Final Warning Given Unto Mankind, Tribulation Is Near and Soon Cometh.

powessy

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No, because just as you and I acquire more perfections, the advanced civilization acquires more perfections too. Perfections are endless. In my view a civilization can't just sublime (to use Iain Banks' science fiction term), evaporating into an absolute condition of perfection since God alone is absolute perfection and separate from creation. If they could, that would make them independent of God. We would then have two Gods! When you look at a ruby, a rose, or a nightingale, you can always imagine something better within each kingdom of existence. Since this advanced civ has the power of reason, I could classify it into the human kingdom. This advanced civ, according to my view, can imagine something better than themselves, but they can never know what absolute perfection is like. In my view perfections are endless and the creation is endless too, for the Creator is absolute perfection, eternal, and immutable.



No, because one can always imagine a harder test of knowledge. The participant that scores the highest doesn't reveal absolute knowledge since the test can't test absolute knowledge.

Ahanu

I then only have a few more things to say regarding this discussion, if this god you hold in such high regard and is the highest of the highest in terms of everything, then why us? Is it to prove ignorance does exist? In light of this great intelligence are we mere protozoa in all aspects? Why create a species of life that is so beneath it's self? I love to hold conversations with people of like mindedness and tend to avoid talking to rocks, for I can not gain intellect or meaningful conversation with them. Why would it want to stand so far above the rest if it could create what ever it wanted? Does it fear reproach by it's creations, is it to keep us simple, clueless and stupid where is the intelligence in that? The problem with this argument in it's entirety is that, it has given no proof of this intelligence that can not be explained by science, why the misdirection?
 

Aupmanyav

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What I mean by this is "religion A" who is aware of the teachings of "religion B" but has not practiced or lived "religion B" concepts, can say that you only see illusion because you are not seeing "religion A" concepts clearly, and vice versa. The observer is someone that has spent there whole life practicing their religion and the non-observer is only aware of the basic principals of the other religion.
Oh! You mean that one could have moved mountains if one had faith. A good escape window. You could have got rid of your blindness if you had faith, or cancer, or regrown an amputed limb. But, alas, you do not have faith. Something like that. There is a hell and you can escape it only if you accept Jesus as the anointed Son of God. Too many suppositions for me - hell, God, son of virgin birth.
 

Ahanu

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I then only have a few more things to say regarding this discussion, if this god you hold in such high regard and is the highest of the highest in terms of everything, then why us? Is it to prove ignorance does exist? In light of this great intelligence are we mere protozoa in all aspects? Why create a species of life that is so beneath it's self? I love to hold conversations with people of like mindedness and tend to avoid talking to rocks, for I can not gain intellect or meaningful conversation with them. Why would it want to stand so far above the rest if it could create what ever it wanted? Does it fear reproach by it's creations, is it to keep us simple, clueless and stupid where is the intelligence in that?

In other words, you're asking, "Why didn't God create us equal with Itself if It's so powerful?" This is impossible. It's like asking, "Can God--the only uncreated being--create other uncreated beings?" The question doesn't make sense. To be equal with God, one can't be created.

Why us? There's an interesting Islamic tradition that goes like this: "I was a Hidden Treasure and loved to be known. Therefore I created the Creation that I might be known." Baha'u'llah also writes: "The purpose of God in creating man hath been, and will ever be, to enable him to know his Creator and to attain His Presence. To this most excellent aim, this supreme objective, all the heavenly Books and the divinely-revealed and weighty Scriptures unequivocally bear witness." So, from my worldview, if God wishes to keep us simple and clueless and stupid, It wouldn't have enabled us to know It. Progress would be impossible.

The problem with this argument in it's entirety is that, it has given no proof of this intelligence that can not be explained by science, why the misdirection?
I don't understand what you're saying here. Examples, please? I didn't know our discussion was in the realm of science, considering it is self-limited.
 

powessy

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In other words, you're asking, "Why didn't God create us equal with Itself if It's so powerful?" This is impossible. It's like asking, "Can God--the only uncreated being--create other uncreated beings?" The question doesn't make sense. To be equal with God, one can't be created.

Why us? There's an interesting Islamic tradition that goes like this: "I was a Hidden Treasure and loved to be known. Therefore I created the Creation that I might be known." Baha'u'llah also writes: "The purpose of God in creating man hath been, and will ever be, to enable him to know his Creator and to attain His Presence. To this most excellent aim, this supreme objective, all the heavenly Books and the divinely-revealed and weighty Scriptures unequivocally bear witness." So, from my worldview, if God wishes to keep us simple and clueless and stupid, It wouldn't have enabled us to know It. Progress would be impossible.

I don't understand what you're saying here. Examples, please? I didn't know our discussion was in the realm of science, considering it is self-limited.

Ahanu

There are many gods and philosophies, did he wish us to believe in these other gods to? The christian religion has been divided into thousands of denominations all saying they know the true word of god, which one is the real slim shady? A god whether uncreated or not has the ability to create any level of being, why the gap? if your god is on one end of the spectrum, we of course are on the opposite end according to his divine imagined abilities. Man has always believed in some higher power all dating back to the earliest of man, and all these gods have been as mighty as your god, why then do you believe in the christian god, how is he so special? The bible has been written and rewritten hundreds of times over, the meanings diluted to fit a growing society all to muster attendance and obedience and to line the pockets of greedy men, I would not give a dime to help these organizations nor will I accept anything from them.

Why do people need something of a higher power to believe in, is it a weakness of the mind? I have no feelings nor need for a god, nor will I ever accept this idea, for logic out weights imagination. I do realize most people are scared when it comes to standing on their own two feet, and I can understand their need to believe in something filling the void for those end day thoughts, but how is god going to help you? Almost every person on earth will agree that the ski is blue this is a simple and clear observation, why is it not such a clear observation about the mightiest power to ever grace mankind or the universe.

It is not my intentions to turn this conversation towards science, though it is through science that man has made his greatest strides in understanding and discovery about our place here on earth more information then your god or the bible and church has done for mankind. example evolution, gravity, the whole sun and universe revolving around the earth debacle, or a flat earth how many examples do you need. How many times can one group be continuously wrong about everything, perhaps as long as you can keep placing your god on higher and higher pedestals, man will surly remain blind.
 

Ahanu

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A god whether uncreated or not has the ability to create any level of being, why the gap?

Let's stick with one topic at a time. You threw a lot out there in your last post.

Perhaps this will provide some clarification: On Earth you can't weigh 150 pounds and also weigh 300 pounds at the same time. If so, it would violate the law of non-contradiction. Similary, having no gap and enabling the creation to become the Creator would violate the law of non-contradiction: It would mean you exist before you exist. It's logically impossible.
 

Gordian Knot

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Meaning something exists before it exists, if logically impossible, would also preclude a God would it not? If the law of non-contradiction were inviolate.

But then non-contradiction also precludes the Universe as well, far as I can see. Quantum gobbledygook aside.....
 

Ahanu

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Meaning something exists before it exists, if logically impossible, would also preclude a God would it not?

God is different in kind than John, for example, so, no, there isn't a violation of the LNC since it doesn't apply to God here: There never was a time when God didn't exist; however, there was a time when John didn't exist.
 

A Cup Of Tea

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Almost every person on earth will agree that the ski is blue this is a simple and clear observation, why is it not such a clear observation about the mightiest power to ever grace mankind or the universe.

Not necessarily, the colour scheme of ancient Greece was very different from our own. We might all agree with each other now, but that doesn't make it less subjective.

Also, what is considered the greatest discoveries is opinion and I don't think it should be considered as proof for anything. Science stand on its legs and religion on its own. I don't see the need for comparison.
 

powessy

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Let's stick with one topic at a time. You threw a lot out there in your last post.

Perhaps this will provide some clarification: On Earth you can't weigh 150 pounds and also weigh 300 pounds at the same time. If so, it would violate the law of non-contradiction. Similary, having no gap and enabling the creation to become the Creator would violate the law of non-contradiction: It would mean you exist before you exist. It's logically impossible.

Ahanu

As a small child I can remember getting into arguments that would always lead to someone exclaiming how great they were, till the point they were millions of times greater then the others highest comprehension, in this case it is your so called god and the believers keep increasing this fictional power. I wouldn't want to ascend as high as your so called god, but would it be asking to much for it in all it's divine power to grant humanity with even half of this intelligence, Why is this so out of order, it is always all or none with this type of discussion. As far as non-contradiction goes are you referring to the chicken and the egg, the only way this works is if the chicken was not always a chicken something less evolved, this is allot like your belief in god, it only started with an idea but look how big it has become. Your god does have a beginning, 313 AD when Constantine declared it a religion for selfish reasons and power to stop early christian uprisings, what if he(Constantine) chose another path, would we be having this conversation regarding this god, or would we be speaking of something else.

A Cup Of Tea

There is a philosopher in the crowd, I use science lightly here only to provide examples to Ahanu, in which she requested. I never stated that these were the greatest discoveries but mere strides forward in our understanding of the world around us. I also stated carefully (considering this philosophical response) that "ALMOST" every person on earth would agree that the ski is blue with a small portion of the population unaware, misguided or oblivious to this fact an acceptable variance. My point here is that more people are aware the ski is blue then there are believers in this god, and if prompted to point at the blue ski one would point up to it, so where would they point if asked where god is, would they all point to the same place.
 

A Cup Of Tea

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I never stated that these were the greatest discoveries but mere strides forward in our understanding of the world around us.

You wrote "about our place here on earth", by that you mean the physical location then? Well religion isn't, in it's nature, very interested in those things. Some are, but I think that should be discussed in case by case, not as a given function of religion in general.
Religions have had opinions on it and their reactions to opposing thought have many times been [seen in our modern perspective] as barbaric and cruel. Good thing some things have changed, and they have, that's the point I'm trying to make: where do we separate culture from religion? No Christian church burns witches any more, why is that?
I think science should stick to explaining things sciency and religion should stick to the religiousiusly-thingys. We agree there right?

I also stated carefully (considering this philosophical response) that "ALMOST" every person on earth would agree that the ski is blue with a small portion of the population unaware, misguided or oblivious to this fact an acceptable variance.
You assume everyone who don't think the sky is blue we in some way ignorant, right? I assume that some things, like colour, aren't distinct concepts that exists independently from the people observing it. My example with Homers texts from Greece pointed to the fact that some languages and/or cultures don't/didn't have the same distinct sets of colours to describe the world around them. It is simply words agreed upon by a group to describe the world around them.

Being somewhat fluent in two languages I often find that words often get in the way of understanding what someone means. Both the writer and the reader needs to have a wide vocabulary and the ability to read between the lines.

My point here is that more people are aware the ski is blue then there are believers in this god, and if prompted to point at the blue ski one would point up to it, so where would they point if asked where god is, would they all point to the same place.

This I don't know what you're trying to say, would you kindly rephrase?
 

powessy

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You wrote "about our place here on earth", by that you mean the physical location then? Well religion isn't, in it's nature, very interested in those things. Some are, but I think that should be discussed in case by case, not as a given function of religion in general.
Religions have had opinions on it and their reactions to opposing thought have many times been [seen in our modern perspective] as barbaric and cruel. Good thing some things have changed, and they have, that's the point I'm trying to make: where do we separate culture from religion? No Christian church burns witches any more, why is that?
I think science should stick to explaining things sciency and religion should stick to the religiousiusly-thingys. We agree there right?

A Cup Of Tea
I concur that science should stick to science, and religion should stick to religion stuffs. The reason I chose to mingle these two fields is to show that religion has constantly went down the wrong path, It has built and destroyed things in it's wake, all in the name of a god that is supposedly all powerful and loving. The bible puts it's own twist on hind sight wouldn't you say?


You assume everyone who don't think the sky is blue we in some way ignorant, right? I assume that some things, like colour, aren't distinct concepts that exists independently from the people observing it. My example with Homers texts from Greece pointed to the fact that some languages and/or cultures don't/didn't have the same distinct sets of colours to describe the world around them. It is simply words agreed upon by a group to describe the world around them.

I make no assumptions regarding this analogy, I used the word unaware to represent groups that fit those descriptions you are referring to, misguided to represent those groups that clearly are being deceived for some personal reason(a long shot here) and oblivious to count for the groups that take no intrest in naming or identifying things(who ever they might be).

Lets take this one step further then to try and explain my point. Lets pretend, I was born in 1970 and on my 20th birthday a voice came to me, to tell all the people of the world the sky is blue. I began to form a group to help me spread the word for the word is one that will set the world at peace. I force others to see the ski for its true blueness. This new group of enlightened ski seers grows larger and larger and anyone not agreeing with my description of the ski is killed(including the blind), tortured or converted. Pretty soon all the people of the world will know of my blue ski and will live to tell of my fairness and greatness in spreading the word of the ski. The ski can take on many shades, sometimes these shades are not blue but signs of weather, anger, destruction, love and calmness but the greatest color the ski can bestow on man is blue. Now that everyone on this planet is completely set on the same page as to the color of the ski and where it is located, this discussion now has set parameters untethered to past ideologies or beliefs.

Early man worshiped the sun, moon, ski, volcanoes and anything else that could be visually observed, this is the simple point that I am trying to make.

God is not observed, and it is not even felt or necessary and is as silly as believing in the sun, moon, ski, and volcanoes the only difference is the latter group of gods hold some real worldly power all of which can be seen felt and heard. So now with these parameters set I come to you(A cup of tea) and ask where is the blue ski located, I will assume you will point up, and my next question will be where is god, will you also point up, or were do you think it is?

it is not my intentions to continue to debate over a simple color since there are no absolutes other then death(this is also questionable). I do ask for some leniency so to make my point given that a more then acceptable group of people would agree with the statement "the ski is blue".

Being somewhat fluent in two languages I often find that words often get in the way of understanding what someone means. Both the writer and the reader needs to have a wide vocabulary and the ability to read between the lines.

My oldest son is also fluent in two languages(English, Spanish) and has dabbled in several others including Japanese, Koren and Latin he likes to explore the origins of languages. I will stick to English there is still much for me to learn of this language. my son talks to me often of other languages and their grammatical structure perhaps this is the greatest barrier between our languages, I do try to read between the lines often remaining in the gray as much as posable.


This I don't know what you're trying to say, would you kindly rephrase?

I hope I answered this adequately enough in the previous parts of this posting.
 

A Cup Of Tea

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Fair warning, I'm casting a wide net because I'm not sure where you are. Just pick out the discussion that is relevant to your point.
The reason I chose to mingle these two fields is to show that religion has constantly went down the wrong path
I really don't know where to start here, I think we will have to go back and forth before we find common ground on this one. I'll start.

You seem to use the word 'religion' to encompass a lot of things, which makes it hard sometimes to understand what you actually mean. To start somewhere I'll assume, for now, that you mean the many different organisations that have existed over the years. I will further assume 'down the wrong path' means 'the world is flat'. And yes, people belonging to such organisations had the wrong idea about such things until they were proven wrong. And I'm totally with you that during periods such organisations would gladly ignore new findings because..maybe they were prideful, or didn't understand, or they were more interested in stability then being correct. I don't know and probably never will.

So in that way, yes, 'religion' has constantly been down the wrong path. But this is true about science as well. Theories are assumed to be correct until proven wrong. They always explained the world better then the ideas before, but our understanding has never been complete, it might never be. But they are not the same, they aren't interested in the same things. Religion have components of science within it, but it concerns itself with a great many other things as well. Religion as an organisation reflects the people it's made up of. Science on the other hand is a lean and mean system only concerned with building an understanding of the physical space we occupy. It is single minded and very good at what it does.

The bible puts it's own twist on hind sight wouldn't you say?
I don't think so, how does a book put a twist on something?

I used the word unaware to represent groups that fit those descriptions you are referring to
Nope, I think you just don't understand my point. The group I was talking about wasn't unaware. Being unaware assumes there is a correct way of seeing things, and my point was that there isn't always one.

Now that everyone on this planet is completely set on the same page as to the color of the ski and where it is located, this discussion now has set parameters untethered to past ideologies or beliefs.
I don't understand the point you're trying to make, and it might be because I don't understand this part?

Early man worshiped the sun, moon, ski, volcanoes and anything else that could be visually observed, this is the simple point that I am trying to make...
...and is as silly as believing in the sun, moon, ski, and volcanoes
I don't think it's silly at all, and think it is very natural to try and appease the powers that you are at the mercy of. I understand why it wouldn't make much of a difference, but I have thousands of years of accumulated knowledge at my disposal.

No matter how natural it is for you and me now, don't you think people in two hundred years will laugh at our silly notions of time and space. They still work fine for the lives we live.

God is not observed, and it is not even felt or necessary...
Well this is just an unnecessary statement that a matter of opinion and perspective since it is completely unprovable. You only prove your prejudice here.

my next question will be where is god, will you also point up, or were do you think it is?
Here you assume that religion holds that god exists over our head. The organisation that lives in your backyard might. But I don't know how relevant that is to discussion on religion as a whole.

I do ask for some leniency so to make my point given that a more then acceptable group of people would agree with the statement "the ski is blue".
Sure, but I don't understand why that is relevant?
 

powessy

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Fair warning, I'm casting a wide net because I'm not sure where you are. Just pick out the discussion that is relevant to your point.

I will try to be more specific so such a net is not necessary.

I really don't know where to start here, I think we will have to go back and forth before we find common ground on this one. I'll start.

You seem to use the word 'religion' to encompass a lot of things, which makes it hard sometimes to understand what you actually mean. To start somewhere I'll assume, for now, that you mean the many different organisations that have existed over the years. I will further assume 'down the wrong path' means 'the world is flat'. And yes, people belonging to such organisations had the wrong idea about such things until they were proven wrong. And I'm totally with you that during periods such organisations would gladly ignore new findings because..maybe they were prideful, or didn't understand, or they were more interested in stability then being correct. I don't know and probably never will.

My definition of religion is simply any group or groups that worship a god or gods. A god is any being that is said to have super human capabilities and that requires men to follow them for any reason, period.

I will further assume 'down the wrong path' means 'the world is flat'. And yes, people belonging to such organizations had the wrong idea about such things until they were proven wrong. And I'm totally with you that during periods such organizations would gladly ignore new findings because..maybe they were prideful, or didn't understand, or they were more interested in stability then being correct. I don't know and probably never will.
So in that way, yes, 'religion' has constantly been down the wrong path.

Here is where we differ on this conversation and I think is the real core of my problem. The bible was created and written by men, it tells of great and outlandish stories all of which have never been proven or reproduced in any way shape or form, I can procure many examples if wished. There is said to be 124000 prophets all messengers of god so what happened to the messages? how did so many messengers mess up gods divine words? Why is it that so many people that say they are the messengers of god have been so completely wrong, forget pride and misunderstanding this is god we are talking about and the holiest of men recanting his words. I wonder how many people have died because of these rantings and beliefs instilled by these holiest of men.

But this is true about science as well. Theories are assumed to be correct until proven wrong. They always explained the world better then the ideas before, but our understanding has never been complete, it might never be. But they are not the same, they aren't interested in the same things. Religion have components of science within it, but it concerns itself with a great many other things as well. Religion as an organization reflects the people it's made up of. Science on the other hand is a lean and mean system only concerned with building an understanding of the physical space we occupy. It is single minded and very good at what it does.

Science has indeed had it's ups and downs but like you have said they are only theories till proven wrong. It is not my intentions to defend science I only used it to verify inaccuracies written in the bible by supposedly the holiest of men. Science is focused, but I believe religion is even more so in its practice. Science is far from single minded it covers many fields and intertwines itself into our everyday life, pharmaceuticals, plastics, electricity, anatomy, physics, space, agriculture and many many many more this is far from single minded. Religion is very single minded it establishes belief into a single god and the preaching of words from a not in your best intentions bible. The bible can tell me about love and hate but when it comes to facts there are just none to be found. how is it that a single verse from the bible can be used for any occasion, this tells me that allot of time has been spent writing and rewriting the words so to have no meaning at all. I have heard the same words uttered at a funeral as it was at a wedding, do the words of the bible hold no specific purpose or meaning.

I don't think so, how does a book put a twist on something?

I speak of hind site here when one looks back and see's a clearer path that should have been taken. I realize this is a fact of all things but we are not talking of all things it is the almighty religion and god that is in question. the bible tells that homosexuality, divorce, atheism, greed, killing is a sin but now the church has embraced it, is this not a twist, how about stoning, well almost everyone to death for some reason or another but now we accept and forgive. If the words of the holiest of prophets are ignored and the bible is the book to follow, which words are we then to follow if all the words of the bible are ignored.

Nope, I think you just don't understand my point. The group I was talking about wasn't unaware. Being unaware assumes there is a correct way of seeing things, and my point was that there isn't always one.

I see where you are coming from here but isn't this where translation comes forward. Archeologists for decades have been studying ruins and hieroglyphics to study the nature of earlier man. This allows us to understand with a high amount of accuracy the meanings and thoughts of these early groups even with limited letters or symbols. I believe even though these groups had limited writing abilities the ski would have still been blue. When a new word has been discovered in today's age typically it is a word that is used most common, regardless of others knowledge of said word and still becomes a word despite others unawareness of it. I realize there are many languages but aren't languages developed to establish communication and to describe things around them. It is difficult for me to believe there is a group ever, that had such a limited vocabulary as to not define the color blue. Perhaps a desert dwelling group may have never seen purple or red before and did not necessary need to define it, but the color blue is seen in all cases regardless of your origins.



I don't understand the point you're trying to make, and it might be because I don't understand this part?
this discussion now has set parameters untethered to past ideologies or beliefs

This is only referring to this new civilization, the one that has had all persons removed that would not conform to the fact the ski was blue.

'The parameters are clear they are the set of rules put down by the keepers of the blue ski, and
Past ideologies are those who had different beliefs other then the ski being blue.

I don't think it's silly at all, and think it is very natural to try and appease the powers that you are at the mercy of. I understand why it wouldn't make much of a difference, but I have thousands of years of accumulated knowledge at my disposal.

This is simply were we differ and is the reason we will probably never agree in terms of this discussion. I will never bow or appease to any power regardless of what it is ( just don't tell my wife I said this)lol. I will not be a goat or sheep I am ME. I request no mercy nor do I request anything that I can not do for myself, so were does he fit in.

No matter how natural it is for you and me now, don't you think people in two hundred years will laugh at our silly notions of time and space. They still work fine for the lives we live.

Times are always a changing, I encourage change. I continue to evolve my thinking and continue to search for answers to this existence just none of them so far have lead me to believe in a god. Perhaps in two hundred years some sciency guy will break the bible code and find all the answers to the universe and the address to your so called god, I still would not care to be part of that. The bible though was written to be fact, at the time it was written, How do you evolve with these words and still believe in them as if they were gods. If god is all powerful shouldn't his words be followed to the letter, what kind of followers do not follow if indeed they believe.

Well this is just an unnecessary statement that a matter of opinion and perspective since it is completely unprovable. You only prove your prejudice here.

"God is not observed, and it is not even felt or necessary..."

This is not prejudice but a conclusion of my observations, how you take this statement is solely on you, it is not preconceived or directed towards anyone or any group. I am a true believer that the words of the bible help maintain a healthy society as long as they are interpreting the words and there meaning correctly. There are always lessons to be learned from all men and of course the bible I just tend to see them as lessons and only take from them knowledge that will see me evolve my understanding of life.

Here you assume that religion holds that god exists over our head. The organization that lives in your backyard might. But I don't know how relevant that is to discussion on religion as a whole.

I again do not assume where you or anyone else will point to when asked where god is. Some believe god is in everything some say he exists in their hearts and others say he awaits them in heaven, what is the right answer? If the words of god are so mighty and the answers are so clear this question should not be difficult to answer. Is it not relevant to know where your god awaits you? As for the organization in my back yard if they are to remain there they must be at least able to tell me where the blue ski is, and if they choose to believe in god they better have at least a clue as to where he resides or they will not be there for long.


Sure, but I don't understand why that is relevant?

Surly you see the relevance in this statement it addresses the fact that you are aware of a blue ski and it's location, but are not aware of the location of your god.
 

Ahanu

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Ahanu

I wouldn't want to ascend as high as your so called god, but would it be asking to much for it in all it's divine power to grant humanity with even half of this intelligence, Why is this so out of order, it is always all or none with this type of discussion.

Hi Powessy,

Let's bring your advanced aliens into the discussion again. You seem to believe such beings possibly exist. Me too! Assume they exist. Because they are so advanced, let's also assume they are benevolent too. Let's not stop there. Also assume they know of our existence. How come they don't save us from our own ignorance? Why not impart half of their intelligence on us? Perhaps we could download their knowledge into our brains Matrix style. Since an advanced alien civilization that possesses benevolence hasn't done this, they must not exist, for they let us continue in our self-destructing ignorance.

It seems you believe that, if benevolent advanced aliens exist, they should magically heal our pain and suffering, because lack of knowledge brings about suffering. I would like to bring the following story about suffering into the discussion:
A man found the cocoon of an emperor moth and took it home to watch it emerge. A few days later, a small opening appeared, and for several hours the moth struggled, suffered greatly, but couldn’t force its body past a certain point. Deciding to help it out, the man took the scissors and cut open the cocoon. The moth wiggled out easily, its body large and swollen, the wings small and shriveled. The man thought that in a few hours, the wings would spread out in their natural beauty, but they did not. Instead of developing into a creature free to fly the moth spent its life dragging around a swollen body and shriveled wings. The confining cocoon, the struggle and pain necessary to pass through the tiny opening are essential for forcing fluid from the body into the wings. The helpful snipping was actually cruel, stunting the development of the moth’s wings.

Ghadirian, A. M. (2012-08-16). Creative Dimensions of Suffering (Kindle Locations 972-977). BookMobile. Kindle Edition.
It seems logical to believe advanced alien civilizations of the benevolent type don't fulfill your wish because it would stunt the development of humanity.

Perhaps God, with all Its intelligence, sees wisdom in suffering.

Baha'u'llah wrote:
“O Son of Man! My calamity is My providence, outwardly it is fire and vengeance, but inwardly it is light and mercy."
 

powessy

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Hi Powessy,

Let's bring your advanced aliens into the discussion again. You seem to believe such beings possibly exist. Me too! Assume they exist. Because they are so advanced, let's also assume they are benevolent too. Let's not stop there. Also assume they know of our existence.

Ahanu
As the table turns, fare enough.
According to Dr Howard, of the university of Hawaii, said: 'our galaxy has 40 billion chances for life to get started and evolve.' These planets were all located through the Kepler mission launched in 2009, so the chances are pretty good that life exists within our galaxy. Just because something exists, in no way should we assume they are advanced at least not all of them, look at us. Why would I assume that all races that are more advanced then us are benevolent, this is a stretch. I believe that with the criteria that you have set there is still a pretty good chance that these worlds and societies exists, so I will play along.

Lets start out by defining some basic dimensions, we live and perceive things in the 3rd dimension and move along in the 4th dimension "time" which moves in only one direction. The 5th dimension is similar to the 4th dimension but time moves in both directions and multiple realities can be seen from here "alternate realities". The 5th dimension is also timeless and this dimension is where travel throughout the universe occurs.


This is my theory, there were many great societies that held great knowledge of the world around them, exp: Mayans, Incas, Aztecs, Romans prior to Christianity, Witches, Egyptians and even the American Indians, there are many more but these will suffice for my point. All these groups believed in not just one god but many gods, and all these groups also believe in the after worlds (I call dimensions or veil) and subsequently practiced deep spiritual practices. There are still South American Shamans that teach spiritual rituals to show people how to look inside themselves to find answers. Some Shamans have brought back important information and discoveries from there voyages into the veil ( perhaps help from a benevolent race). According to Wikipedia (' Rome and the disintegration of its empire was due to the advent of the Christian era and its intolerance of the old gods who had defended the city for over a thousand years'). The Romans used Vestal Virgins which were said to talk to the gods or were they interacting with a benevolent race. The American Indian Lived as one with nature taking only what they needed to survive and living as one with nature, they were highly spiritual seeking wisdom through dreams and the veil,( help from benevolent race.) From studying hieroglyphs and relics we also see that the Mayans and Egyptians practiced spirituality and also would encourage and develop these abilities from a early age. OH and lets not forget about those witches burned at the stake, or any other method found to eradicate them. Witches were also spiritual many having visions or made health potions for the sick was there perhaps some interaction with a benevolent race. Then there's http://projectcamelot.org/lang/en/dan_burisch_stargate_secrets_interview_transcript_1_en.html This page describes star-gate secrets supposedly documentation and resources for contact with different alien races. What about Christians how do they fit in well lets see, they were the cause of nearly all these societies to collapse, what benevolent races? it seems every time we start to get some help and begin to understand, something(Christianity) just comes along and knocks it down.


How come they don't save us from our own ignorance? Why not impart half of their intelligence on us? Perhaps we could download their knowledge into our brains Matrix style. Since an advanced alien civilization that possesses benevolence hasn't done this, they must not exist, for they let us continue in our self-destructing ignorance.

I have seen behind the veil and until recently believed it was a personal experience that would some day reveal itself and it's meaning. I have always felt a presents around me but never tried to communicate with it till now, perhaps I will find nothing but I do feel they are benevolent and maybe someday I will find the answers I am looking for. If you have ever had an obe or crossed the galaxy in an astral adventure you would see there is some higher intelligence communicating. Many people who have had obe, nde or are astral travelers will tell you that these experiences are life changing, I have had them my entire life. The galaxy is enormous the closest star to earth is 4+ light years away, in the time it would take a benevolent race to travel from their planet to ours we would most likely be gone by the time they reached us. Above I described the dimensions, I belive that these dimensions are the gateways to travel throughout the galaxy and the universe but only to those that can vibrate at the levels required to reach these dimensions. The third is where astral projections occurs and the 4th is obes and ndes, the 5th is where time travel is possible but requires a very advanced race. You may never see a 4th or 5th dimensional race for your vibrations and evolution are not at a stage to see these things. Man must try to evolve the ability to perceive these dimensions to be able to communicate with these other races.

It seems you believe that, if benevolent advanced aliens exist, they should magically heal our pain and suffering, because lack of knowledge brings about suffering. I would like to bring the following story about suffering into the discussion:

I believe that if advanced benevolent races existed they would help us learn to help one another and to teach us how to heal ourselves, and how to overcome suffering.

We are what we are, as with the moth it is our interactions with things that for the most part bring on the suffering. How many times have we been told not to do something but in our quest for independence and self we do it anyway. Why teach those that will not listen? If the moth were let alone perhaps nature would have found away to insure it's survival, they have evolved the way they are for hundreds of years and this man after a couple hours could feel the pain of the moth. This story is very weak when it comes to suffering, it almost sounds brutal.

It seems logical to believe advanced alien civilizations of the benevolent type don't fulfill your wish because it would stunt the development of humanity.

Perhaps God, with all Its intelligence, sees wisdom in suffering.

Baha'u'llah wrote:

“O Son of Man! My calamity is My providence, outwardly it is fire and vengeance, but inwardly it is light and mercy."

Man creates his own suffering by not seeking his true self, I pity a god that wishes to see his so called children suffer.
 

Ahanu

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The galaxy is enormous the closest star to earth is 4+ light years away, in the time it would take a benevolent race to travel from their planet to ours we would most likely be gone by the time they reached us.
Distance isn't a factor in their current noninterference because an advanced civ with a half-billion-year head start could have seeded the entire galaxy with its nano tech by now. Interference from an advanced civ is immediately possible.

I believe that if advanced benevolent races existed they would help us learn to help one another and to teach us how to heal ourselves, and how to overcome suffering.
Nothing stopping them. Distance isn't a problem. Where are they?

They don't exist.

If they do exist, they would be here by now helping us solve poverty, inequality, ignorance, and so on with their magic.

If they do exist, they follow some type of Prime Directive. Something like Star Trek. They see a wisdom in noninterference. I'm in favor of this scenario.

If they do exist, then perhaps they interfere in more subtle ways. They can appear in human form. Just like The Day the Earth Stood Still. Meet us at our own level to help us understand.
 

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If they do exist, they would be here by now helping us solve poverty, inequality, ignorance, and so on with their magic.

Ahanu

So the idea of a advanced race of benevolent aliens would seem as plausible as a single almighty god. The truth is here, it is up to us to find it through all the vast layers of deception, miss direction, and Christian intervention. Perhaps all you have to do is believe in yourself and believe in the path that you are on to end suffering and pain, maybe if your intentions are true (they) will guide you for they can see the strength in your heart.


I do not believe in magic, but I do believe there are things out there that are beyond my comprehension.

I hope you find the things you seek.
 

Ahanu

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Ahanu

So the idea of a advanced race of benevolent aliens would seem as plausible as a single almighty god.

That's not the conclusion I arrived at. We'll need to agree to disagree. The advanced aliens are created beings. They are not necessary beings, but God is. God is more plausible. The thought experiment is simply for thinking about higher intellectual beings of the benevolent type and how they might react to our ignorance and other forms of suffering.

I do not believe in magic,
By magic I simply meant tech that is indistinguishable from magic. Your idea that the vast distance between the stars prevents an advanced civ from helping kills the thought experiment. But I did learn you think they would help us. To continue the thought experiment, I proposed alternate ways for advanced civs to intervene. One example is for them to seed the galaxy with nanotech millions of years ahead of our appearance on Earth. The question still lingers: Assuming they exist in our galaxy, where are they? Death has reigned on this planet for millions of years. They have plenty of time to think about intervening in human affairs.

The truth is here, it is up to us to find it through all the vast layers of deception, miss direction, and Christian intervention.

You have made discovering truth our own responsibility, so now it isn't the responsibility of an advanced civ to impart half of their intelligence on us, right? I think such a scenario , in which they bestow half of their intelligence on us, is a problem. Everybody wouldn't want that. Some may opt for remaining human, because such an intelligence would surely render us into some post-human form. And, if the advanced civ gives the humans a choice in the matter, then that partly resolves this problem. The disappearance of others who have opted for a post-human form would merely create new problems. Human society would be forced to change in some radical way because of the advanced civs intervention.

Similarly, in an evolutionary universe a God that intervenes and magically gives a part of creation a heap of intelligence would raise all kinds of restrictions, no? The evolutionary law wouldn't apply to us. It seems to me the universe would have to be redesigned into some static thing. Kind of like those sunday school conceptions of heaven as an eternal place of streets of gold, where you'll live with your unchanging family and friends for an eternity. While it does take away suffering, it also takes away change, growth, and mystery.


Perhaps all you have to do is believe in yourself and believe in the path that you are on to end suffering and pain, maybe if your intentions are true (they) will guide you for they can see the strength in your heart.
Okay. This is a subtle form of intervention. I like it. Much more practical than an abrupt intervention, such as UFOs descending from the skys to enlighten us. How they can intervene is as important as if they can intervene.

Notice how your attitude has changed towards the advanced civ. You don't require them to give us half of their intelligence as you do with God. You see ways for them to help us without such a radical intervention as imparting half their knowledge. From what I'm reading from you, you hold negative feelings towards the concept of a theistic God.

You listed many reasons God doesn't make sense, one of them being that God can create any level of being. You questioned the gap between God and humans. As I stated before, to ask why God didn't create Its own level of being doesn't make sense, because the very action of creating makes the being created a creation and dependent on the Creator. You then said God could at least make us a half-God, giving us 1/2 of Its intelligence. I then asked you to consider a thought experiment involving advanced civs of the benevolent type, and asked how you think they would intervene into human affairs. Would they radically intervene by giving us half of their intelligence? I answered by saying this how brings up problems for those intervened with. You concluded maybe they would guide us in subtle ways:
Perhaps all you have to do is believe in yourself and believe in the path that you are on to end suffering and pain, maybe if your intentions are true (they) will guide you for they can see the strength in your heart.
You see it as a possible, so I guess this reason God can't exist can be ruled out, at least for me.

You also have other reasons:

-Different religions exist, meaning religious-minded people can't agree

-From a social standpoint, the concept of God is useless except as a coping mechanism for pain and suffering

-The Bible isn't trustworthy and is inaccurate

-The design of the universe doesn't indicate God exists

I'm sure this doesn't reflect all of your reasons. Can you sum up each reason you don't believe in God with one-sentence reasons? I'm not here to convince you God exists. After all, you have touched on very difficult subjects. I just want to understand more about why you don't believe.
 

Ahanu

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You may never see a 4th or 5th dimensional race for your vibrations and evolution are not at a stage to see these things. Man must try to evolve the ability to perceive these dimensions to be able to communicate with these other races.

Also, before an advanced civ can enter the 4th or 5th dimension, I would point out they can leave technology behind to help others. Just wanted to indicate I understand your stance here.


If you have ever had an obe or crossed the galaxy in an astral adventure you would see there is some higher intelligence communicating. Many people who have had obe, nde or are astral travelers will tell you that these experiences are life changing, I have had them my entire life.

No, I haven't. Do you remember your first experience?
 
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