The Abrahamic Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free Card?

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by Devils' Advocate, Jan 31, 2016.

  1. Devils' Advocate

    Devils' Advocate Well-Known Member

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    Joe said in another thread "Not unless it (punishment) is undeserved. An authority of good judiciousness wouldn't cause harm to those who didn't deserve it, but to those who did, they would receive it. There is no good in letting a mass murderer free out of pity. it just doesn't work. A judge must be willing to help those that deserve it, and punish those who transgress the limits."

    Which brings up a question I have long pondered and his words are as good as any to introduce the topic. Now I do not know how it works in Islam but in Christianity there seems to be a loophole to being bad that let's a bad person off the hook.

    As is usual when it comes to the Abrahamics, what I am discussing is probably not accurate, but here it goes.

    According to my understanding of the Christian tradition a person can do bad things their entire life. If they seek repentance, truly desire it on their death bed, they can be absolved of their sins and they get to take the UP escalator.

    Is this accurate? IF it is, it strikes me as a significant loophole in the tradition. One can knowingly misbehave their entire life, knowing as long as they truly repent at the end, it is all wiped clean as if it never happened. There seems little motivation to keep on the true path if this is so.

    Is this also true of Islam?
     
  2. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea An ordinary cup of tea

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    I think you phrase it oddly, as if you can plan a change of heart on your death bed. I don't think, and I think Thomas indicates this in that thread, that fear of punishment is love for God nor understanding the error of their ways. And I think repentance require at least the later.
     
  3. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    The good book says so...one of the criminals being crucified, mocking him on the cross was told he would be with Jesus in paradise..
     
  4. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    DA,

    I believe we will held accountable for every bad thing we do (and every good thing too!), no matter how big or small. This goes against the ideas of Christianity, which is why I am not a Christian. I do not think someone like Hitler could have repented on his deathbed and escaped hell.
     
  5. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    So there is a theosophical hell?
     
  6. farhan

    farhan Active Member

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    1. “When the Earth shall quake with a mighty quaking.”
    2. “And the Earth shall cast forth her burdens,"
    3. “And man shall say (distressed): What has befallen her?"
    4. “On That Day, she will recount (all) her news:"
    5. “For that your Lord will have given her inspiration.”
    6. “On That Day, people shall come forth in groups to be shown their deeds.”

    7. “So, whoever has done an atom's weight of good shall behold it.”
    8. “And whoever has done an atom's weight of evil shall behold it.”

    Quran, Chapter 99

    From Islam's POV, a life long of evil deeds can only be forgiven if the one who suffered from those evil deeds forgives him. Otherwise, eye for eye and tooth for tooth to the end.
     
  7. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    In Christianity and Judaism "and eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" is not the prescribed punishment for anything, but the maximum punishment from person to person...except all that rediculous Leviticus stoning which went out the window centuries ago.

    But interesting... You are saying that every suicide bomber goes to hell instead of heaven...spread that word...
     
  8. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Yep.

    In which case the repentance will not be genuine. The 'repentance' will be part and parcel of the misbehaving. It's like setting up your alibi before you commit the crime.

    Or put another way, allow God the insight to have seen that loophole and closed it!
     
  9. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Spot on.
     
  10. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Read it again, Wil, I think you'll find you're mistaken.
     
  11. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Actually it doesn't, so your position is founded on a misunderstanding.

    You claim a sort of Buddhism, and yet Buddhism as I understand it requires us to let go of suffering, not hang on to it.
     
  12. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    Yes, there is.
     
  13. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    On which part? In Matthew it says the criminals mocked him like the crowd and in Luke that he would be with him in paradise...
     
  14. Devils' Advocate

    Devils' Advocate Well-Known Member

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    Devils' Advocate said:
    I do not think someone like Hitler could have repented on his deathbed and escaped hell
    .

    Actually Nick said that. I get in enough trouble with what I do say without adding in stuff I didn't! ;)
     
  15. Devils' Advocate

    Devils' Advocate Well-Known Member

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    And what of this?

    Question: "What does the Bible say about a death bed conversion?"

    Answer: The most high-profile death bed / last-minute conversion to Christ in the Bible is the case of the criminal crucified alongside Jesus (Luke 23:39-43). Only moments before his own death, this criminal had been an unbelieving mocker of Christ (see Matthew 27:44). However, at the last moment the criminal repented and acknowledged Jesus as the heavenly King. The Lord gave him the blessed promise, “Today you shall be with Me in Paradise.

    From http://www.gotquestions.org/death-bed-conversion.html

    This story and many, many others of its ilk that have come after it explain that the entrance into Heaven isn't what one's deeds were; rather whether one accepts Christ as their savior. Thoughts?
     
  16. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    DA,

    I believe that, after we die, we are not even asked if we believe in Jesus, Buddha, etc. I don't think it even comes up. But I do think we are asked about the good and bad things we did in life.
     
  17. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    By whom?
     
  18. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Not altogether taken by it.

    I could go into a long discourse from the scholars on this topic, but I won't. Suffice to say a kind of trick deathbed confession is just that, a trick, whereas a heart-felt confession is true ... that's the theological lesson. The other is that God's love is infinite, and not dependent upon humans who have a need and desire to see the wrong-doer punished to satisfy their own sense of justice, let alone God's.

    A change of heart, at the last instant, would actually suffice, but the penitent must still face Christ, as it were, and face up to his or her wrongs. They must feel contrition for their wrong, or they're kidding themselves and they're not penitent at all. So A.H. could have a profound change of heart at the very last, and cry out for mercy, and be heard, and be received ... but he would still have to face up to what he had done. Forgiveness does not rewrote history, it forgives ... metanoia, which is what it's all about, does not wipe the memory from the heart ... and, I dare say, the experience of seeing what one has done 'in a new light' would be an experience of the worst kind of hell one could imagine.

    Why does not Matthew mention the penitent sinner?

    Well probably because Matthew was not there, and the compiler of Matthew used a sayings gospel and then filled out the details from Mark, and elsewhere. Mark uses Peter's testimony (his catechetical lectures when under arrest in Rome) by majority, but Peter wasn't there either. Luke uses Mark, he is aware of an early Matthew, and he has his own sources, one of them being Jesus' mother, who was there at the foot of the cross ...
     
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  19. Devils' Advocate

    Devils' Advocate Well-Known Member

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    No I never considered a trick deathbed confession as relevant. It was the heart-felt confession on the deathbed that piqued my interest.

    That the person must still face Christ - I don't really know what that means. Bottom line, the person still gets to Heaven. So I'm still vague on the answer here. A true conversion at the end of one's life, a life of evil, would negate that life of evil as far as I can tell from what you are saying.
     
  20. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    Let's see if I can give a brief answer. One can make Tawbah (a sincere apology and a sincere attempt to stop committing a sin) at any time. If Allah knows that it is a sincere turn, he will forgive all sins you make Tawbah for. There are conditions, for instance one must not be committing "Shirk" (associating partners with Allah). It is also generally accepted one must intend to make repentance for those sins and have a sincere attempt to do so, however if one passes before the attempt can be made, the intention will count for the whole repentance.

    The following Link is to a general example. I am not saying the Hadith is good, or that the writer is knowledgeable enough to make such claims. But while reading it, it seems to be accurate as to the ways I've been taught.
    http://www.islamicislamic.com/sins_repentance.htm#2._Sins,_repentance_and_forgiveness


    Nouman Ali Khan discusses the right way to do Tawbah. (mind you his audience is Muslim so try to understand)
     
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