Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by Amica, Jul 31, 2015.
David Wood vs Shadid Lewis
Another good debate.
I felt that Wood was grasping on "proving" that Islam is guilty in some way for the actions of those who kill in its name. While those like ISIS might profess that Islam is their driving ideology, I think it is rather their misinterpretation and wrong implementation of Islam and its teachings. Not Islam itself. ISIS actions prove it: they kill Muslims, they encourage rather than discourage slavery, they exceed limits in warfare, they start violence instead of defensive war activities, etc.
Among many other things they are guilty of even with the most basic of Shariah laws interpreted. David Wood is a joke of a debater. Usually he relies on his "former Muslim" buddy Sam Shamoun (SP?) to bring up a point that any Muslim can answer in a logical way. He is only effective in proving to the people who think sites like jihadwatch and the like are accurate that his POV is the correct one. One of his favorite defensive tactics is the moment a debater describes a known belief of Christianity, he just states that not all Christians believe that and his way is correct. BTW his group runs a website "answering-islam.org" if you want to see what a non-scholar of Islam he really is. Answering-christianity.org was made to directly combat his lies. I've stated before that I'm not a big fan of their Christian analysis, nor really their Islamic analysis but they do tend to give multiple Sheiks and scholars and students' opinions that clearly object to anything he ever says.
These debates are petty. They only provide an ideological basis for continuing the occupation of middle east that started just 2 years after the demise of USSR. I never saw any "Is the west a threat to the world" kind of debate. Talking to oneself about how awesome one is and how the rest are just jealous, rabid monkeys is a pretty lame way to feel good about oneself.
The question is not what ISIS does or believes, its who invented them and why. Who funded them in Libya and Syria against Gaddafi and Asad regime. Its amazing that after 25 years of colonization and massacre, westerners are still asking the same stupid questions.
Fixed it for you, you're welcome!
BJ, you are correct. I felt that in the debate Wood actually proved that when people take it upon themselves to interpret Qur'an and Islam individually, without any valid guidance from scholars and religious leadership, that they are doomed to become what ISIS and the likes have become. Also, it is important to consider various other Qur'an verses and hadiths before one can conclude what the teaching/ruling is. Wood argues that extremists are interpreting everything correctly. Yet, when faced with a biblical teaching and actions of Christians, he claims the Christian extremists are wrong, that no biblical teaching can be interpreted literally ever. I have seen the answering-Islam website and the one answering-Christianity. Love their online debates
Farhan, I love the debates no matter how petty At least it is a discussion that opposite sides are engaging in, rather than actual warfare. Listening to them people can get pointers for their personal research and, if honest with themselves, actually look at the facts. Provided, not every debater is a scholar and many engage just to make the other side look terribly bad.
Shadid, I thought, is an excellent speaker. He has charisma and something about him that makes one listen to him.
Of concern to me about Islam is not only the minority that have become SO extreme - but that in many surveys throughout the Middle East a large percentage of Muslims seem to feel that although they wouldn't take part, they do approve of Islamic extremist views. One such is the belief that death is the appropriate response to those who choose to leave the faith. I don't have the exact numbers right at hand, but 30% is what I am remembering. Considering the great number of those who profess to follow this religion, that is a whopping number of people.
The problem with these polls are that the questions are worded in a way that we as Muslims could answer in the affirmative, but would require more discussion to fully describe. For instance if you ask me, and only gave me an option as yes or no, "Is it acceptable to kill apostates in Islam". I would even have to answer yes. Now is that a full answer? No. Can you conclude that I support killing apostates? Only if that's the answer you want to push. People outside of Islam tend to want short easy answers, but as we all know this is a complex world (in our minds). So allah gave us freedoms and choices, and urges us to CHOOSE THE BEST answer. Is it acceptable, yes. Is it or should it be encouraged, no. The Quran tells us there is always a chance the person still believes but has to prove it to himself (or herself). So as long as they leave in peace, there is no need to kill them as they may one day return, may even already have chosen to then you would be killing a Muslim unjustly(again forbidden).
One question DA, Have you read the Quran? If you want answeres to common asked questions without it, look up Bayinnah on youtube and search for these answers. They have addressed nearly all of the big common issues. Nouman Ali isn't a sheik (probably close to qualified, but refuses to take the title).
Joe, the issue for me with what you are suggesting, and have suggested many times, is that what the texts say and what people do are too often not aligned. Actions speak louder than words, as the old saw goes. If a significant percentage of the population approves of violence (even if they would not do it themselves), it is irrelevant what the holy text says. And while I agree with you that for many questions there is room for interpretation, the one I mentioned is not one of them.
The only appropriate answer for 'Should people who leave the faith be put to death' is no. To suggest that it is AN acceptable answer to the question is splitting hairs. No other religion on the planet (to my knowledge) holds this belief.
Where I do agree with you is how the question in a poll is presented can make a significant impact on the accuracy of the responses. Unfortunately I do not have any of the poll questions, so I cannot say if they were fairly asked or not.
According to Torah, (of which Jews and supposedly Christians follow-ish) Leaving the religions is punishable by a severe death. I'm pretty sure there are many others. Now what you are saying is the fact that they don't follow their religion, their religion deserves more praise. I find this to be backward. And I know we disagree but:
does not define the religion. In the case of Hinduism, this can be true, and other not textually based religions, but Islam, much like it's brother religions of Christianity and Judaism, is based on a revelation. It was put into text. and therefore you could even say it is based on textual sources. Now the thing is IF you read into my answer, you would find that it is much more complicated than yes/no. In Islam there are hard rules for this world and hard rules for afterlife (meaning things you have to do to attain paradise), and there are soft rules for both. Stealing is a Hard Rule. Noone debates whether it is ok or not. Now is that to say there is never a time that stealing isn't bad? no. If you are starving, and your steal extra food, you are not to be punished.
I struggled with this for a while, the language used in describing right/wrong in Islam. Acceptable and not acceptable are very broad terms. Just because something is acceptable, doesn't mean encouraged, or even neutral.
Now in that you also must look at the other conditions. what all else is going on. Is this in an Islamic society and the apostate is going around filling the air with lies or attempting to pursuade others away? is this person angry at all followers and looking to hurt them.
Now, here is the other bit of info. You are trusting a poll that has an unknown question by unknown people who polled groups of undocumented people. How can you be sure this was done in a way that would truly warrant such an accusation. And yet you've heard multiple accounts about how what you've read isn't correct by the religion. So why is it you trust a poll of unknown anything, over the word of several individuals who actually follow what you are asking about. Then not only that, but you basically say that the religion can't be trusted because SOME people think this way.
ok... that is your opinion... and I agree. now change said question to "CAN people who leave the faith be put to death?" This is a completely different question. While you may not like the answer, this one allows for the conditions where it is better for society if 1 bad apple is trying to ruin it. Are there better options, nearly always the answer is yes. And the Quran instructs us to strive for the best.
I'll conclude with this. Islam is more than just yes/no answers. There are conditions, alternatives, etc. that determine the right thing to do in any situation. Sometimes doing an acceptable act is unacceptable. Depending on the other defining characteristics of the situation. It is encouraged to have intercourse whenever your wife/husband requests it. But does that mean it is never a sin to have sex with your partner? No it is clearly a sin if the woman is menstruating or the woman has requested divorce regardless if the man wants it or not. Fasting is obligatory during Ramadan. But if you cannot fast you must donate food. What if you can't afford the required amount and you physically cannot fast due to ailments that are going to always be there (severe diabetes for instance)? If this is the case most scholars will tell you that any attempt at fasting would be considered a sin.
Already stated that how the poll questions were asked is relevant. Why do I trust a poll over individuals? Short answer is I don't. Long answer is individuals can have agendas just as much as polls can. Remember I live in the American South and I am in contact daily with individual Christians that do not have a clue what their religion is about. The other point I would add is that an individual can only speak for themselves. A poll, by its nature, attempts to speak to the overall beliefs of the group. Or at least the trends in those beliefs. Polls are getting the opinions of many, many individuals.
But I do not automatically trust polls. Why? Because people who do polls have agendas also. So who did the poll adds or deletes my belief in its attempt at neutrality. There are some good pollsters out there; one I mention a lot is the Pew Institute. I have respect for that group. Whereas a poll by the Fox Propaganda channel I would throw in the trash without giving it a second thought. Their standard of excellence is nonexistent.
I just came back from Europe which is my birthplace and I am cringing whenever I see the invasion that is taking place in Europe. It is not a military invasion but a cultural and ethnic kind.
I understand these individuals. They're exhibiting the most human quality which is to do whatever it takes to survive. But these Middle Easterners that somehow do make it to the West need to understand that this is exactly the reason we demand that they leave the shackles of their backwards religion behind. Why is it that almost all the failed states in the World come from where Muslims live … Somalia, Libya, Yemen, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan … This is also where the most grotesque terrorism in the world comes from. People are naturally going to be weary about allowing such a dysfunctional culture to come into their countries
Based on human emotions we must be compassionate but letting this barbaric culture further advance in our midst is a grave mistake! The so called "refugees" eat (!) their own travel documents, so there is harder for the authorities to send them back! They start fights, loot, steal and behave thuggish menacing ways, that is very unbecoming to the image of a poor refugee. I feel very sorry for the kids and families with small children, but otherwise the sheer number is prohibitive in terms of letting them stay...There is a human catastrophe in Syria but how come Turkey wants to move her 2 million and pass them onto Europe? Now they are building a wall! Hungary is building a wall! If you say there is no threat your head is in your butt, simply saying....How come they cannot go to Saudi Arabia? They have the room and the funds....they are closer culturally...?? Send them back there!
Just imagine how many sleepers for the Islamic State are in the crowds whether they are coming from either Syria/Iraq or Northern Africa?
The EU political correctness and stupidity (no, that is not compassion! It is moronic) is digging their own grave! Endangering their own citizenry in the name of some moronic utopia is a mistake that will haunt EU as well as the idiot in the White House.
Nice way to deviate from the religiousbasis of this argument to a political one.
can only assume you mean Islam is a barbaric culture since the thread's title. Care to back that up with actual evidence? I do find it interesting you use the word barbaric when talking about an invasion of europe (Hungary). You know where the "barbarian culture" is from? I do. My family was a major part of it. Eastern and Northern Europeans were referred to as barbarians by the Romans. Essentially European Culture is the evolution of that culture.
This sounds like propoganda... any credible sources? Eyewitness any?
more propoganda? 3 options for explanation
1: propoganda... lies
2. unwillingness to submit to oppressive laws
3. fact that for the last 20+ yrs war has been the only thing they've witnessed.
You think somehow that Turkey can afford the care? maybe they would have been able to if EU wasn't so against having a Muslim Majority member? Then again, how is this only Turkey's responsibility if EU countries volunteered take refugees. Or is it only ok to take unruly refugees from India, Russia, etc.?
you know that racism discussion we were having, this is the example of the negative talk. They bad, us good. Saudi? Plenty of funds, yes. Islamic(kinda) culture, yes. room, not really. Unless you think we should just put them in tents in the desert. that sounds humane.
the numbers of ISIS are small and dwindling. If you haven't watched actual news lately, Turkey and Saudi and Jordan are leading the attacks. And doing it quite efficiently. Members of the group are defecting by the dozens per day, Kurds are still holding strong (but sustaining losses especially with PKK still picking a fight with Turkey). Then it comes down to screening. It is those countries responsibility to see to it that they screen all people enterring. If they are allowing free movement without screening then yes that country is asking for trouble.
don't worry. life will go on, no need for doomsday ideas. noone, especially not ISIS is coming to take control of any country anytime soon. they simply don't have the manpower.
Sorry for not taking this more philosophically but in terms of realpolitik, but these are events taking place as we write and they are largely based on religious and cultural clash of civilizations!
I do not consider Islam barbaric per se, but as it is currently practiced in the backwaters of these 3rd world countries with their corruption, graft, and in general backwards attitude about life in general we do not need to import people from places like that unless they have education and here is the kicker; aptitude to submit to western culture and customs! If not, sorry, go to an Islamic country or change your own little turf or perish....As for ISIL, I bet you a dollar for a doughnut these refugees are infiltrated with them as fleas on a dog!
You say all this is just propaganda? I was there! And let me ask you why, now even in England and Germany the doors are closing? Why is the border between Italy and France closed with riot police stationed there? Because it is not a humanitarian problem, but an invasion! Invasion from an alien culture to out-breed and occupy a land that they already tried to take over, during the reign of the last Caliphate! History will repeat itself, it seems.....
And the last but but least; Turkey is a two faced ally and if it was not for the access to the black sea via Turkey they would be kicked out from NATO already, ever wonder why they are not part of the EU? (it seems that they never will....)
you do realize that your whole statement is situated on a very offensive platform. When you say
are you saying willing to obey the local laws? If so, I agree, as long as they don't force you to do something outside of Allah's laws. For instance France attempted to pass a law making Hijab illegal. I do not agree to submitting. China (I know not european) made fasting and praying illegal. No I would not submit to those laws.
Or are you saying they should be drinking wine and walking around on nude beaches. Committing adultry in the street, just because the culture says it is ok? (last example was from a report I read about a year ago... couple wasn't charged and the public made them heros for a short time). Or customs, like men and women public kissing, sex while dating, Christmas, Easter, etc? I'm sure you don't submit to all of these either.
And how is Turkey 2 faced more than EU? They complied with every demand EU ever made for their entry, then France pushed back and refused since they wouldn't recognize the supposed Armenian Genocide as a war crime they should be responsible for. Although Turkey wasn't even established as a country at the time and there is so much credible evidence to the contrary.
This exchange is very very far from what I would consider Interfaith. you seem to have built a hatred for Muslims, while trying to save face by limitting it to the people fleeing war. ISIS probably is trying to establish itself in these immigrations, (the people you claim are coming to take over, while simultaneously running from a war) and the countries accepting refugees should screen them, or contain them in areas that are designated as refugee only zones.
BTW, Muslim numbers aren't increasing so fast because we are "breeding" so much, We are growing so fast because so many people realize what they are doing is not moral and are converting/reverting into Islam in large numbers.
The title of this debate is;
Is Islam a Threat to the West? I say YES, YES!
Oh, you are offended! Well I am offended that I cannot move to Saudi Arabia and practice my religion in fear that THEY'D KILL ME? How is that? Do you think you are the only one who has the right to be offended. If western laws offend Muslims, they are welcome to MOVE!
Saudi solved that problem by not allowing refugees (for the most part). These people you are looking at as scum, aren't moving... They're fleeing. These countries accepted and told them to come. And to be better informed, you CAN move to Saudi AND PRACTICE your religion. As long as you do so in designated Expat areas. You won't get a citizenship, but you are welcome to go if you do have a job. The moment a country accepts Refugees, they accept that SOME of their customs will be kept. Also for those who live there and the law changes to deny their rights, that is wrong.
You use Saudi, probably because it is the most exclusive, Try Jordan, Palestine, Syria (without ISIS), Iraq, Qatar, Egypt, Indonesia, or Turkey. All of which have Christian populations. Most have Hindu Populations, Buddhist populations, Jewish, etc.
Everyone has the right to be offended. It's not really a right, but a consequence of a right. If the US were to stand up tomorrow and say all Muslims must remove Hijab, stop praying (in the Islamic way), turn our Masjids into churches with Idols of false images of Jesus (PBUH) or the forms of Hindu god(s), and cease fasting. I would for sure be joining my brothers in fighting back the oppression. Not only is it commanded by Islam, it is also commanded by the Constitution.
You make it sound like Islam is the most tolerant religion...very funny! No matter how you spin it, Europe considers it(Islam) a threat, a serious one while we're at it. India considers it a threat, so does China and Russia. With the terror attack in France and possible other ones brewing, it is no surprise! It is deafening to hear the so called "moderates" trying to excuse and whitewash even the most obvious and egregious regimes such as Saudi Arabia, Iran or Somalia.
Try to be an educated Arab in Saudi and wake up one morning to realize that Islam is perhaps not to your liking and rather explore other religions...see how far you get! I was born and raised a Christian and I am not one today, so I do think it is quite plausible to see folks in other lands might follow my predicament....
As a final word, as refugees, when and if we accept them, it is never implied that they will bring their backwards customs, superstitions and other baggage with them! And we must tolerate it! I am not sure where you got this nonsense! Norway has skyrocketing rape cases all from their wonderful Somali refugees....how long do you think this is going to go? I think it has gone far enough....
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