What's your take on the 2nd commandment?

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by Namaste Jesus, Mar 31, 2014.

  1. Namaste Jesus

    Namaste Jesus Praise the Lord and Enjoy the Chai Moderator

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    That is funny. I've heard a couple different versions of that one. Rabbi Segal tells it, ask a Jew their opinion and you'll get 3. None their own.
     
  2. shlomo

    shlomo Shlomo

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    the second commandment also includes ascribing any physical limited form to our Creator.
    Hence, even if we want to pray to One true Gd creator of universe, and
    u objectify him in shape of krishha or gilden calf or jzs,
    it still transgresses the 2nd commandment.
    Possibly the third as well (comparing Gd to a human body qualifies as 'taking his name in vain)

    So it seems, Jzs worship is against the torah.
     
  3. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    Shlomo,
    I'm just going to assume you are Jewish based on the posts I've read from you. While I agree that Jesus is not God (AKA The Creator, YHWH, Allah, etc), I think your approach to these issues is more agressive than most people here are going to stand for. I agree and would have even agreed as a Christian that the concept of a man being God is against the 2nd and 3rd of Moses' commandments. But when/where did Jesus claim to be God, or futhermore commit Blasphemy as you have claimed in other posts. He informs people that their sins will be/are forgiven. "I can of my own will do nothing" <<< Jesus claiming no power.
     
  4. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Jesus differentiated from his little 'i' I (jesus) and big 'I' I am (Christ/G!d)...
     
  5. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea Well-Known Member

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    Is a Jew and a Muslim undermining Christian doctrine through Jewish and Islamic doctrine? Why? You two have chosen your religions and you know them well, what is there to argue? If you want to understand Christianity, study Christianity, not any other religion.
     
  6. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    To me anytime one has a need to step on others fingers to climb the ladder it is indicative that one feels the other is stronger and will over take them on the ladder.

    If your points to support your own belief come from trying to tear down or discredit another's you have already lost the battle.

    Sure you can learn about other beliefs as well as your own... but that is not either of the goals here...it is quite funny actually.
     
  7. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    Not sure what you are talking about, or making reference to. But ok, so you are saying Jesus (PBUH) is not the same as God? If so I agree. When speaking to Christians, I try to figure out their view on this topic as the POV varies widely and I truly mean no disrespect in assuming 1 way or the other.

    Not sure where the undermining is that you are accusing, but I just pointed out some errors in what was said. As a matter in fact, I defended the Christian point that Jesus (PBUH) did not commit Blasphemy (a point which happens to be shared amongst Muslims).

    Studying the various other Abrahamic faiths strengthens ones knowledge of the cousins of our faiths. I seek knowledge of their respective religions because that is how we will be able to coexist in the future. If I do not understand a Christian POV, how can I relate something I am discussing. I don't see how pointing out things that don't make sense to me, or calling out what appears to be contradictions is stepping on fingers or toes or whatever. Maybe the person knows about the contradiction and is willing to accept it as a human error. or maybe they know the answer as to why it is not a contradiction.

    If I was here to debate, I would be quoting a lot more of both mine and others' holy books. Do I debate from time to time? Sure, as much as anyone else here.
     
  8. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea Well-Known Member

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    But you must know that Christians believe that Christ is the son of God. A quick google would render several places in the Bible where, the argument can be made that, Jesus is saying he is God. No?

    I'm all with you on the coexisting, I try to understand people for the same reason, but I actually don't see what you're attempting above. The way I see it:

    1. Jesus is God, then calling himself God isn't blasphemy. Christians.
    2. Jesus was just a guy calling himself God, blasphemy. Jews.
    3. Jesus was just a guy never calling himself God, not blasphemy. Muslims.

    We can't factually prove one or the other but we can make a case for each based on sources and build out faith on either.
     
  9. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    The problem is that not all Christians profess that Jesus is God. IMO according to Christian texts (OT and NT, and throw in some gnostic and dead sea scrolls for good measure) the idea that he is/was/going to be God is not supported. Could you make the conclusion that he is based on what is written in the NT? Sure, but you are throwing most of the OT in the trash (hence the title of this thread and the OP) in doing so. That is my opinion of course that I can provide evidence to with scripture, not Islamic Scripture, and could make a pretty good showing using only NT sources. That would be a debate however. I grew up Southern Baptist (Jesus is God), switched in my teens to follow what I referred to as Biblical Christianity (basing belief off of scripture rather than church sources) and then to Islam. I have seen and understood both sides and know very well not all Christians believe Jesus is God (Jehovas Witness, and I believe Pentacostal are examples). I would like to clarify which POV the person I am talking to believes before continueing on my analysis of certain things. No disrespect meant initially, and it is in the process of avoiding disrespect later.
     
  10. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    The vast majority of Christians are trinitarians
     
  11. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    I always heard that, but the moment I get to questioning it in terms of is Jesus God, most people seem to shy away from what Trinitarians supposedly believe. Especially when you bring up the OT. I'm not saying people can't believe what they want but they should be able to answer simple questions like when does Jesus profess to be God. (Not saying noone can find verses where Jesus is stated to be God, but where he says it. Also not saying it isn't there just I don't know where it is if it is.)
     
  12. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Some people are private and don't wish to engage into the nature of their beliefs or the nature of their ignorance of their beliefs.
     
  13. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    Yeah, that might be true, but that would also mean they shouldn't be trying to tell me my faith is wrong or bad. Which happens to be the way I get into those conversations usually which leads me to try to show that the 2 religions are generally the same or similar. Otherwise, I talk about football. :D
     
  14. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Just because they know your faith is wrong doesn't mean they know anything about their own.
     
  15. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea Well-Known Member

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    I personally treat every Christian denomination as a separate religion in itself. They have basic assumptions or interpretation that can fundamentally change everything. JW for example I find have very little in common with any other denomination, and they themselves would agree with that. The basic tenets of a religion makes up much of the religion, if they differer, the religion is as much.

    This I see as a flawed reasoning, assuming there are two sides, and once you think you understand one you can see that side clearly. I see infinite perspectives and every group of people include several. And the statement neglects the person observing, the person who is a big bag full of opinion, prejudice and assumptions. My own personal opinion is that we can never know if we actually understand anything.
     
  16. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say, and I'll try to clarify. I'm saying I understand and have believed in the past how people generally believe Jesus is God as a Christian, and I have personally understood that Jesus is not God as a Christian. Am I saying I understand all denominations, no... I still can't wrap my head around Catholocism, certain parts of JW, Mormon, and several others. I'm not saying they don't know their belief, I just don't know how they come to what they believe.

    As for each denomonation as a separate religion, I understand that logic and agree for the most part, but even within those denomonations, not everyone agrees on the most basic fundamentals.
     
  17. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea Well-Known Member

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    I agree with all that.
     
  18. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    The differences in those beliefs is what causes the various denominations, sects in Christianity, Judaism, Islam whatever...

    There is an overlying belief, and then there are the nuances that provide the difference.....thousands of christian denominations... dozens of Islam...a handful of Judaism..
     
  19. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    but what if jesus was god? however I believe jesus was Michael the archangel. first born of heaven.
     

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