Self-Forgiveness

When I was a kid a neighbour of ours was in the allied advance that liberated Bergen-Belsen. He said you could smell the camp from over a mile away, but when outraged soldiers berated the German townsfolk living nearby, they all claimed they didn't know what was going on ... normal people turned a blind eye ...

Was it a Chrysler that won a bad reputation for catching fire in the event of a rear-ender? It turned out that the manufacturer had done a cost-analysis and worked out that the law suits they'd lose would still cost less than the amount they'd save by making the modification that made the car so dangerous ... an accountant worked the figures ... and probably claimed he thought it was 'an exercise' ...

Look at the resistance to Civil Rights campaigns ...

Or communities who follow their leaders into one Middle East conflict after another ...

Will people follow their leaders over a cliff? Of course they bloody will. We do, over and over again, and the few who dare to stand up and say 'this is wrong' get shouted down. It's the law of intertia. History shows us that.
 
Thomas said:
It's like telling yourself you're a good guy. You might well be. You might not be. But when someone else tells you you're a good guy, it's always more effective – even if the other is mistaken, or lying!
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Well, maybe. It may be more effective, but it is also more short term. No one can tell you anything about yourself that you will accept if you are unwilling to accept the comment. If you don't believe you are a good person, no number of people telling you otherwise is going to change your mind. These things have to come from within yourself.
 
Devils' Advocate said:
Well, maybe. It may be more effective, but it is also more short term. No one can tell you anything about yourself that you will accept if you are unwilling to accept the comment. If you don't believe you are a good person, no number of people telling you otherwise is going to change your mind. These things have to come from within yourself.
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True, but then – and this is not a 'but' but rather a further exploration – how one sees the self is in relation to beyond the self?

Have you read 'The Psychopath Test'? A good book. Basically, lack of empathy is one of the markers of psychopathy. It turns out that quite a few of us tick the boxes, as many as one in ten, but that does not mean they are murderers, that requires other factors that are, thankfully, rare.

But psychopaths do like to be in control, and to tell others what to do. Some studies have suggested that a disproportionate number of CEOs, politicians, etc. are in the psychopath spectrum, because they're attracted to those kinds of professions.

I keep banging on this, I suppose, because I think one of the most insidious afflictions of the contemporary West is the idea of 'autonomy' and 'self determination'. It's a delusion, the idea that it is we who nurture our own nature. It's a product of consumer culture that manages that double act of fooling us into thinking we're in control while making sure we keep our noses in the trough ... we're consumers first and foremost, and that will be the indictment upon this perverse and post-modern generation ... why are we so profligate in squandering our resources, 'because we're worth it' ... :rolleyes:
 
Thomas said:
Was it a Chrysler that won a bad reputation for catching fire in the event of a rear-ender? It turned out that the manufacturer had done a cost-analysis and worked out that the law suits they'd lose would still cost less than the amount they'd save by making the modification that made the car so dangerous
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Hardly just Chrysler. Most major corporations do this as a matter of course. Corporations runneth over with wealth these days. It is entirely reasonable to them that paying off a few (hundred) deaths makes much more sense if fixing the problem would cost more. Admittedly it does make a crazy sort of sense. If the percentage chance of a problem far outweighs a small design flaw, I could accept a company leaving the flaw be. The reality is that no one can make an 100% safe anything. What makes it acceptable or offensive is where the line is drawn.
 
Thomas said:
I keep banging on this, I suppose, because I think one of the most insidious afflictions of the contemporary West is the idea of 'autonomy' and 'self determination'. It's a delusion, the idea that it is we who nurture our own nature.
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In this we do have a fundamental difference in how we look at reality. From a theological perspective I understand that it might be considered a delusion that it is we who nurture our own nature. Not having a theological based belief system, it is perfectly reasonable to me that it is, indeed must, be ourselves who nurture our own nature. Can this lead to delusion as well. Of course. Delusion is just as abundant from the theological perspective, too. Delusion is a human condition that we must all be wary of, no matter if our self esteem comes from outside of us or inside of us.
 
Thomas said:
Was it a Chrysler that won a bad reputation for catching fire in the event of a rear-ender?
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No, that was early versions of the Ford Pinto hatchback and sedan. At issue was the position of the fuel tank in relation to the rear differential. In a rear end collision it was possible for the fuel tank to hit the differential and rupture creating the potential for fire. It was mainly a problem as the cars aged and began to rust. Ford took the position that since they could control neither rust nor accidents, they had no liability, but because they had prior knowledge of the potential problem, the courts thought differently.

The fix as it turns out was a simple plastic cap fitted over the differential cover. It only amounted to a dollar or so expense per car, but Ford figured since the likelihood of such an accident was relatively small, it would be cheaper just to pay any resulting claims than to fix every car. I don't know who's more to blame here. Engineers, bureaucrats, lawyers, nature for allowing the formation of rust, careless drivers or all of the above?
 
Corporate boards will make decisions based on the good if the corporation ...generals based on best outcome for the war, battle or country..

Depends a lot on what that baseline is....do churches base all their decisions on the good of the church ? Or the parishioners? Or the community? Or of mankind? Their needs don't all coincide...
 
wil said:
Corporate boards will make decisions based on the good if the corporation ...generals based on best outcome for the war, battle or country..

Depends a lot on what that baseline is....do churches base all their decisions on the good of the church ? Or the parishioners? Or the community? Or of mankind? Their needs don't all coincide...
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Exactly! The collective outweighs the individual.
 
Devils' Advocate said:
In this we do have a fundamental difference in how we look at reality.
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OK, but I think I might not have explained myself very well.

Devils' Advocate said:
From a theological perspective I understand that it might be considered a delusion that it is we who nurture our own nature.
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My position on this is not specifically theological ... in fact I'd say it's more 'scientific' ...

Devils' Advocate said:
... it is perfectly reasonable to me that it is, indeed must, be ourselves who nurture our own nature.
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Actually that's the Catholic theological position (as opposed to the Reformation traditions)!

But what I meant was the idea that we are independent of the sitz im leben, the zeitgeist, or whatever we want to call it. We're not, we're the product of our time and place and culture and heritage.

Example: An art historian produced two pictures, one by a European artist, one by a Japanese artist, both who were working some 2-300 years ago, and both claimed they were entirely individual and without any exterior formative influence. Could the audience guess which was which? They did, with 100% accuracy. No doubt both artists were working outside the 'schools' of their own culture, but nevertheless culture still prevails.

Anyone alive today who thinks he or she is not the product of the mileau into which they were born is kidding themselves, that's the kind of delusion I'm talking about. And an aspect of that is the idea that we can control nature and shape it to our own ends. A delusion of the so-called Age of Enlightenment, in which nature was presented as a wanton woman who needed to be tamed.

So by delusion I meant the idea that in a head-to-head between man and nature, nature will win.

Some commentaries on science disassociate man from the Cosmos. As you've argued before, the traditional view (not just theological, by the way, but Aristotelian) puts the planet at the centre, with the various celestial orbs wrapped round it. Now we see that we are just the third one out in a solar system, which is just one of billions, on the edge of the Milky Way, which is just one of billions ... etc, etc.

I say some because this too often carries a nihilistic overtone which I don't think is what science would have us derive from the facts. I don't see scientists being fatalistic or Kafkaesque about our place in the Cosmos, rather the opposite, I see them full of delight, wonder, inspiration, etc.

But since then, and primarily since the 60s, there's been an increasing shift towards the Philosophy of Relativism that has the tendency for us to see ourselves as separate from the society in which we live – to the point that we now comment on society as if we're dispassionate observers, a bit like anthropologists in our own lands. We're as much a part of the problem as the problems we like to point at in others.

As some philosophers have observed, personal narrative is now more important that traditional ideas of 'truth', which is the collective or communal narrative. This is a principle point and seems to have escaped the notice of some correspondents here. They might scoff, but it's the way the world works. And, like democracy, 'it's the worst way of determining truth, but it's better than all the others'

This reflects back to the torturer in Wil's example. He knows that the community believe torture to be wrong, but he knows the community's wrong. Therefore he's justified in doing what he's doing, and in his mind no blame can attach. You end up with Jack Nicholson's oration in A Few Good Men.
 
You don't wanna know the truth...we stand on that wall.. Ends justify the means...

It is that justification that we go through to make our 'best' decision in the moment...it is the repercussions or other new information that leads us to regret that decision...

And while it think self forgiveness is paramount to further personal growth (removing the shackles holding you back) I also would like to know any scriptural references that say it has to be accomplished first.
 
wil said:
It is that justification that we go through to make our 'best' decision in the moment...it is the repercussions or other new information that leads us to regret that decision...
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Yep. That or getting caught :D

wil said:
And while it think self forgiveness is paramount to further personal growth (removing the shackles holding you back) I also would like to know any scriptural references that say it has to be accomplished first.
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What has to be accomplished first?
 
Still not quite sure what you're getting at, or the point you're trying to get to?

I would have thought all the world's sacra doctrina is all about change?
 
Earlier Aussie gave a demon that it was scriptural... That self forgiveness was first...I was wondering what the reference was...

But post that I simply attmted to answer your question...(and I don't speak Latin..so can't answer)
 
wil said:
Earlier Aussie gave a demon that it was scriptural... That self forgiveness was first...I was wondering what the reference was...

But post that I simply attmted to answer your question...(and I don't speak Latin..so can't answer)
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I don't know of any Biblical passages that directly say to forgive ourselves, but there are countless references to forgiveness in the Bible where forgiveness of others comes prior to God's forgiveness of us. Thus it is strongly implied throughout.

Philippians 3:13
Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,

Mark 11:25
And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

Matthew 6:14-15
For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Ephesians 4:31
Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.

Luke 17:3-4
Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.
 
wil said:
Earlier Aussie gave a demon that it was scriptural... That self forgiveness was first...I was wondering what the reference was...
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Don't know.

I would have thought it unlikely, the idea of 'self-forgiveness' is quite a modern psychological position, the fruit of an ego-oriented society.

Then again, for anyone who claims to be a believer in the Abrahamic Tradition, then God's forgiveness and mercy is a given. So anyone who is not prepared to forgive themselves is really not listening to what Scripture is saying.

And forgiveness is really an act of love. If you love your neighbour, you will forgive him. But the caution here is 'self-forgiveness' is not self-love, that's not healthy in any sense, and it's forgiveness not seen in its true and broader context.

But there are texts that can be read in that way:
"For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God" (1 Corinthians 15:9).
Here's an example of how Paul's guilt could have held him back.

But Paul realised that forgiveness is not about condoning wrong actions, nor is it a lack of accountability. It's about clearing the ground, 'making straight the way' and moving forward. That requires repentance, a change of heart, and reconciliation. Reconcile yourself to yourself, and yourself to the community in which you live, and yourself to God.

The Bible never talks about self-forgiveness, it does talk a lot about forgiving others, and God forgiving us. In fact it seems conditional that we should forgive others, if we ourselves want to be forgiven, and then the obvious point is how can we forgive others, and how can God forgive us, if we will not forgive ourselves?

It is said the greatest sin is the sin against the Holy Spirit. And what is that sin? It's the refusal to accept God's love. As you say, so rightly, we are punished by our sins, not for them...

Here's the tough text.
 
Namaste Jesus said:
No, that was early versions of the Ford Pinto hatchback and sedan. At issue was the position of the fuel tank in relation to the rear differential. In a rear end collision it was possible for the fuel tank to hit the differential and rupture creating the potential for fire. It was mainly a problem as the cars aged and began to rust. Ford took the position that since they could control neither rust nor accidents, they had no liability, but because they had prior knowledge of the potential problem, the courts thought differently.

The fix as it turns out was a simple plastic cap fitted over the differential cover. It only amounted to a dollar or so expense per car, but Ford figured since the likelihood of such an accident was relatively small, it would be cheaper just to pay any resulting claims than to fix every car. I don't know who's more to blame here. Engineers, bureaucrats, lawyers, nature for allowing the formation of rust, careless drivers or all of the above?
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Hey NJ, remember this?
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