Debate: Is Islam a Threat to the West?

[arthra]

I feel that I should make some entries here in this discussion... being a Baha'i. Baha'is as you know have largely been suppressed in Iran but even after a century of suppression we Baha'is bear no ill will toward Islam or Muslims... I think this is largely due to our respect for the religion of Islam and Prophet Muhammad from our beginnings. We do not attack Islam or cast aspersions at Islam. I noted in the "debate" video certain verses were taken from the Qur'an in a sort of quote mining exercise without respect for any context of these verses.. You can also find verses in the Qur'an that recognise the dispensations of Judaism and Christianity and allow for Christians, Jews to practise their religions. You can find verses in the Qur'an that support defensive wars as well as fair treatment of prisoners.

Islam has also in my view made important contributions to Western civilisation in science, medicine and university education over the centuries.

The use of terrorism and rape as a strategy is in my view un-Islamic and really has no justification in the Qur'an or historicIslamic standards... Terrorism is really the resort of those who have lost respect to begin with and are clamoring for a short lived burst of fear. More over it is the Muslims themselves who have suffered greatly from these attacks...I believe what we are seeing is a resurgence of long held religious and sometimes racial prejudices against Islam and Muslims.

One of the best ways to deal with these prejudices in my view is to actively participate and collaborate with inter-faith activities in your community. We have an Interfaith Council in my city that is composed of Muslim, Jewish and Christian representatives and that's where you can work togetehr on a community level to dispel many of the myths and xenophobic reactions people are expressing today.

 

[Hermes]

Let me respond Arthra. You are right, I spoke in haste because I am very upset of the situation in Europe. I hold the old continent very high regard in terms of culture and nice livable environment despite that fact that I have been living in the US for 40 years. I have lived in Europe for 22. But before you label me anti Islamist. I must say, I am anti organized religion! Period. I am especially against religion that meddles into secular affairs. Like any fundamentalist religion, they must be stopped. The US founding fathers were wise to make this point. Secular life and religions DO NOT MIX in the US. So sharia laws are de facto against the Constitution of the US. I feel just as strong about fundamentalist Christians meddling into US laws. as Muslims pushing for sharia. I am not against the idea of religion but the ignorant people who organize, interpret (or misinterpret) and forcefeed others into their way of thinking.

 

[BigJoeNobody]

Let me respond Arthra. You are right, I spoke in haste because I am very upset of the situation in Europe. I hold the old continent very high regard in terms of culture and nice livable environment despite that fact that I have been living in the US for 40 years. I have lived in Europe for 22. But before you label me anti Islamist. I must say, I am anti organized religion! Period. I am especially against religion that meddles into secular affairs. Like any fundamentalist religion, they must be stopped. The US founding fathers were wise to make this point. Secular life and religions DO NOT MIX in the US. So sharia laws are de facto against the Constitution of the US. I feel just as strong about fundamentalist Christians meddling into US laws. as Muslims pushing for sharia. I am not against the idea of religion but the ignorant people who organize, interpret (or misinterpret) and forcefeed others into their way of thinking.

I'm pretty sure we have hit upon one problem. Being Anti-Organized religion is essentially like saying I know the religions I've studied aren't correct so none of them can be. Have you ever looked into Islam? Ever studied what Shariah is? I know by your statement you do not understand it. True "Secularism" is a pipe dream of the idealists. Noone, and I absolutely mean NOONE with any resolve in their religion can truthfully say their religion does not effect their ideas on right/wrong in ways to handle politics, law, etc.

If you have something you just "know" is a problem with Islam, or Shariah. Please Take it to my "Whats wrong with Islam" thread. I would be happy to either answer for you or if you want to take a more knowledgeable person's approach, I will link some youtube videos that will answer your issues satisfactorily, inshallah.

I do agree that laws should be based on Constitutional basis. Freedom of Religion, Speech, expression, etc. With a Christian majority, and people fighting so hard to make this a Christian Country I doubt that will ever happen. The Christians are never going to stop their fights. And some of them I agree with (from a moral standpoint). To the vast majority, Freedom of Religion means Freedom to act as "I" think is Christian. And Speech is freedom to say what "I" want, but don't talk bad about me. And expression, As long as "I" am displaying it is ok, but noone else should.

I understand you may have witnessed things from a group of Muslims that you find inappropriate, and I understand your frustration (especially if they were displaying violence... Whether you trust me or not we get frustrated at seeing it also) They are not acting Islamically. So when you use this example to blanket the religion as what you claimed earlier, It is beyond offensive. I sometimes forget that not everyone on this site is familiar with what is actually taught in Islam. And if I snapped too far, I am truly sorry. I do encourage you to learn what these terms and their contents: Islam, Shariah. I am not telling you to study to strive to know everything (but please do if you are so inclined), but I am hoping you will take the time to release your hatred based on them.

 

[Hermes]

This is worth repeating; " I am not against the idea of religion but the ignorant people who organize, interpret (or misinterpret) and forcefeed others into their way of thinking." I have faith in the "word", but I do not trust people and 5000 years of religious hatred and wars based on it have proven me right.

 

[Thomas]

Is anyone debating how much western values – basically American values – threatens the rest of the world?

 

[BigJoeNobody]

Is anyone debating how much western values – basically American values – threatens the rest of the world?

I think what you stated here is much more affirmative than you intended. Maybe not directly the "values" but what those "values" lead to. Capitalism has lead the the enslavement of 90% of the world to debtors, and even the poor putting useless devices before feeding children and themselves. It also is the greed driven reason 99% of wars are waged (not the religions that Hermes blames) Sexual openness has lead to devastating effects on the family unit, and mass incursion of Homosexual and transgenderism that is quickly growing. Near naked- to nakedness in public have led to jealousy, and in turn violence. The "I'm important" value of the west is another contributing factor to wars, but also in gangland violence, identity theft, Economic inequality spread, etc. The US has been at war nearly every year since it was founded. What are these wars driven from? Religion? No. Care for others? No. Money? YES. GREED is the "value" most displayed in American/western societies, and there is so much discussion of this "value" being a threat to the world that even in the US and the rest of the west, it is discussed daily.

 

[Hermes]

That is nonsense! We in the US learned western values from the Brits, Germans and other white European LEGAL immigrants. Now you can argue how harmful the US interventionist attitude in the world but that is a different debate altogether. I have tried to emigrate to the UK first from Communist Eastern block and I was sent home packing. I did not stay there illegally or hide in some "safe city" as we have 200+ cities in the US...nor, I've tried to become a criminal in the UK, as so many other migrants do. Now, a bit wiser, I am smirking of the ill selection process of their immigrants, the Brits are sucking on, after 40 years...Diversity! Are you embracing it Thomas? I am loving it....
BTW. How many Somali refugees do you have at home?

Is anyone debating how much western values – basically American values – threatens the rest of the world?

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

Hermes and Joe have surprisingly much in common. One root cause for all the worlds ills, what the root is is the only thing they disagree on.

 

[Hermes]

It is hard to argue that the root of all evil is man, i.e. many ignorant/gullible , too hungry, too violent etc...we have polluted earth with people to the point that mother nature would start puking and puking she will...

Hermes and Joe have surprisingly much in common. One root cause for all the worlds ills, what the root is is the only thing they disagree on.

 

[Aussie Thoughts]

Is anyone debating how much western values – basically American values – threatens the rest of the world?

If that's the attitude in the UK these days, I sure hope you poms don't need American relief aid or military support anytime soon!

 

[Thomas]

I think what you stated here is much more affirmative than you intended.

I think it's a matter of perspective. It depends whether or not one still believes in the autonomy of 'the nation state'.

Maybe not directly the "values" but what those "values" lead to.

Well I think we have two things going on here. We have the 'traditional' values of "Truth, Justice and the American Way" and there's an interesting history of the political connotations of that statement here. And we have 'the American Dream' see wiki here.

Whilst such ideals are to be applauded, when powers engage in 'regime change' to bring about favourable conditions for economic policy, then the dream becomes something darker.

Capitalism has lead the the enslavement of 90% of the world to debtors, and even the poor putting useless devices before feeding children and themselves.

More than 90%, I would have said.

Capitalism has enslaved its home states first. The US is enslaved and leading the onslaught.

So whilst people here will no doubt read my comments as an attack upon America, they're not. America has been overthrown/sold out from within, and it is those whom I attack. We've done the same here, as ever, following your lead ...

Please remember that, so far, the US has been responsible for the overthrow of more foreign governments – by violent means or otherwise – than ISIS, but there was no great outcry then.

It has also been responsible for the founding, funding and training (along with our own SAS) of such organisations as the Muhajideen, the Taliban, Al Qaeda and, it appears, ISIS, as a means of pursuing its foreign policy.

What are these wars driven from? Religion? No. Care for others? No. Money? YES. GREED is the "value" most displayed in American/western societies, and there is so much discussion of this "value" being a threat to the world that even in the US and the rest of the west, it is discussed daily.

Of course, we only go to war where the money is. Not for 'Truth, Justice and Tolerance' (as Superman used to say before he was politicised, or 'T, J and Freedom'); not to promote 'the American Dream', but to ensure corporate values and corporate power.

 

[Thomas]

That is nonsense!

Is it

We in the US learned western values from the Brits, Germans and other white European LEGAL immigrants.

And you ditched them. 'Democracy' in America is something completely different to how it's understood in Europe.

Now you can argue how harmful the US interventionist attitude in the world but that is a different debate altogether.

Not really, it underpins everything. All these discussions are the fruit of an 'interventionist attitude' – the US coined the term 'regime change' which means the overthrow of any nation that will not play the corporate game.

Diversity! Are you embracing it Thomas? I am loving it ... BTW. How many Somali refugees do you have at home?

Oh, I know! But then, we're driven by right wing corporate interests too.

 

[Thomas]

I must say, I am anti organized religion! Period.

I have often wondered what a disorganised religion looks like, or how useful it is ... ... but do appreciate the 'I am spiritual but not religious' and the bogeyman of 'organised religion' has been promoted by those with a vested interest in Corporatism which depends on Consumerism for its existence.

I am especially against religion that meddles into secular affairs.

Ah, here's the crux. Corporatism and Consumerism are opposed to 'religious values' because they're founded on the 'philosophical virtues', all of which are the exercise of self-restraint. The seven vices, on the other hand, are promoted by consumerism, that doesn't take much working out.

This is why Corp. wants religion removed from the public sphere and relegated to the private, along with all other crackpot notions. It resists the values corporatism seeks to promote.

The US founding fathers were wise to make this point.

I thought they promoted religious freedom and tolerance?

I am not against the idea of religion but the ignorant people who organize, interpret (or misinterpret) and forcefeed others into their way of thinking.

I feel the same way. I feel the same about politics, too. I just think it's odd that people make a big deal about religion, but not quite so big a deal about a politic which is far more damaging.

1% of the world's population now owns 50% of the global wealth.

In the UK, in the 80s, the average boss earned 40 times more than the average worker. Today according to the latest figures the average boss earns 180 times more. I'm sure the same thing's happening in the US. Whilst we're all being told to tighten our belts and suffer the crunch of the global downturn, the guys at the top who're manipulating the whole shebang are earning exponentially more than they ever did before.

 

[Thomas]

If that's the attitude in the UK these days, I sure hope you poms don't need American relief aid or military support anytime soon!

Oh, I'm under no illusion there! The 'special relationship' we enjoy with the US has been demonstrated more than once to be a one-way ticket. We support them more than any other ally, we take hits more than any other ally, and I'm sure, when we need it, we'll be on our own, unless there's something in it for the Big Guy.

 

[Hermes]

Here we go again...touching on the subject of wealth distribution...remember the last time we have tried it? The Russian experiment along with the Chinese one was a dismal and utter failure. Why? Because of the "people factor"...It was inevitable and even Lenin, who was no saint knew the revolution would fail once he was dead. How can you not understand that the second time it would be the same? Common people understand that and they won't even try...
People cannot be trusted with power (secular or spiritual), even if benevolent and righteous people start something, they will eventually die and the ones lurking in the shadows will pounce in. The only way this will happen is a cataclysmic world event when a big chunk of the population would perish, likely due to act of God event, like rising sea levels of earthquakes. No revolution can compete with that!

 

[farhan]

People forget these things, because they arnt told they are supposed to remember. Or because its good that they forget. See this nice family photograph? The forefathers of "Islamic" terrorism in turbans, the founding fathers in Black/blue suits, and the founding fathers of the political entity which founded the "Islamic" terrorism, talked about below. And then you blame Islam for all that?

(The people in turban arnt taliban BTW, they are the original mujahdeen "gentlemen").

And about USSR, apart from communism's deficiencies, its demise had a lot to do with these bearded and suited people's joint operations (and heroin money and petro dollars).

 

[Thomas]

Here we go again...touching on the subject of wealth distribution...remember the last time we have tried it?

While I am inclined to agree, I'm not quite so negative nor nihilistic. What you're looking at is a phenomena that's come about in the wake of certain cataclysmic events. The cults of Corporatism and Consumerism have always been there, but expanded with a lack of constraint after WWII.

Along with Corporatism and Consumerism we have the cult of Celebrity. A heady, volatile and toxic mix.

Wealth itself is not a problem. In the UK for example, the wealthy Victorians funded a vast array of philanthropic projects for the benefit and betterment of society as a whole. Some systems do work, it's just the current ones don't. What exacerbates the problem is a media (and we haven't touched on media culpability in all this) that informs everyone that 'they can have it', indeed insist that 'because I'm worth it', when the majority of 'they' patently can't afford it.

There are numerous patterns to show that a disparity in wealth is not a necessary impediment to good relations, but continually rubbing the other guy's nose in it is, which is what the media does, in so many ways.

People cannot be trusted with power (secular or spiritual)...

That may well be true, but it doesn't really get us anywhere, does it?

I'm reading The Psychopath Test by Jon Ronson. A doctor notes: "People who are psychopathic prey ruthlessly on others ...to get what they want." (Robert Hare, Ph.D). It's also noted that psychopaths like positions that empower them over others. Many CEOs, politicians and people in positions of authority tick all the boxes. Many are famous, 'glamourous' and well-liked – it all part of their manipulation of their audience.

It might well be that we are an evolutionary hiccup. In fact, the evidence suggests as much: we've been around for next to no time at all in the scheme of things, and yet our negative effect on the planet's biodiversity is little short of catastrophic. We're depleting natural resources at a rate that far outstrips replacement, we're altering the atmosphere to such an extent that we're well on the way to triggering another 'extinction event'. Considering that the planet has had less than a dozen of these in its lifespan, that's pretty impressive going! Normally it takes a mega volcano or a asteroid strike, but we've managed it!

It occurs to me that for my parent's generation, the solution to the eco/enviro problem was a trust in science; we were told that we'd all enjoy limitless leisure time because tech would handle all the work. And where are we: tech rich, time poor.

And the idea of leaving the planet, of finding new places in the Cosmos to colonise, or mine for energy and resources ... Well maybe there are aliens out there, and maybe they are more UFO visits than we realise ... but maybe they're running a discreet blockade, to keep us in. I mean, if you lived out there in space, would you want a species like us, which resembles a toxic virus in so many ways, spreading through your local galaxy? "Hi guys! We killed our planet, so we thought we'd settle on yours ..."

 

[Namaste Jesus]

If that's the attitude in the UK these days, I sure hope you poms don't need American relief aid or military support anytime soon!

Don't mind Thomas, Aussie. Some Brits are still just bitter over that whole revolutionary war thing...lol!

 

[Hermes]

The whole idea of multiculturalism is a veiled attempt to redistribute wealth in a nasty coercive way. It won't work, especially not in Europe! The fallacies of multiculturalism in the old continent of Europe is a pipe dream, where nation states jealously guard their culture, habits, religion and language. It works a bit better in the US where we are not a nation state but a collection of misfits and mutts. But wait til it gets a bit harder for the population and they are pouncing on the escape goat...

 

[Devils' Advocate]

I have no idea what your point was in that post Hermes.