Final Warning Given Unto Mankind, Tribulation Is Near and Soon Cometh.

Ahanu

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I have also had out of body experiences throughout my whole life starting when I was 12.

Ah, I saw this in another thread. Do you know what you were doing at this particular time and what caused it? Did the experience just come to you out of the blue?
 

donnann

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Ah, I saw this in another thread. Do you know what you were doing at this particular time and what caused it? Did the experience just come to you out of the blue?
It would just happen. I also have a memory of when one guy took me to see another guy who was showing me this holographic type display of the universe and was teaching me how it all worked, I was very small at the time. I was very young when this stuff was going on. I may have been around 4 or 5. Do you still have those experiences? If so where do you go when you have them? I remember going out into the universe and seeing a city on another planet.
 

powessy

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That's not the conclusion I arrived at. We'll need to agree to disagree. The
advanced aliens are created beings. They are not necessary beings, but God is. God is more plausible. The thought experiment is simply for thinking about higher intellectual beings of the benevolent type and how they might react to our ignorance and other forms of suffering.

I would like to apologize for the misunderstanding, I was simply trying to find a middle ground in which we could leave this conversation at, but you are persistent. First we are not in a physics class, we can not set our undefined variables to zero this is the universe all things must be considered, regarding your benevolent race and god.

I do not know why the universe started yet, only that it started. I have been toying with the idea that our universe might be a bubble that formed within an ocean of dark matter, or a collision of matter within a faster then light environment causing this matter to slow down creating alternate realities as it slowed down. The more we understand how things work the better we see that the universe is functioning with in the rules and not divine(godly) intervention. What if a cure for cancer and all disease was already found but held back from the people for reasons of greed, what if the synthesis of these drugs were direct higher benevolent intervention? Are you sure we are not being helped by these Benevolent races already?

There are other advanced races many at vibrational levels above us, they are unable to see us anymore then we can see them, the only difference is they know we are here. A race that has evolved far enough to travel throughout space has already advanced to a vibrational level above ours. Those races on the same level as us are trapped by the same physics that trap us, mostly the mind.

By magic I simply meant tech that is indistinguishable from magic. Your idea that the vast distance between the stars prevents an advanced civ from helping kills the thought experiment. But I did learn you think they would help us. To continue the thought experiment, I proposed alternate ways for
advanced civs to intervene. One example is for them to seed the galaxy with nanotech millions of years ahead of our appearance on Earth. The question still lingers: Assuming they exist in our galaxy, where are they? Death has reigned on this planet for millions of years. They have plenty of time to think about intervening in human affairs.


Time really is not an issue it is our evolution that is hindering us we are on a down hill spiral that will kill the planet prior to us achieving this enlightenment and evolving, making it imposable to receive help from any benevolent race, for they can not control those not so benevolent races, and mans greed. The nano-tech thing is a small wrench in the gears as it proposes a plausible scenario, but most improbable, I don't believe that this is the case, for communication throughout the universe is much simpler then nano-tech. I have recently read some articles were tools and pottery have been found in coal mines dating back millions of years prior to man. There are many unexplained phenomenon that have occurred throughout time that may have been signals for change. Hitler had a passion for the mysterious what happened to all the things that he collected throughout his reign. You and I have only seen 1% of the actual evidence out there the rest is held by those who wish to gain. I do not like conspiracies but find it hard to believe that I am not being corralled or guided by a society of institutions that only seeks profits. How can anyone make an informed decision when you have so few facts at our disposal. Some people are followers and some of us ask questions to no end, who is right? I just for some reason refuse to put on that dirty little sheep skin.


You have made discovering truth our own responsibility, so now it isn't the responsibility of an advanced civ to impart half of their intelligence on us, right? I think such a scenario , in which they bestow half of their intelligence on us, is a problem. Everybody wouldn't want that. Some may opt for remaining human, because such an intelligence would surely render us into some post-human form. And, if the advanced civ gives the humans a choice in the matter, then that partly resolves this problem. The disappearance of others who have opted for a post-human form would merely create new problems. Human society would be forced to change in some radical way because of the advanced civs intervention.

We all should be on a path of truth, were you born christian or was it a later choice there are thousands of choices, are these not individual paths sought for fulfillment. How does one hide the true path, well lets see, a thousand possibilities and only one truth, a cross in a pile of crosses. The ego is the rational part of the mind you must learn to ascend your ego with in you this will make the path less problematic for the individual. There is only 1 in 13 that have the ability to ascend so most of those people will not need to worry how they will react with the information presented by these
benevolent races. The solution is those that are unable to ascend will not ascend there will be no choice this is your so called judgment ,it is as simple as that.


Similarly, in an evolutionary universe a God that intervenes and magically gives a part of creation a heap of intelligence would raise all kinds of restrictions, no? The evolutionary law wouldn't apply to us. It seems to me the universe would have to be redesigned into some static thing. Kind of like those sunday school conceptions of heaven as an eternal place of streets of gold, where you'll live with your unchanging family and friends for an eternity. While it does take away suffering, it also takes away change, growth, and mystery.

If you could stand at the front line of a world evolutionary timeline and could watch every scenario play out all the way to the finish on all lines, at what point would you intervene. Some societies will have flawless timelines were they will find a path that is unhindered, this society most likely will not
receive any kind of benevolent help. god is not a measure for me, he is man made along with those so important streets of gold.


Okay. This is a subtle form of intervention. I like it. Much more practical than an abrupt intervention, such as UFOs descending from the skys to enlighten us. How they can intervene is as important as if they can intervene.


I do not believe in other world ufo's, I do not believe there are races close enough in galactic proximity to travel here in a time that is feasible to their species and ours in our dimension. Time is a crucial factor for travel within our dimensional reality, it is the most important factor when traversing the universe so unless time can be manipulated travel by any other means is impractical. Do you think it is possible that the ufos people see are only weak points in the veil? Is this the only timeline being played out on this planet? What of the mass disappearances throughout history where are these people?

Notice how your attitude has changed towards the advanced civ. You don't require them to give us half of their intelligence as you do with God. You see ways for them to help us without such a radical intervention as imparting half their knowledge. From what I'm reading from you, you hold negative feelings towards the concept of a theistic God.


So are you saying that the benevolent races hold as much knowledge as your god. It is you that put god upon a pedestal as the all knowing, with this title he should give us half of his knowledge, if the advanced civ is imagined to have the same intelligence as your god than I ask the same of them as I would expect from your god. we must agree for future debates that these two entities have equal powers so not to confuse my words as being negative. Please tell me how these two measure up and this will set the stage for future talks.


You listed many reasons God doesn't make sense, one of them being that God can create any level of being. You questioned the gap between God and humans. As I stated before, to ask why God didn't create Its own level of being doesn't make sense, because the very action of creating makes the being created a creation and dependent on the Creator. You then said God could at least make us a half-God, giving us 1/2 of Its intelligence. I then asked you to consider a thought experiment involving advanced civs of the benevolent type, and asked how you think they would intervene into human affairs. Would they radically intervene by giving us half of their intelligence? I answered by saying this how brings up problems for those intervened with. You concluded maybe they would guide us in subtle ways:

Do you not feel dependent upon your god since you are it's creation, and is it not in his power to insure that his creations are cared for and not deceived. There are thousands of religions are you sure yours is the right one? The number of Christians is decreasing everyday are these people all going to die a hellish death. The church has done nothing to better it's image to the people and most of the stories it tells are filled with inconsistencies. Man has proven many times that when he is on the precipice of extinction some how the answers seem to present themselves are these answers given under some subtle means.

Perhaps all you have to do is believe in yourself and believe in the path that you are on to end suffering and pain, maybe if your intentions are true (they) will guide you for they can see the strength in your heart.
You see it as a possible, so I guess this reason God can't exist can be ruled out, at least for me. You also have other reasons:
-Different religions exist, meaning religious-minded people can't agree
-From a social standpoint, the concept of God is useless except as a coping mechanism for pain and
suffering
-The Bible isn't trustworthy and is inaccurate
-The design of the universe doesn't indicate God exists
I'm sure this doesn't reflect all of your reasons. Can you sum up each reason you don't believe in God
with one-sentence reasons? I'm not here to convince you God exists. After all, you have touched on very difficult subjects. I just want to understand more about why you don't believe.


The main reason and the thing that keeps me centered is a simple question I keep asking myself "if I were him and I had all the information to the universe at my disposal what would I have done to make things here better". I am a simple mind but can imagine a better world then we currently live in so why is it so difficult for him who has infinite power.

Next I look to reason and block out all things impractical this shortens the bible and all it's teachings down to a few pages of text. I believe there are some lessons to be found in the bible but none that I could have not come up with on my own. I find that all the religions have useful lessons and a simple story why should I not gain as much wisdom from all the lessons other then sticking to one belief.

The other thing that separates my beliefs is that I was never pushed to believe in any one way but to find my own path. I can usually see through things and see there inner workings, I find this helps me to be more critical of things always replaying them over and over again till all the pieces fit.

The above mentioned items that you quoted, are only a few discrepancies found in this thing you call god, there are more but how many faults do you allow before seeking a more reliable solution. Have I amounted enough evidence to seek other possibilities, if a man walked up to you with as many holes in his story as the bible would he stand before you for long?
 

powessy

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Ah, I saw this in another thread. Do you know what you were doing at this particular time and what caused it? Did the experience just come to you out of the blue?

They started out of the blue on the onset of puberty I believe. I think they may have started earlier but I only see bits and pieces of things from that time. I have written down my different experiences on another forum so I am cutting and pasting it here hope to shed some light on these experiences. These experiences have been ongoing for over 3 decades, I have had thousands of them and my only fear is they will stop happening someday before I figure them out.

First, As a kid growing up I was in a couple accidents. The first one me and my friends were drinking and decided to sit on top of the hood of a car. The driver was under aged and took off unexpectedly reaching the speeds of over 50 miles per hour, she lost control on loose gravel. I watched my friends be thrown from the hood of the car as I remained there. Time almost froze, I could think and see every detail as it unfolded, I am still haunted by this accident, This has happened several times more in my life but in different scenarios, where time just almost completely stopped.

The experts say it has to do with high levels of adrenalin. So for the highest level obe experiences I have had, this is what it feels like my heart races to who knows what( like being in that accident) then it seems as though time stops no vibrations no paralysis everything is the same around me except, This is where I first met both of my sons and both of my daughters prior to their births, I also met both of my guides here. Other then the sensation that time stopped everything else is the same.

The next level of obe that I have had is with vibrations or paralysis once they begin then the break away occurs, I am free but for how long, I am not solid but look like thickly dense particles I can pass through walls but feel them as I do. I can hear the dreams of my family members as I coast through the house. I can only maintain this for maybe 5 to 10 minutes then I am pulled back. Once I return I almost always go into astral projection. If you have vibrations then project this is not an obe it is just a astral dream this also occurs from time to time.

the next level of obe is similar to the last but things are changed they are not the way they appear all the time, these are weaker experiences. During these experiences I have met many things some dark and some not, I am an atheist and have dabbled in many things, probably bringing on some of the nastiest things you can imagine, I never met the old hag but she would have been a girl scout compared to the other things lurking out there. during my time in the military after paralysis set in four dark demons would always grab onto my arms and legs and literally yank me out, and there were always others.

next is just a good old fashion astral projection romp on some other planet, swim with unknown fish or ride a tornado or two. These are interactive three dimensional views you can feel the rush of falling or flying but it is only a high tech dream. People can touch you and you would feel it, I have only had one bad experience during this type dream.

after that Is the dream I have never had a black and white, my dreams are all in color I can talk to people that I have never met, go where ever I want but this dream is only two dimensional and sometimes in second person where I am more hovering and limited interaction.
 

Ahanu

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So are you saying that the benevolent races hold as much knowledge as your god. It is you that put god upon a pedestal as the all knowing, with this title he should give us half of his knowledge, if the advanced civ is imagined to have the same intelligence as your god than I ask the same of them as I would expect from your god. we must agree for future debates that these two entities have equal powers so not to confuse my words as being negative. Please tell me how these two measure up and this will set the stage for future talks.

I'm saying the advanced civ of the benevolent type and a benevolent God share two things: both have more knowledge than us and both have the power to intervene in human affairs and alleviate our suffering. I'm not suggesting both are equals in knowledge and power. As I said before, the advanced civ can always imagine something better than themselves, but for a perfect being there is nothing better to imagine.

The nano-tech thing is a small wrench in the gears as it proposes a plausible scenario, but most improbable, I don't believe that this is the case, for communication throughout the universe is much simpler then nano-tech.
Well, let me clarify the nanotech thing, and why I think it is very probable. I'm alluding to Von Neumann probes. I'm not a physicist. I'm assuming what the professionals in this field say are correct. Below we have not only Michio Kaku discussing that it is possible for space exploration, but also professionals in the International Journal of Astronomy. I hate to post long quotes, but I think it resolves the issue of probability. Here's some detailed info from io9.com:
Physicist Michio Kaku describes Von Neumann probes as "the most mathematically efficient method to explore space:"
A Von Neumann probe is a robot designed to reach distant star systems and create factories which will reproduce copies themselves by the thousands. A dead moon rather than a planet makes the ideal destination for Von Neumann probes, since they can easily land and take off from these moons, and also because these moons have no erosion. These probes would live off the land, using naturally occurring deposits of iron, nickel, etc. to create the raw ingredients to build a robot factory. They would create thousands of copies of themselves, which would then scatter and search for other star systems.​
In order to work, a von Neumann spacecraft would have to tap into advanced nanotechnology and artificial intelligence — technologies that advanced extraterrestrial civilizations are likely to develop. In fact, the device itself would be a molecular assembler, capable of reconstituting matter into copies of itself, which is why SRPs are also referred to as kinematic self-replicating machines.


And indeed, these probes would be remarkably efficient. A recent study published in the International Journal of Astronomy pointed out that extraterrestrial intelligences (ETIs) could use the slingshot effect to propel SRPs from star to star. And yes, that's the same method used to propel the Voyager spacecrafts through our solar system from planet to planet. For it to work on a galactic scale, however, SRPs would use slingshot maneuvers around stars, gaining a boost in velocity by extracting energy from each star's motion around the galactic center. The slingshot effect would carry little-to-no extra cost and result in a 100-fold increase in efficiency; models show that this technique could be used to send probes to every solar system in the galaxy in as little as 10 million years! Adding to the efficiency is the realization that SRPs could replicate on the fly, building duplicates of themselves while they're traveling. The probes would collect matter, like dust and gas, from the interstellar medium as they traverse vast distances.
How Self-Replicating Spacecraft Could Take Over the Galaxy

Very interesting ideas in that link, especially those uplift probes, which relate directly to what I'm inquiring. Notice the time estimate above? 10 million years. Assuming the estimate is correct, all you need is an advanced civ with a head start of a few million years. The advanced civ doesn't even have to be in our dimension for their tech to keep working since they can leave it behind.

Assuming advanced civs exist and can intervene to alleviate our suffering, why haven't they? Why do they allow it to exist? I find this question to be similar to the question of evil and why God allows it to exist. This is another reason why I brought up the aliens. We can turn the tables both ways. It brings us into all kinds of philosophical answers. For example, some thinkers have said this is the best of all possible worlds or some variation of the idea. And that seems to be the heart of the issue about God's existence being in conflict with some of the problems you have raised about ignorance, suffering, and evil.
 

powessy

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I'm saying the advanced civ of the benevolent type and a benevolent God share two things: both have more knowledge than us and both have the power to intervene in human affairs and alleviate our suffering. I'm not suggesting both are equals in knowledge and power. As I said before, the advanced civ can always imagine something better than themselves, but for a perfect being there is nothing better to imagine.

Do you see the problem here, the universe only has a predefined amount of stuff in it, there is a cap to the knowledge that can be learned so this means that any race or benevolent species can have access to all the available knowledge as well as your god. The knowledge of the universe is not infinite.


Well, let me clarify the nanotech thing, and why I think it is very probable. I'm alluding to Von Neumann probes. I'm not a physicist. I'm assuming what the professionals in this field say are correct. Below we have not only Michio Kaku discussing that it is possible for space exploration, but also professionals in the International Journal of Astronomy. I hate to post long quotes, but I think it resolves the issue of probability. Here's some detailed info from io9.com:

Thanks for the read. I am going to let you into my mind for a minute or so to show you what I think of this and why this is just not practical. I believe that these probes are a possibility in a deep well of possibilities but how practical are they.

Man has occupied the earth in this higher form of thinking for only the past 20,000 years. In the last 200 years man has, poisoned almost all of his water supplies, deforested almost all of its jungles, polluted all of it's oceans, pumps outrageous amounts of carbon dioxide into the air we breath, and continue to stock pile nuclear waste with half lives in the millions of years. How far will the first probe reach on the day the last man takes his last breath? I am going to venture that on the path we are currently under we may see the end within the next 100 or 200 years or so. people believe the earth is resilient and will recover this is probably true but what about this new bread of man are we destined to be the Romans or the Mayans in a post re-population and will these new occupants of earth learn from our mistakes. The best thing man could do is create a capsule full of information that will survive thousands of years of hard recovery to be found by this new world civ, telling them how not to destroy themselves. What good are these probes if no one is here to receive the news. On a worst case scenario it will take the 10 million years plus the return trip lets say the information can be passed along in half the time so just 15 million years, no problem. Even on the best estimates of half a million years we would still not see the return of our probes.

Even if man finds away to get past the next 100 or so years, how much or how many will be lost, the earth can not continue to exist under the continuous strain we are placing upon it.

lets try this, lets place the human factor variable to zero, meaning we find a solution to all of those nasty little problems we have. Lets say we send out our probes and we continue to evolve and our tech continues to evolve will we wait for the return of these probes, for in a million years we will surely be that advanced benevolent race.

Time is definitely a factor.


“The day science begins to study non-physical phenomena, it will make more progress in one decade than in all the previous centuries of its existence.”
- Nikola Tesla
Nikola Tesla (Author of My Inventions)
 

Ahanu

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Do you see the problem here, the universe only has a predefined amount of stuff in it, there is a cap to the knowledge that can be learned so this means that any race or benevolent species can have access to all the available knowledge as well as your god. The knowledge of the universe is not infinite.
I like the following Islamic tradition:
"God, exalted be He, fashioned one hundred thousand, thousand lamps and suspended the Throne, the earth, the heavens and whatsoever is between them, even Heaven and Hell -- all of these in a single lamp. And only God knows what is in the rest of the lamps."

I found it in Abdu'l-Baha's Tablet of the Universe, where he refers to this tradition as well-known. Above we have the idea God's creativity can't be exhausted. The creation is infinite: there was never a time the Creator never had a creation. With this in mind, attaining all knowledge is impossible for created beings.
 

Ahanu

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Thanks for the read. I am going to let you into my mind for a minute or so to show you what I think of this and why this is just not practical. I believe that these probes are a possibility in a deep well of possibilities but how practical are they.

They are very practical if they exist. An advanced civ of the benevolent type with the will to intervene can directly influence our evolution on Earth with uplift probes:
Probes could also work to transform and "uplift" other civilizations and their citizens. This scenario was explored in 2001: A Space Odyssey in which an advanced extraterrestrial civilization used probes (called monoliths) to steer the direction of evolution on Earth. In the story, these probes endowed primates with the capacity to use tools, and later, the human David Bowman was transformed into the next stage of evolution, the so-called Star Child.

This scenario was also explored in David Brin's Uplift series in which advanced civilizations brought sapience to primitive life forms — what's more accurately termed biological uplift.

Also conceivable is technological or civilizational uplift in which an extraterrestrial intelligence brings an entire civilization up to its own advanced level. Motivations for doing so could involve meta-ethical imperatives meant to reduce suffering, to prevent civilizations from destroying themselves, or to ensure the safe onset of non-threatening post-Singularity intelligences. Or, it could be part of their plan to take over the Galaxy.

Uplift probes could quickly bring a civilization to a post-Singularity, postbiological condition. Such a force might appear as a colonization wave that sweeps across the Galaxy, transforming all that it touches into computronium. Such a scenario has been projected by such thinkers as Hans Moravec and Ray Kurzweil.
 

Ahanu

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Man has occupied the earth in this higher form of thinking for only the past 20,000 years. In the last 200 years man has, poisoned almost all of his water supplies, deforested almost all of its jungles, polluted all of it's oceans, pumps outrageous amounts of carbon dioxide into the air we breath, and continue to stock pile nuclear waste with half lives in the millions of years. How far will the first probe reach on the day the last man takes his last breath? I am going to venture that on the path we are currently under we may see the end within the next 100 or 200 years or so. people believe the earth is resilient and will recover this is probably true but what about this new bread of man are we destined to be the Romans or the Mayans in a post re-population and will these new occupants of earth learn from our mistakes. The best thing man could do is create a capsule full of information that will survive thousands of years of hard recovery to be found by this new world civ, telling them how not to destroy themselves. What good are these probes if no one is here to receive the news. On a worst case scenario it will take the 10 million years plus the return trip lets say the information can be passed along in half the time so just 15 million years, no problem. Even on the best estimates of half a million years we would still not see the return of our probes.

My point is probes have millions of years to arrive during our evolutionary timeline before our ancestors experienced such tremendous suffering.
 

Ahanu

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First, As a kid growing up I was in a couple accidents. The first one me and my friends were drinking and decided to sit on top of the hood of a car. The driver was under aged and took off unexpectedly reaching the speeds of over 50 miles per hour, she lost control on loose gravel. I watched my friends be thrown from the hood of the car as I remained there. Time almost froze, I could think and see every detail as it unfolded, I am still haunted by this accident, This has happened several times more in my life but in different scenarios, where time just almost completely stopped.

The experts say it has to do with high levels of adrenalin. So for the highest level obe experiences I have had, this is what it feels like my heart races to who knows what( like being in that accident) then it seems as though time stops no vibrations no paralysis everything is the same around me except, This is where I first met both of my sons and both of my daughters prior to their births, I also met both of my guides here. Other then the sensation that time stopped everything else is the same.

Tragic story. Your personal experience is also interesting.

Once I return I almost always go into astral projection.

Besides an article or two, I haven't read much on outer body experiences, but I vaguely remember watching an episode of Through the Wormhole with Morgan Freemen that involved a God Helmet that can induce OBE.
 

powessy

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I like the following Islamic tradition:
"God, exalted be He, fashioned one hundred thousand, thousand lamps and suspended the Throne, the earth, the heavens and whatsoever is between them, even Heaven and Hell -- all of these in a single lamp. And only God knows what is in the rest of the lamps."

I found it in Abdu'l-Baha's Tablet of the Universe, where he refers to this tradition as well-known. Above we have the idea God's creativity can't be exhausted. The creation is infinite: there was never a time the Creator never had a creation. With this in mind, attaining all knowledge is impossible for created beings.


Hello Ahanu

There is also the more common saying " only god knows how many apples are in an apple seed." I believe that both of these sayings are of little significance, even man can comprehend infinity and all the possibilities that are presented within it's scope of understanding, it is only time that limits our ability to imagine. Just because something created something else in no way entitles it to unfathomable knowledge. I can imagine all the things you can say that he is capable of, plus much more, is there any time that I no longer can imagine this greatness. As a child my father in a drunken stupor would both mentally and psychically adjust us to his ways of thinking. He would tell us he was the only god we needed to worship, there was no other. I resented him for years until the resentment turned to pity and then to resolve and then finally internal peace. Both of my parents had limited educations and you could say they in all tense and purposes created me. My intelligence in my belief, is at a much higher state then their combined knowledge is. Is it not possible for the created to outsmart or to hold more intelligence then the creator. Age is also a type of intelligence where we have learned through experience, perhaps this is the knowledge you speak of?


The uplift probes are imaginable but I question the practicability of them even after reading the i09 links, pretty cool ideas though, I am a Si-fy fan. I still believe there are faster ways of communication throughout the universe and means of travel then these probes, I just don't believe we are at the evolutionary level to perceive them yet. In my last post I mentioned using a time capsule, the idea here is if a capsule was to be used to save our advancement due to our impending doom, where would be the best place to hide such a capsule that would outlast thousands if not millions of years of hard recovery, for everything known to man would simply not make it, man will destroy himself. The next question is at what time during their new evolution do you step forward with this information? I don't believe the nano tech would survive this time period ether, their are millions of planetary scenario that could separate or destroy such tech, ex. ice ages, continental drifts, active volcanoes, and many other extreme factors. I realize that sense these probes are self replicating only one needs to reach earth or a near by star, but then we are faced with the Fermi's Parodox Fermi's Paradox which asks where is everyone then, these advanced benevolent race's?
If the universe is billions of years old and advanced races are unable to contact us, you would think god would have this capability, where is he then?



Besides an article or two, I haven't read much on outer body experiences, but I vaguely remember watching an episode of Through the Wormhole with Morgan Freemen that involved a God Helmet that can induce OBE.


I watched this also, but the helmet gave the wearer the feeling of the existence of god by applying magnetic pulses which disrupted both cerebral hemispheres of the brain. These tests were never duplicated and have since been discredited. If you wish to read more on this here are a few sites that give different accounts of this phenomenon. David Icke , OBE Forum , Project Avalon Community Forum ,
Spirit Science Forums • Index page and there are many
more.
 

Ahanu

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As a child my father in a drunken stupor would both mentally and psychically adjust us to his ways of thinking. He would tell us he was the only god we needed to worship, there was no other. I resented him for years until the resentment turned to pity and then to resolve and then finally internal peace. Both of my parents had limited educations and you could say they in all tense and purposes created me. My intelligence in my belief, is at a much higher state then their combined knowledge is. Is it not possible for the created to outsmart or to hold more intelligence then the creator.

It is possible when you're considering differences in degrees rather than kind. You're chalking up a false analogy.

Earlier you wrote:
I have no feelings nor need for a god, nor will I ever accept this idea, for logic out weights imagination.
Mainly because of the words I read above, I am under the impression that you suggested only people with their heads in the clouds would believe in God, but isn't it reasonable to infer intelligence in the order of the universe since it is intelligible? After all, I assume we--meaning you and I as atheist and theist--can at least agree language is intelligible because of an intelligent speaker or a device made by an intelligent speaker. The speaker becomes increasingly intelligent through recognizing increasingly complex order. A rational proof of God is in an ordered universe.
 

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It is possible when you're considering differences in degrees rather than kind. You're chalking up a false analogy.

Earlier you wrote:
I have no feelings nor need for a god, nor will I ever accept this idea, for logic out weights imagination.
Mainly because of the words I read above, I am under the impression that you suggested only people with their heads in the clouds would believe in God, but isn't it reasonable to infer intelligence in the order of the universe since it is intelligible? After all, I assume we--meaning you and I as atheist and theist--can at least agree language is intelligible because of an intelligent speaker or a device made by an intelligent speaker. The speaker becomes increasingly intelligent through recognizing increasingly complex order. A rational proof of God is in an ordered universe.

I do not hold any opinion of those that wish to follow the word of god, I simply will not believe in such things. The more order that I see in the universe the more we see it follows the basic principals of matter and gravity, there are those things we can not see yet, but in time they to will come to show that things are simply the way they should be. If believing in a god brings you peace and strength then by all means, I only have concluded that I can find this strength within myself and require no such strings.

In an ordered universe my purpose should also have reason a direction, so why do we who stand on two different sides of the same coin and believe in two distinctly different paths hold no answers between us. If god was to come to earth today and announce his arrival how much proof would you need to believe this was actually god? From the bible those that spoke to god spoke to them in their minds or only showed himself to them and them alone because they were the chosen. There are thousands of these people walking around new york and else where, are they all god or his messengers, and how will I know for sure. The accounts of these visits never implied super human abilities and sometimes he asked them to do unquestionable things, to prove their loyalties, how far would you go for this god depicted by the bible?

Perhaps it isn't god that I am so much questioning but perhaps it is the bible that leaves this awful taste in my mouth, for it is this god I want nothing to do with.

The bible is also an intelligent speaker, perhaps with an agenda that will ultimately destroy us.
 

powessy

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Tried to edit but kicked me out, the added text is in bold.


I do not hold any opinion of those that wish to follow the word of god, I simply will not believe in such things. The more order that I see in the universe the more we see it follows the basic principals of matter and gravity, there are those things we can not see yet, but in time they to will come to show that things are simply the way they should be. If believing in a god brings you peace and strength then by all means, I only have concluded that I can find this strength within myself and require no such strings. Next time you are reading through the bible put a check mark next to the paragraph that seems plausible and put an x next to the paragraph that appears questionable or is immoral, then look up these questionable paragraphs and there origins. How many paragraphs or sentences do you think will have check marks by them? The check marks are logic and the x's are imagination together you will see logic out weights imagination.
 

powessy

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Tried to edit but kicked me out, the added text is in bold.


I do not hold any opinion of those that wish to follow the word of god, I simply will not believe in such things. The more order that I see in the universe the more we see it follows the basic principals of matter and gravity, there are those things we can not see yet, but in time they to will come to show that things are simply the way they should be. If believing in a god brings you peace and strength then by all means, I only have concluded that I can find this strength within myself and require no such strings. Next time you are reading through the bible put a check mark next to the paragraph that seems plausible and put an x next to the paragraph that appears questionable or is immoral, then look up these questionable paragraphs and there origins. How many paragraphs or sentences do you think will have check marks by them? The check marks are logic and the x's are imagination together you will see logic out weights imagination.

and what I mean by logic out weights imagination is that there is way more imagination going on then actual logic, just thought I needed to clarify this.
 

Gordian Knot

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Ahanu said"A rational proof of God is in an ordered universe."

Unfortunately, the universe is anything but ordered. Quite the opposite actually. It is a chaotic, random place. This does not prove or disprove God; just pointing out an error in your statement.
 

Ahanu

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Ahanu said"A rational proof of God is in an ordered universe."

Unfortunately, the universe is anything but ordered. Quite the opposite actually. It is a chaotic, random place.

If the universe is anything but ordered, science would be impossible. If the universe is obviously anything but ordered as you seem to imply, belief in an orderly universe wouldn't be assumed among experts in various fields. As mathematician Alfred Whitehead noted: “There can be no living science unless there is a widespread instinctive conviction in the existence of an Order of Things. And, in particular, of an Order of Nature.” While reading Ernst Mayr's Systematics and the Origin of the Species, the well-known biologist E.O. Wilson also noted that he felt "a belief in the unity of the sciences—a conviction, far deeper than a mere working proposition, that the world is orderly and can be explained by a small number of natural laws." Physicist Stephen Hawking similarly says: "The more we discover about the universe, the more we find that it is governed by rational laws." Astrobiologist Paul Davies asserts: "Doing science means figuring out what is going on in the world–what the universe is 'up to', what it is 'about.' If it isn't 'about' anything, there would be no good reason to embark on the scientific quest in the first place, because we would have no justification for believing that we would thereby uncover additional coherent and meaningful facts about the world. Experience shows that as we dig deeper and deeper using scientific methods, we continue to find rational and meaningful order. The universe makes sense. We can comprehend it."
 

Ahanu

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The uplift probes are imaginable but I question the practicability of them even after reading the i09 links, pretty cool ideas though, I am a Si-fy fan. I still believe there are faster ways of communication throughout the universe and means of travel then these probes, I just don't believe we are at the evolutionary level to perceive them yet.

Okay.

In my last post I mentioned using a time capsule, the idea here is if a capsule was to be used to save our advancement due to our impending doom, where would be the best place to hide such a capsule that would outlast thousands if not millions of years of hard recovery, for everything known to man would simply not make it, man will destroy himself.

So you're suggesting hiding a time capsule on Earth. Yes, that's a kool idea too.

The next question is at what time during their new evolution do you step forward with this information?

What do you think?

I realize that sense these probes are self replicating only one needs to reach earth or a near by star, but then we are faced with the Fermi's Parodox Fermi's Paradox which asks where is everyone then, these advanced benevolent race's?

As I shared earlier, perhaps they view intervention as damaging to our development. Just my speculation.

If the universe is billions of years old and advanced races are unable to contact us, you would think god would have this capability, where is he then?

Good question. Why do we suffer? Where is God in all of this? I'm still researching various answers myself.

:)
 

powessy

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So you're suggesting hiding a time capsule on Earth. Yes, that's a kool idea too.
What do you think?

As for the time capsule I can only think of a few places that might withstand the many years of hard recovery, The moon, both north and south poles and perhaps high elevation mountain ranges. I would search these places first for signals. I think if we failed as a civilization in some past earth experience these would be places to start the search for this information, it will not be easy to find for man must be at a level to comprehend this message. I think these places would also be good areas to search for messages from advanced benevolent races.

Good question. Why do we suffer? Where is God in all of this? I'm still researching various answers myself.

I was reading a thread from another site the other day and came upon the name "pleiadians" this is a group of people that believe that the earth was a test to see how life would evolve on earth. They believe the earth was to have no contact or outside intervention and this has been so for three hundred thousand years. What if the reason we suffer is to see how we over come suffering without the help from any benevolent races?
 

Nothingtoknow

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Ahanu said"A rational proof of God is in an ordered universe."

Unfortunately, the universe is anything but ordered. Quite the opposite actually. It is a chaotic, random place. This does not prove or disprove God; just pointing out an error in your statement.

The universe is neither 'orderly' nor 'chaotic'.
It is what it is.
Is it not interpreted as orderly or chaotic by the human mind.
 
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