall be asked permission.
 
smkolins said:
As has been repeatedly said, we do not. Other than by memorization, how would you know it if it was in your hands? How were the Jews to see the truth of Jesus? How were the arabs to know the words of Muhammd were in fact God's words, not his own?

How?

Now apply that standard to the Babi and Baha'i Scriptures. God doeth what He wills, and no man shall be asked permission.
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He's approaching "debate" as a praxis with a double standard. He has one standard of evidence which he accepts for his ownargument, which he does not accept for the opposing side.

I have seen the same kind of thing when holocaust deniers wish to demean the accuracy of eye-witness evidence while insisting that eye-witness arguments that agree with him are perfectly accurate and indisputable.

One must ap[ply the same standards of evidence to both sides of the argument. Imran seems to be trying to slip a shoddy methodology across as rational debate. It amounts to an argumentum ad ignorantium, an argument from ignorance. "Since you cannot prove to my standards that the Bab's Revelation is true, it must not BE true."

This totally ignores that his standards of evidence are not equivalent.

There are two reasons for this: one simple ignorance of the basis of the argument, or a willful intent to persuade dishonestly.

Its a tactic well-worthy of Anjoman-e Zedd-e Baha'iyat (The Anti-Baha'i Society).

Regards,
Scott
 
Popeyesays said:
He's approaching "debate" as a praxis with a double standard. He has one standard of evidence which he accepts for his ownargument, which he does not accept for the opposing side.

I have seen the same kind of thing when holocaust deniers wish to demean the accuracy of eye-witness evidence while insisting that eye-witness arguments that agree with him are perfectly accurate and indisputable.

One must ap[ply the same standards of evidence to both sides of the argument. Imran seems to be trying to slip a shoddy methodology across as rational debate. It amounts to an argumentum ad ignorantium, an argument from ignorance. "Since you cannot prove to my standards that the Bab's Revelation is true, it must not BE true."

This totally ignores that his standards of evidence are not equivalent.

There are two reasons for this: one simple ignorance of the basis of the argument, or a willful intent to persuade dishonestly.

Its a tactic well-worthy of Anjoman-e Zedd-e Baha'iyat (The Anti-Baha'i Society).

Regards,
Scott
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Thank you for your response.

This will be my last post. I leave here with certainty that Bab was not the 12th Imam - not atleast that of the Muslims. He may have been some 12th Imam, but belonging to a chain of Imams different from the ones that I believe in.

Yes, you are right in saying that I argued only one one point. I could argue on many, but I chose to seek a clarification on one single point. But I get absolutely no documentary proof indicating that the Bab was the 12th Imam.

As defenders of the Bahai Faith which claims to have come out of the Babi Faith, I expected a better response. I have been requesting clarification on an integral part of the faith. It was not that I was arguing about the color of the Bab's beard.

But almost all my friends from the Bahai Faith, and I thank them for their time, responded with arguments of blind faith. "Tell us what you will, but the Bab was the 12th Imam. Period. Your argument is wrong, your references are wrong, the documents you produce are forgeries."

Sorry, I do not buy that argument. Nor that style of debate. I argue with references and do not make irresponsible statements. I expect the same from my Bahai friends.

Many thanks for your patience and time.

You can read my views which have come through this discussion [on my website.]

Regards
Imran Shaykh


[Admin edit by I, Brian - members should use their profiles to indicate their websites, rather than link to them and claim that CR discussions are continuing there, thanks]
 
Hello again, Imran!

Yes, the Bab was indeed a Siyyid as others have also pointed out!

I>So what happened to all the punishment promised to disbelivers and the rewards for believers.

Unelievers punish THEMSELVES, in fact, through preventing themselves from attaining Heaven.

And the Judgement Day has indeed come and gone, as "The Book of Certitude" makes clear. I invite you to read it and see how and why! It's at the usual Baha'i sites, including www.bahai-library.org

The Bab's mission was indeed brief because it was simply to announce the imminent Advent of Bahau'llah.

And you seem to overlook the fact that John the Baptist denied being Ezekiel even though Christ then said he was indeed Ezekiel! So there is clearly precedent here, too!

Peace,

Bruce
 
All faiths of the world have the potential to be universally unifying if all people accept one. Just as the Baha’i faith asks to accept its theology. There isn't a major world religion out there that states one human to be superior to the other anyway. Only of its theology just as the Baha'i faith. If one religion is not superior to the other, then what purpose does the Baha’i faith hold?

 
Hi, PM! :)

Postmaster said:
If one religion is not superior to the other, then what purpose does the Baha’i faith hold?
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Very simple.

While the spritual teachings of all the great religions are essentially the same (though sometimes expressed in different wordings, the social teachings INTENTIONALLY vary from Age to Age, and the social laws of one Age tend to be quite unsuitable in another. (Consider the ban in the Tanach <Jewish scriptures> on the wearing of clothing made of mixed fabrics, for example....)

So in fulfillment of His Covenant with humanity, God periodically sends a new Divine Messenger with updated social teachings (usually every 500-1,000 years).

And the Baha'i Faith is the latest--though not the last (there will never be a "last") stage in this never-ending evolutionary process! It thus provides the Laws of God for THIS day, not for some other millenia ago! And that's why it's so important.

(Of course, in the fullness of time the Baha'i Faith, too, will be superceded by newer teachings from God. Progress <and evolution> don't stop!)

Best, :)

Bruce
 
BTW, Postmaster, while I see you, I'd like to make a humble suggestion; please pass this on to the right person!:

It would be really nice if the nine-pointed star, the symbol of the Baha'i Faith, could be added to the logo that appears when folks enter this discussion area!

I realize the graphic is pretty crowded already, and wouldn't want to presume to take the center spot, but maybe the Baha'i nine-pointed star could replace the circle near the lower right?

Thanks! :)

Bruce
 
Postmaster said:
All faiths of the world have the potential to be universally unifying if all people accept one. Just as the Baha’i faith asks to accept its theology. There isn't a major world religion out there that states one human to be superior to the other anyway. Only of its theology just as the Baha'i faith. If one religion is not superior to the other, then what purpose does the Baha’i faith hold?
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Dear Postmaster,

Baha`i's espouse that all the religions are the religion of God and are therefore uniting the peoples of the world. However, man does not understand this and must be educated to the truth of this concept.

Christians, Jews, Muslims, Parsees, and others will probably be uncomfortable with the claim because it violates the dogma and traditions of those established religion.

No part of the religion of God is superior to another. No Messenger is superior to another. I believe that this is forgotten by the followers of a single Messenger to the exclusion of the others. One should love the lamp because the light appears within it. The light is the object of desire, not any single lamp in which it might appear.

God promises to never leave us alone.

The Bab in a real sense was the return of Christ, from a Baha`i point of view.

Jesus promised the Comforter and the Spirit of Truth.

"In former dispensations the sick body of the world could not bear the strong and overpowering remedies. That is why His Highness the Christ said: "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit, when He, the Spirit of the Comforter, who is sent by the Father, is come, He will guide you into all truth." Therefore, in this age of lights, specific teachings have become universal, in order that the outpouring of the Merciful One environ both the East and the West, the oneness of the kingdom of humanity become visible and the luminosity of truth enlighten the world of consciousness. The descent of the New Jerusalem is the heavenly religion which secures the prosperity of the human world and is the effulgence of the illumination of the realm of God."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 381)

It has been the custom for Christians to look upon the "Comforter" as simply the Holy Spirit which descended upon the Apostles and believers after the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ, as St. Augustine presents:
"And Thou, O Lord, hadst already magnified Thy Holy One, raising Him from the dead, and setting Him at Thy right hand, whence from on high He should send His promise, the Comforter, the Spirit of truth. And He had already sent Him, but I knew it not; He had sent Him, because He was now magnified, rising again from the dead, and ascending into heaven. For till then, the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified."
(Confessions of St Augustine, Book 9)

Bible reference to the Comforter is in the story of Christ trying to console the disciples when He warns them of His coming passing:
fourteenth chapter of the Gospel of John:
"16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;


17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Fifteenth Chapter of the Gospel of John:
" 25But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.


26But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning."

Sixteenth chapter of John:

" 6But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.


7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. "

Bahas`i's believe the Holy Spirit has been with Creation from the beginning. The whole of Creation is bathed in the warmth of the Holy Spirit. Therefore Christ is not speaking of the Holy Spirit coming to the believers with the passing of Christ because the Holy Spirit has been with man forever.

Instead we believe that the "Holy SPirit" Christ speaks of is another instance of the Word Made Flesh, come in flesh to speak the word of God to men with a human voice - as did Christ.

Baha`u'llah made the claim public in a letter to the Roman Church and the leaders of the Christian faiths:

"Give ear unto that which the Dove of Eternity warbleth upon the twigs of the Divine Lote-Tree: O peoples of the earth! We sent forth him who was named John to baptize you with water, that your bodies might be cleansed for the appearance of the Messiah. He, in turn, purified you with the fire of love and the water of the spirit in anticipation of these Days whereon the All-Merciful hath purposed to cleanse you with the water of life at the hands of His loving providence. This is the Father foretold by Isaiah, and the Comforter concerning Whom the Spirit(a term meaning Christ) had covenanted with you. Open your eyes, O concourse of bishops, that ye may behold your Lord seated upon the Throne of might and glory."
(Baha'u'llah, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 63)

-------------------

I simply do not know how to answer the questions that have been asked here without appearing to promote a faith. People have asked for justification for the Baha`i's claim to validity of its Messenger and Message, so I attempt to offer the answers to that in the words of the Messengers Themselves as much as possible. I can not do that without suggesting that the words of the Messengers of the past might need new illumination from a different angle to be understood in a new way. This is not meant to belittle the old ways of looking at these matters, merely to suggest that the scriptures of the Divine Manifestations have many levels of meaning, some more apparent, some which challenge our understanding, but all of which - if duly considered in light of one another reveal a single, unifying truth - that God's Revelation to mankind is ongoing and timeless - the One God, the Merciful, will truly never leave us by ourselves because He created us to a magnificent inheritance.

Regards,
Scott
 
BruceDLimber said:
Oh--and one last question, Postmaster:

Might you know how I can save my avatar?

I'd like to use it in another forum I participate in, but don't know how to capture it so I can install it there, too.

Thanks in advance. :)

Bruce
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Right click on it, SAVE PICTURE AS, save it to your computer.

Regards,
Scott
 
BruceDLimber said:
BTW, Postmaster, while I see you, I'd like to make a humble suggestion; please pass this on to the right person!:

It would be really nice if the nine-pointed star, the symbol of the Baha'i Faith, could be added to the logo that appears when folks enter this discussion area!

I realize the graphic is pretty crowded already, and wouldn't want to presume to take the center spot, but maybe the Baha'i nine-pointed star could replace the circle near the lower right?

Thanks! :)

Bruce
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Hi Bruce,

Probably the best person to ask is the site host, I, Brian. It is due to his hospitality that this site exists. :)

added: also, you might note that there is a section specifically for Feedback to the site. It is toward the bottom of the main forum pge.

cheers,
lunamoth
 
Popeyesays said:
Christians, Jews, Muslims, Parsees, and others will probably be uncomfortable with the claim because it violates the dogma and traditions of those established religion.
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Ah, yes - but then, the Baha'i faith has it's own dogma, and therefore the situation simply ends up as one religious dogma dictating to other religious dogmas. :)
 
I said:
Ah, yes - but then, the Baha'i faith has it's own dogma, and therefore the situation simply ends up as one religious dogma dictating to other religious dogmas. :)
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We define "dogma" like this:
"In response to your letter of 3 September 1979 asking if there are dogmas and rites in the Bahá'í Faith, the Universal House of Justice has instructed us to convey its reply.
"A dogma is a principle, tenet or teaching, especially an authoritative teaching, and in these senses it is apparent that the Faith has 'dogmas'. The word is also used, however, to describe that body of rigid doctrines that have accumulated in a religion after the passing of the Founder; such man-made dogmas are entirely absent from the Bahá'í Faith, nor can it ever acquire them.
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 476)

For instance the Baha`i wedding has only one specific vow that must be repeated by both partners: "We will all verily abide by the will of God". Since Baha`u'llah defines this vow, and allows each couple to build their own ceremony around the vow, there is little chance that it can become ritualized or dogmatized. Same for burials, etc. . .

Jesus spoke of marriage, but established no ceremony for it, man created ceremony for Christian marriage, not the Prophet.

Muhammed speaks of marriage, but established no ceremony for it, man has created ceremony for Muslim marriage.

When man-made ceremony becomes enshrined it can become "dogma" in the bad sense of the word. There is not much chance for that in the Baha`i dispensation.
Regards,
Scott
 
Popeyesays said:
When man-made ceremony becomes enshrined it can become "dogma" in the bad sense of the word. There is not much chance for that in the Baha`i dispensation.
Regards,
Scott
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But ceremony isn't dogma - ceremony is ceremony. :)

Dogma is the institution upon which organised belief rests upon:

Definitions: Dogma

of which the first part of the statement you quote simply indicates:

A dogma is a principle, tenet or teaching, especially an authoritative teaching, and in these senses it is apparent that the Faith has 'dogmas'.
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To mention ceremony seems to muddy the question.

As for adding graphics - that's something I can certainly look at - be prepared for changes soon, hopefully. :)
 
I said:
But ceremony isn't dogma - ceremony is ceremony. :)

Dogma is the institution upon which organised belief rests upon:

Definitions: Dogma

of which the first part of the statement you quote simply indicates:



To mention ceremony seems to muddy the question.

As for adding graphics - that's something I can certainly look at - be prepared for changes soon, hopefully. :)
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Well, let's look at baptism for instance. How many branches of Christianity are divided by the ceremony of baptism?

What is the ceremony described in the Gospel?

Is there one and only ONE proper ceremony - the issue becomes dogma, and dogma divides the branches of Christianity.

I pulled this particular example of the top of my head, not because I wish to discuss dogma in Christianity in particular.

Regards,
Scott
 
Well I'm going to come out with something, I had a dream I was in a white palace with many people and I walked into a small room where I found a black book in the middle, I went up to the book and picked it up when I left with it at that point I realised I was holding the holy writings of the Baha'i faith, then I woke up. Early this year I spent a lot of time here trying to discredit the faith after experiences similar phenomenon but after that dream I started reading more material online of the faith and again I could smell an unexplainable scent of roses.

Romany gypsies are known for there sixth sense and seems the Baha’i faith has even reached that community.

 
Postmaster said:
Well I'm going to come out with something, I had a dream I was in a white palace with many people and I walked into a small room where I found a black book in the middle, I went up to the book and picked it up when I left with it at that point I realised I was holding the holy writings of the Baha'i faith, then I woke up. Early this year I spent a lot of time here trying to discredit the faith after experiences similar phenomenon but after that dream I started reading more material online of the faith and again I could smell an unexplainable scent of roses.

Romany gypsies are known for there sixth sense and seems the Baha’i faith has even reached that community.
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Thanks for sharing your dreams again Postmaster! It's been a few months I think when we heard about that.

How have you been by the way?

One aspect of your dream that we had discussed earlier as I recall was that Baha'u'llah had been associated with roses and they were very plentiful in the Ridvan Garden when He made His declaration.

Another aspect of this is that the early believers were led to their Faith through dreams and spiritual experiences.

Today is the anniversary of the Birth of the Bab by the way and a Holy Day for Baha'is..

Praise is due to God.

- Art
 
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