The Establishment of the Minyan

Tea said "Your argument that your not a racist is that your God is a racist...so basically own up to that: I'm a racist because my religion is based on the premise that my race is better then all other."

Shib said "So, why don't you just pick your Bible and throw it into the fire? I cannot change what is written."

Tea, I would not group the God and the religion as necessarily one and the same thing. Whether or not there be Gods is not something I can answer yay or nay. Religion, on the other hand, is fairly obviously a creation of men. It is the religion that should be labeled racist.

Shib, of course you can change what is written (in the Bible). It has been done over and over again for thousands of years. Despite all the claims of divinity, the reality is that no one, No One has a copy of the original Bible. The earliest texts that have been found thus far are not contemporary to the events they speak of.

Worse there is no ONE Bible. There thousands of versions of the Bible that have been found either as fragments of one, or complete versions. They do not all say the same things.

How amazing it would be if we were to ever uncover a version of the Bible contemporary with the events that occurred in them.

Here is a Wiki article on dating the Bible. Fascinating reading:

Dating the Bible - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
LincolnSpector said:
I'm a Jew, by birth and by religion, and I find the equation Righteous=Jew deeply offensive. Look at the Jonah. That whole book is pretty much about non-Jews being more righteous than the Jewish title character.

The people of Sodom react to strangers in their town by wanting to rape them. That's very much not righteous, no matter what your religion or ethnicity.
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Prophet Jeremiah said that as long as Israel remains as a People before the Lord, the natural laws will work properly. (Jer. 31:35-37) He did not distinguish between righteous and non-righteous. Jesus said that "Salvation comes from the Jews," whether they are righteous or not. (John 4:22) He made no distinction. IMHO, the righteousness of the Jewish People as a People cannot be mudded by the individual Jew who does not behave righteously. Nothing to do with being racist or not as I am talking about the Jews and not comparing them with any other people.
 
Gordian Knot said:
Tea, I would not group the God and the religion as necessarily one and the same thing. Whether or not there be Gods is not something I can answer yay or nay. Religion, on the other hand, is fairly obviously a creation of men. It is the religion that should be labeled racist.
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I would group them thus. I do not speak of the objective god, but the perceived god, and religion is the product of that perspective. What God IS and what Religion IS was irrelevant to the point I was making. To Shibolet God held one race above all others, and the religion he would practice follows suit.
 
Okay I see what you are saying now. Lots of religions say their way is the only way. Their religion above all others. Their version of God above all others. Shib is not doing anything differently, except being a bit more pompous about it.

Is that racist? Maybe it is. I'm not sure.
 
Two points. Yes other religions are built on the foundation of superiority, and it's just as bad. Being just as bad as other religion isn't a good thing.

And the racist water gets murky when a religion is so intertwined with the people, families and tribes.

I wasn't attempting to moderate him in other ways, we have Brian for that, I was simply pointing out the hypocrisy in his statement. He is free to feel as religiously or ethnically superior as he wish. But then he should own up to that.
 
I was trying to figure out how a discussion about "The Establishment of the Minyan" turned into a discussion about racism.

According to the Torah, everyone, whether Jewish or non-Jewish, is obligated to observe the seven Laws of Noah. In addition, Jews are obligated to observe the 613 Commandments (Mitzvos).

Do you consider that racist?
 
Shibolet said:
The Bible brings an explanation to that but I doubt if it will color you out of your confusion. I'll mention it anyway: What is sinful as the Gentiles is concerned is not subject to the same method of judgment applied to the Jewish People. Why do I say so? From Jeremiah 46:28 where we have that of the other nations the Lord will eventually get rid of them BUT of Israel He will only chastise us as we deserve. Before you charge this statement with being racist, remember, it is not mine but from a Biblical Prophet.
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This is where the racism entered the conversation.

I think it was interpreted as being said it isn't racist as long as it is in the bible...

And I said that was used the same way to keep slaves, keep civil rights from happening, keep women under a man's thumb, and is now used to keep homosexuals as second class citizens with differing rights.

This was responded to by indicating that that dirty Paul...the Jew who switched sides...that he subjugated women in the NT...you know moving the bar.

So the Lord will get rid of us Gentiles and that is OK...
 
Dan0813 said:
It's not racism as far as I'm concerned. You started talking about racism, and I was trying to figure out why that entered this discussion.
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It hadn't anything to do with the topic. You should discuss the OP if you aren't interested in the new topic.
 
A Cup Of Tea said:
I would group them thus. I do not speak of the objective god, but the perceived god, and religion is the product of that perspective. What God IS and what Religion IS was irrelevant to the point I was making. To Shibolet God held one race above all others, and the religion he would practice follows suit.
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Please, don't say "according to Shibolet" but according to the Tanach. I am saying nothing from the top of my head but only what has been written.
 
Gordian Knot said:
Okay I see what you are saying now. Lots of religions say their way is the only way. Their religion above all others. Their version of God above all others. Shib is not doing anything differently, except being a bit more pompous about it.

Is that racist? Maybe it is. I'm not sure.
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If it is, I am not to blame for it but the Bible. For instance, "Of the other nations, God will eventually get rid of them but of Israel He will only chastise as we deserve." (Jer. 46:28) That indeed sounds like racism, no doubt but, blame Prophet Jeremiah, not me.
 
Dan0813 said:
I was trying to figure out how a discussion about "The Establishment of the Minyan" turned into a discussion about racism.

According to the Torah, everyone, whether Jewish or non-Jewish, is obligated to observe the seven Laws of Noah. In addition, Jews are obligated to observe the 613 Commandments (Mitzvos).

Do you consider that racist?
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That's a good one Dan, I couldn't have engendered it any better.
 
Shibolet said:
If it is, I am not to blame for it but the Bible. For instance, "Of the other nations, God will eventually get rid of them but of Israel He will only chastise as we deserve." (Jer. 46:28) That indeed sounds like racism, no doubt but, blame Prophet Jeremiah, not me.
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lol...blame Jeremiah for my racist attitudes?

too funny...yet another old discredited saw...
 
Shibolet said:
Please, don't say "according to Shibolet" but according to the Tanach. I am saying nothing from the top of my head but only what has been written.
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Of all the people I have ever discussed the bible with, you are the only one who brought it up, this was an important aspect for you, and only you. It wasn't even relevant to what you responded to.

Either way, you believe you're religion/race is superior or not, one is racist and the other isn't. You're reasoning is irrelevant.
 
wil said:
lol...blame Jeremiah for my racist attitudes?

too funny...yet another old discredited saw...
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No, but for what he wrote in his book. (Jer. 46:28) You don't get it, do you?
 
A Cup Of Tea said:
Of all the people I have ever discussed the bible with, you are the only one who brought it up, this was an important aspect for you, and only you. It wasn't even relevant to what you responded to.

Either way, you believe you're religion/race is superior or not, one is racist and the other isn't. You're reasoning is irrelevant.
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For someone to come to a Christian forum to discuss the Bible without even having one, there is nothing I can say which will be understood. Why don't you side with the atheists to discuss in their favor? That would be much more interesting.
 
Shibolet said:
For someone to come to a Christian forum to discuss the Bible without even having one, there is nothing I can say which will be understood. Why don't you side with the atheists to discuss in their favor? That would be much more interesting.
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Rather arrogant and ignorant comment all on one? If you don't want to respond, simply don't.
 
While I have a number of bibles, there sure isn't a reason to own one today unless you haven't found the internets, where you can find umpteen versions in a number of languages, with word search and hot links, various concordances, comparisons, references, a paper bible? You can just old the tablet and carry it around to be kissed.
 
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