Ultra-Orthodox Jews delay flight, refuse to sit next to women

I didn't refuse to discuss it. As I noted above, I'm skeptical that the people behaved properly, but still I respect them for trying to practice their religion.

I tend to agree with the following comment from Chicago Tribune article 2014-10-01:

Orthodox Jews separate the sexes in various circumstances in order to avoid social situations that could bring about violations of Jewish law, said Rabbi Yosef Posner of Lubavitch Chabad of Skokie.
But "within Orthodoxy is a whole spectrum of levels of intensity; there are some whose social conventions are more stringent than others," he said. He himself does not ask fellow airplane passengers to change their seats to avoid sitting next to a woman.
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Considering that El Al is the primary airline of Israel, and Israel is nominally a "Jewish state", one would think that the airline would expend more effort to accomodate those Jews who wish to observe Jewish law and customs.
 
I am sure El Al would be glad to charter them a flight.

We make choices in life....pay the piper for a private session...or abide by the rules of the group.
 
Are you sure they were all travelling together, and could have made reservations to sit together weeks ahead of time? Or that they could afford to charter a plane?

rules of the group
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That's the basic issue. The "rules of the group" were given to Moses 3300 years ago. The people who are being criticized are the ones trying to follow those rules.
 
If you can't afford to fly....you don't get to fly...

that works for all of us. Moses give them special dispensation on this? Don't want to fly with others...charter...want to sit next to your bro? buy seats together...this is not freakin rocket science.

I don't care if they don't have the money...then they can't fly...

The rules of the group are those rules by the airlines when you bought your tickets and booked your seat.

If you want to abide by the rules of Moses...you do that when you purchase your tickets and insure they fit your needs...NOT in the aisle of the airline...

But let us move beyond the airline, and spitting on women who show ankles, who are not in their group...screaming at tourists to get out of Israel....
 
A Cup Of Tea said:
Where did this come from?
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From here.... It still appears Dan staunchly supports this style of action.

wil said:
Would you prefer this is discussed in politics and society? Nobody is decrying Jews or Judaism, but bigotry and using force against people in the name of religion.

Ultra-Orthodox man attacks Beit Shemesh woman over length of her skirt - National Israel News | Haaretz

Women Of The Wall Attacked By Ultra-Orthodox Haredim While Praying At Western Wall (PHOTOS)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8sWsSJfDzY

http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2011/12/26/184706.html

Are you defending these actions?? In your mind are they warranted??

Judaism and the Jewish faith: issues and discussions
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Wil, I think I've adequately addressed the original topic.

You ignore the comments I've made, and keep trying to change the direction of the discussion to fit your agenda.

If you want to have a general discussion bashing Jews, I think you should start a new thread, probably in a non-faith board, as the forum rules suggest.
 
wil said:
It still appears Dan staunchly supports this style of action.
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That's just provocative rhetoric from your part, you both enter this topic from two ends of an extreme. When you, GK and Nick sit together and discuss religion you always end up where it's all Traditions fault and re-enforce the opinions of each other.

Dan here comes in with his guns cocked claiming all criticism of of any aspect of Judaism is an ATTACK on all Jews.

You both want to to discuss different topics and refuse to discuss anything else.

Am I being unfair?
 
I've got nothing against Jews....I am having an issue on your stonewalling the discussion on the Ultra Orthodox that are depicted in the OP of this thread and various videos in the past decade of these MEN online.

I don't have issues with Muslims...I do have issues with the likes of those that join Al-Queda... as do most Muslims.

If I read you correctly you believe that while they were slightly over the top on their actions in the airplane...that they deserve to have their needs met, and the airline and all the passengers should step aside, sit wherever is required so these guys can sit together and keep kosher...according to their strict version of kosher...which NO Jews that I know follow.

Are you a member of this ultra orthodox denomination? Is that why the defense?

Is that why you won't discuss the other videos on a similar subject? If you are that is fine... it will lead to the more discussion..I've got plenty of questions.

Most of my jewish friends range from conservative to reform. I know a number of Orthodox and have attended retreats at an orthodox center...I know of the barrier put between men and women in this center, and its purpose....they spent extra money to build the barriers (and/or purchase the movable barriers) to suit the needs of their belief...EXACTLY what these folks should have done on the plane.... got special dietary restrictions, bring your own food... At the orthodox center I go to, I eat kosher...no surprise there..I am a guest using their service and facility.

I also have some friends that are reconstruction and renewal...but mostly more strict...none so radical as those we are discussing.

I do love how you've tried repeatedly to make me out to be antisemitic jew bashing...it is quite hilarious...my jewish friends that I study Torah with have got quite the chuckle out of it. I can't have this discussion with any of them yet....as you are the only one that defends the behaviour of this sect.
 
ACOT.... I am trying to discuss the actions of the sect this thread is about...

Their actions on the plane, and their actions elsewhere...

I'd love to hear how he justifies them... but it appears you are correct...I will not learn anything here.
 
wil said:
Most of my jewish friends range from conservative to reform.
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Do you believe (as I formerly did) that their beliefs and practice of Judaism are just as valid as those who are orthodox? If so, we're starting from completely different bases, and will never be able to find common ground.

wil said:
ACOT.... I am trying to discuss the actions of the sect this thread is about...
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No. You've already made up your mind that this "sect", as you call it, is misguided. Your questions are loaded with judgements you've already made, and you look for provocative news articles to back that up.

I don't consider myself "ultra-orthodox" (which I think is a pejorative term, as it implies abnormality), but merely orthodox (aka "frum" or Torah-observant). I believe that all Jews are obligated to observe the 613 commandments.

I'm not accusing you of being anti-semitic or of attacking all Jews. But you are attacking those whose practices you don't understand or agree with.
 
Dan0813 said:
Do you believe (as I formerly did) that their beliefs and practice of Judaism are just as valid as those who are orthodox? If so, we're starting from completely different bases, and will never be able to find common ground.



No. You've already made up your mind that this "sect", as you call it, is misguided. Your questions are loaded with judgements you've already made, and you look for provocative news articles to back that up.

I don't consider myself "ultra-orthodox" (which I think is a pejorative term, as it implies abnormality), but merely orthodox (aka "frum" or Torah-observant). I believe that all Jews are obligated to observe the 613 commandments.

I'm not accusing you of being anti-semitic or of attacking all Jews. But you are attacking those whose practices you don't understand or agree with.
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The use of the word sect and denomination is interchangeable...

As I see it there are a number of denominations/sects to Judaism.... Do you consider the Ultra Orthodox a part of the Orthodox or as a separate denomination?

Do you refuse to sit next to women in public? On a plane or bus or theater?

I am here to understand...and like I said, my Jewish friends, don't understand.
 
wil said:
The use of the word sect and denomination is interchangeable...

As I see it there are a number of denominations/sects to Judaism.... Do you consider the Ultra Orthodox a part of the Orthodox or as a separate denomination?
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I'll answer that with a short article from a Chabad site:

What are the different kinds of Jews?
There are three types of Jews:

1. Those who do mitzvahs [commandments].

2. Those who do more mitzvahs.

3. Those who do even more mitzvahs.

...But I've yet to meet the Jew who doesn't do any mitzvahs. They can't help it even if they tried.

As for the labels of orthodox, conservative, reform, reconstructionist, renewal, Chassidic, ultra-orthodox, etc, etc.--as the Lubavitcher Rebbe once said, "Labels are for shirts, not for people."
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I don't consider myself part of Chabad, but a lot of my knowledge has been acquired through their resources.

Do you refuse to sit next to women in public? On a plane or bus or theater?
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No, but I respect those who make that choice. And it's conceivable that sometime in the future I could adopt that practice too.

I am here to understand...and like I said, my Jewish friends, don't understand.
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No problem. :)
 
Chabad.... I've been on various email lists with them and counted the omer thrice... in the past I guess seven years ago was the first maybe?

Do you count the omer?

Can you comment on what you see in the other videos?
 
Tea said "That's just provocative rhetoric from your part, you both enter this topic from two ends of an extreme. When you, GK and Nick sit together and discuss religion you always end up where it's all Traditions fault and re-enforce the opinions of each other.

Dan here comes in with his guns cocked claiming all criticism of of any aspect of Judaism is an ATTACK on all Jews.

You both want to to discuss different topics and refuse to discuss anything else.

Am I being unfair?"

Hey what did I do????? All I stated was that it is absurd to expect the rest of the world to honor a particular set of religious views when an event happens in a public place. How is that saying it is traditions fault????? How would it be possible to run the world if the requirement is that everyone's private religious views must be honored in all public spaces?

How is my question a different topic? It directly addresses the issue commented upon in the OP.
 
wil said:
Chabad.... I've been on various email lists with them and counted the omer thrice... in the past I guess seven years ago was the first maybe?

Do you count the omer?

Can you comment on what you see in the other videos?
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In my path back to religious observance, I've observed the Omer counting for the last four years. It's interesting that Counting the Omer is actually a Biblical commandment, like reciting the Shema twice a day and saying the blessings after meals, while generally the requirement to say prayers and blessings is a Rabbinical commandment.

From looking at the titles to the videos, I suppose they depict some Jews behaving badly. What's the point of viewing them?
 
Gordian Knot said:
Hey what did I do????? All I stated was that it is absurd to expect the rest of the world to honor a particular set of religious views when an event happens in a public place. How is that saying it is traditions fault????? How would it be possible to run the world if the requirement is that everyone's private religious views must be honored in all public spaces?
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It's was a comment on you three on this board in general. As I've said many times, you may have very complex views on any given topic, but if the only thing you choose to actually comment on is the negative it will appear you have a negative view on something. We all have our darlings, and I think that's one of yours.

Gordian Knot said:
How is my question a different topic? It directly addresses the issue commented upon in the OP.
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That last bit was directed at Wil and Dan, they were in the head butting match at the time.
 
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