A question about sects

Discussion in 'Islam' started by Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine, Jun 23, 2016.

  1. Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

    Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine Junior Moderator, Intro

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    Specifically, what are the similarities and the differences between Sunni and Sufi Muslims?

    I apologize if this question has already been answered, but I'm honestly curious, and thank you for your time.

    Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine
     
  2. Friend

    Friend In the Name of God

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    Hi
    Please let me try to answer your Question ,,
    Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)didn't call for sufism , he sent to give peoples clearly message from Allah . As muslims prophet mohammad give us lessons on how we can worship Allah , with Five Pillars of Islam . Sufi uses new ways of worship were not from the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him .

    The word “Sufism” was not known at the time of the Messenger or his friends( the Sahaabah) .
    Sufism has numerous branches or tareeqahs, such as the Teejaniyyah, Qaadiriyyah, Naqshbandiyyah, Shaadhiliyyah, Rifaa’iyyah, etc., the followers of which all claim that their particular tareeqah is on the path of truth whilst the others are following falsehood. Islam forbids such sectarianism. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

    “… and be not of al-mushrikoon (the disbelievers in the Oneness of Allaah, polytheists, idolaters, etc),

    Of those who split up their religion (i.e., who left the true Islamic monotheism), and became sects, [i.e., they invented new things in the religion (bid’ah) and followed their vain desires], each sect rejoicing in that which is with it.” [al-Room 30:31-32]

    The Sufis worship others than Allaah, such as Prophets and “awliya’” [“saints”], living or dead. They say, “Yaa Jeelaani”, “Yaa Rifaa’i” [calling on their awliya’], or “O Messenger of Allaah, help and save” or “O Messenger of Allaah, our dependence is on you”, etc.

    But Allaah forbids us to call on anyone except Him in matters that are beyond the person's capabilities. If a person does this, Allaah will count him as a mushrik, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):

    “And invoke not, besides Allaah, any that will neither profit you, nor hurt you, but if (in case) you did so, you shall certainly be one of the zaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers).” [Yoonus 10:106]

    The Sufis believe that there are abdaal, aqtaab and awliya’ (kinds of “saints”) to whom Allaah has given the power to run the affairs of the universe. Allaah tells us about the mushrikeen (interpretation of the meaning):

    “Say [O Muhammad]: ‘…And who disposes the affairs?’ They will say. ‘Allaah.’…” [Yoonus 10:31]

    The mushrik Arabs knew more about Allaah than these Sufis!

    The Sufis turn to other than Allaah when calamity strikes, but Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

    “And if Allaah touches you with harm, none can remove it but He, and if He touches you with good, then He is Able to do all things.” [al-An’aam 6:17]

    Some Sufis believe in wahdat al-wujood (unity of existence). They do not have the idea of a Creator and His creation, instead they say that everything is creation and everything is god.

    The Sufis advocate extreme asceticism in this life and do not believe in taking the necessary means or in jihaad, but Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

    “But seek with that (wealth) which Allaah has bestowed on you, the home of the Hereafter, and forget not your portion of legal enjoyment in this world…” [al-Qasas 28:77]

    “And make ready against them all that you can of power…” [al-Anfaal 8:60]

    The Sufis refer the idea of ihsaan to their shaykhs and tell their followers to have a picture of their shaykh in mind when they remember Allaah and even when they are praying. Some of them even put a picture of their shaykh in front of them when they are praying. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Ihsaan is when you worship Allaah as if you can see Him, and although you cannot see Him, He can see you.” (Reported by Muslim).

    The Sufis allow dancing, drums and musical instruments, and raising the voice when making dhikr, but Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

    “The believers are only those who, when Allaah is mentioned, feel a fear in their hearts…” [al-Anfaal 8:2]

    Moreover, you see some of them making dhikr by only pronouncing the Name of Allaah, saying, “Allaah, Allaah, Allaah.” This is bid’ah and has no meaning in Islam. They even go to the extreme of saying, “Ah, ah” or “Hu, Hu.” The Sunnah is for the Muslim to remember his Lord in words that have a true meaning for which he will be rewarded, such as saying Subhaan Allaah wa Alhamdulillah wa Laa ilaaha illa Allaah wa Allaahu akbar, and so on.

    The Sufis recite love poems mentioning the names of women and boys in their dhikr gatherings, and they repeat words such as “love”, “passion”, “desire” and so on, as if they are in a gathering where people dance and drink wine and clap and shout. All of this has to do with the customs and acts of worship of the mushrikeen. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

    “Their salaah (prayer) at the House (of Allaah, i.e., the Ka’bah at Makkah) was nothing but whistling and clapping of hands…”

    [al-Anfaal 8:35]


    Some Sufis pierce themselves with rods of iron, saying, “O my grandfather!” So the shayaateen come to them and help them, because they are seeking the help of someone other than Allaah . Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

    “And whosoever turns away (blinds himself) from the remembrance of the Most Beneficent (Allaah), We appoint for him a shaytaan (devil) to be a qareen (intimate companion) for him.”

    [al-Zukhruf 43:36]


    The Sufis claim to have gnosis and knowledge of the unseen, but the Qur’aan shows them to be liars. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

    “Say: ‘None in the heavens and the earth knows the ghayb (unseen) except Allaah…’” [al-Naml 27:65]

    The Sufis claim that Allaah created the world for the sake of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), but the Qur’aan shows them to be liars. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

    “And I (Allaah) created not the jinns and humans except they should worship Me (Alone).” [al-Dhaariyaat 51:56]

    Allaah, may He be glorified and exalted, addressed His Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) with the words (interpretation of the meaning):

    “And worship your Lord until there comes unto the certainty (i.e., death).” [al-Hijr 15:99]

    The Sufis claim that they can see Allaah in this life, but the Qur’aan shows them to be liars. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

    “[Moosa said:] ‘O my Lord! Show me (Yourself), that I may look upon You.’ Allaah said, ‘You cannot see Me…’” [al-A’raaf 7:143]

    The Sufis claim that they take knowledge directly from Allaah, without the mediation of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and in a conscious state (as opposed to dreams). So are they better than the Sahaabah??

    The Sufis claim that they take knowledge directly from Allaah, without the mediation of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). They say, “Haddathani qalbi ‘an Rabbi (My heart told me from my Lord).”

    The Sufis celebrate Mawlid and hold gatherings for sending blessings on the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), but they go against his teachings by raising their voices in dhikr and anaasheed (religious songs) and qaseedahs (poems) that contain blatant shirk. Did the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) celebrate his birthday? Did Abu Bakr, ‘Umar, ‘Uthman, ‘Ali, the four imaams or anyone else celebrate his birthday? Who knows more and is more correct in worship, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and the Salaf, or the Sufis?

    The Sufis travel to visit graves and seek blessings from their occupants or to make tawaaf (ritual circumambulation) around them or to make sacrifices at these sites, all of which goes against the teachings of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “Do not travel to visit any place but three mosques: al-Masjid al-Haraam [in Makkah], this mosque of mine [in Madeenah] and al-Masjid al-Aqsa [in Jerusalem].” (Agreed upon).

    The Sufis are blindly loyal to their shaykhs, even when what they go against the words of Allaah and His Messenger. But Allaah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning):

    “O you who believe! Do not put (yourselves) forward before Allaah and His Messenger…” [al-Hujuraat 49:1]

    The Sufis use talismans, letters and numbers for making decisions and for making amulets and charms and so on.

    The Sufis do not restrict themselves to the specific blessings on the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) that were narrated from him. They invented new formulas that involve seeking his blessings and other kinds of blatant shirk which are unacceptable to the one on whom they are sending blessings.

    With regard to the question of the whether the Sufi shaykhs have some kind of contact, this is true, but their contact is with the shayaateen, not with Allaah, so they inspire one another with adorned speech as a delusion (or by way of deception), as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

    “And so We have appointed for every Prophet enemies – shayaateen (devils) among mankind and jinns, inspiring one another with adorned speech as a delusion (or by way of deception). If your Lord had so willed, they would not have done it…” [al-An’aam 6:112]

    And Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

    “… And, certainly, the shayaateen (devils) do inspire their friends (from mankind)…” [al-An’aam 6:121]

    “Shall I inform you (O people!) upon whom the shayaateen (devils) descend?

    They descend on every lying, sinful person.” [al-Shu’ara 221-222]

    This is the contact that is real, not the contact that they falsely claim to have with Allaah. Exalted be Allaah far above that. (See Mu’jam al-Bida’, 346 –359).

    When some of these Sufi shaykhs disappear suddenly from the sight of their followers, this is the result of their contact with the shayaateen, who may even carry them to a distant place and bring them back in the same day or night, to mislead their human followers.

    So the important rule here is not to judge people by the extraordinary feats that they may do. We should judge them by how closely or otherwise they adhere to the Qur’aan and Sunnah. The true friends of Allaah (awliya’) are not necessarily known for performing astounding feats. On the contrary, they are the ones who worship Allaah in the manner that He has prescribed, and not by doing acts of bid’ah. The true awliya’ or friends of Allaah are those whom our Lord has described in the hadeeth qudsi narrated by al-Bukhaari in his Saheeh (5/2384) from Abu Hurayrah, who said:

    The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Allaah said, ‘Whoever shows enmity towards a friend (wali) of Mine, I declare war against him. My slave does not draw close to Me with anything more loved by Me than the religious duties that I have enjoined on him, and My slave continues to draw close to Me with supererogatory (naafil) acts, so that I will love him. When I love him, I am his hearing with which he hears, his seeing with which he sees, his hand with which he strikes and his foot with which he walks. Were he to ask [something] of Me, I would surely give it to him, and were he to ask Me for refuge, I would surely grant him it.’”

    And Allaah is the Source of Strength and the Guide to the Straight Path.

    https://islamqa.info/en/4983
     
  3. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Now we need to ask a Sufi, what is wrong with the Sunni belief? Or Shia? Sufism is shown here as separate... upload_2016-6-23_11-12-34.png
     
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  4. Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

    Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine Junior Moderator, Intro

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    Thank you for your response. It will take a while for me to wrap my head around all of the information. I hope you don't mind.

    Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine
     
  5. Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

    Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine Junior Moderator, Intro

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    The only Sufis I'm vaguely familiar with are/were Muhammad Ali and his immediate family. I'm too shy to approach the family and Ali's not able to answer any questions. :oops:

    Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine
     
  6. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    He only became sufi later in life...and the american version which I love to dance with...
     
  7. farhan

    farhan Active Member

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    Mainly there are two sects in Islam. Sunni who believe in the consensus of Prophet's companions. And Shia who believe in Muhammad's messianic lineage . They both have the same Quran but different set of Hadith.

    Sufi is the mystical tradition associated with Islam. Sufi and Sunni arnt mutually exclusive. A non-sufi-sunni usually focusses on law alone and a bit of ethics. For a Sufi-Sunni, mind/heart training is equally or more important than just following the law. There is no such thing as a "Sufi creed", they are all followers of standard Sunni creed. But as with all mysticism, you will find stuff about "mystical experience" by those who takeup "mystical practices". These experiences do get standardized over time and do become quasi-creed kind of thing.

    The above is a pretty generic definition. In real world you will find Sunnis who think Sufism is outside Islam. And you will also find Sufis who also think they dont need to be a part of Islam. Since "Sufi" isnt a copyrighted label, anybody can use it. What you want to achieve is more important than labels.
     
  8. Ahmad232

    Ahmad232 Member

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    salamualikum Friend, how r u? :)

    that was basically the salafi view you have given above sister; as you probably know salafi's are a tiny minorty out of the Muslims; the mainstream Muslims however argue that sufism has been part of Islam from the early days:

    http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/sufitlk.htm

    so to clarify to our readers, sunni and sufi are not mutually exclusive [to borrow some words from Farhan! :)] as sufism is incorporated within sunni Islam!

    ps; this is a Islam compatiable sufism im talking about and not the perrenialistic pagan sufism practiced by non-muslim sects or by some who call themselves muslims :)
     
  9. Islam Yehia

    Islam Yehia New Member

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    for me quran and prophet Mohamed peace to be upon him asked us to be Muslims just Muslims with no any other term!
    being Sunni, sufi, shiaa or whatever you want to call yourself rather than a Muslim, so you get yourself a label that isn't preached in quran or authentic hadith, and i don;t understand why sunni call themselves sunni, actually they don't need to do

    we are commanded to follow quran and hadith teaching, anything else deviated from those teaching is called bad innovation in religion

    for your question, i'm not pro putting sufi in one basket, there are astray sufi who are doing many things that against the core of Islam and the core of monotheism like asking the dead people to heal them or believing that dead people could harm or help them this is purely against Islamic monotheism concept

    while there are many other good Sufi who understands Islam truly but they mainly concern about the spirituality more than any other thing which is needed in the current time and this i don't see any difference between them and the majority of sunni except the spirituality level
     
  10. Ahmad232

    Ahmad232 Member

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    at first muslims were only known as muslims but when many deviant groups emerged then it was neccassary to give the original correctly guided muslims a name by which people can recognise they are the correct group as every group will call themselves muslim

    'sunni' is short for the people of sunnah and the majority; prophet himself gave this term for describing the rightly guided group; when asked how people will recognise the rightly guided muslims in times of many sects, he said they'd be the people who follow my sunnah and they'd be the majority group
     
  11. Islam Yehia

    Islam Yehia New Member

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    even the prophet describing who are the guided people, but you'll find he never neither any of the companion use it on a daily life to distinguish themselves from other misguided groups

    by the way i don't consider who called themselves sunni as an astray group or mislead sect as their actions in common are in line with quran and hadith but just i'm not pro the term
     
  12. Ahmad232

    Ahmad232 Member

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    At Prophet's time there was no significant different sect; the shia's came after the Prophet's [saw] demise. also during the Prophet's times there was no need for a distingushing name as it was obvious that ALlah's Messengers group will be rightly guided
     
  13. dreamytrident

    dreamytrident New Member

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    Hi

    We know that The Prophet Muhammad claimed that the Gospels and Torah at His time were crutial and very, very important for all Muslims to look to, study and read and by them, all Muslims Even future Sufism Muslims are commanded to always turn to the Gospels and Torah and see Confirmation, Direction, and Clarity of the Word Of Allah.

    Unfortunately, Mohammad never sent the message or command for anyone to preserve a single page of the Gospels nor the Torah.

    The Sunni and Sufi Muslims do not really agree on worship techniques because The Torah clearly lays out all of Gods plans Prophecies and The Final Message is contained in the Torah and Gospels. This refusal and ignoring of the Torah and Gospels in preserving and maintaining them, have led to a complete breakdown in Islamic agreement on many things, creating strife and even violence.

    The saddest thing for Muslims as a whole is the fact that Mohammad told them all that the Torah and Gospels were there for them to study and that His prophecy and revelations were confirmed BY The Torah and BY The Gospels. Everything that Mohammad revealed and prophecied as he received Spiritual revelations from Allah. But Muslims did not have any interest in Allah's word in neither the Torah nor the Gospels.

    Muslims have lost or thrown away every single last page of the entire word of God before the seventh century. This has wrecked such tremendous havoc, devastation, destruction, damage, desolation, ruination and many other problems for Muslims worldwide.

    The multiple sects of Islam is a very complicated matter with many Muslims borrowing many of the Ideas of their genetic brothers and relatives the Italian people The Roman Catholics of the Canaanite, Persian, Arabian / European neighbors in Italy { Italians } who have contributed influence and Catholic ideas that these Muslim sects have adopted somewhat into their versions of Islam. The Sufis who believe in wahdat al-wujood ( unity of existence) See The Creator that Has become a Part of His creation with everything that is created is also Allah.

    Their Canaanite, Persian Arabian European neighbors called Italians have been able to pour and mix their own ideas into the sects of Islam as Roman Catholic Italian also profess to the same idea that Allah has placed Himself into a limited partial part of His creation.

    As Roman Catholics - The Sufis also advocate extreme asceticism in this life and do not believe in taking the necessary means or in Jihaad, But for many other Muslims The Forgiveness of sins for Crusading / Jihaad and going to war is a common Canaanite, Persian, Arabian / European CATHOLISLAMIC commonality.:

    Kill, Be killed and wage war, crush Your opponents and You will go to heaven and sins are forgiven. Roman Catholics and Muslims have capitalized on this idea for centuries with millions of CATHOLISLAMICs headed to heaven and closer to Allah by the methods of the battlefield and war.

    As their Roman Catholic counterparts, The Sufis place Idol like pictures of their shaykhs in front of them when they are praying. Allaah wa Alhamdulillah wa Laa ilaaha illa Allaah wa Allaahu Akbar, and so on.

    There is a history of Roman Catholics who have inflicted self-punishment and affliction and self-mutilation and torture upon their bodies such as St. Catherine of Siena wore sackcloth and whipped and beat herself three times daily in imitation of St. Dominic. In the early twentieth century, Roman Catholics also wore tight cords around their waists and flogged themselves with stinging nettles. Muslims and Catholics both share a world of
    Mortification of the flesh.

    We see that Some Sufis pierce themselves with rods of iron and there are many Muslims who beat themselves as their Italian bloodline relatives and neighbors have also done this for centuries. The pagan Roman Catholic festivals of celebrations of birthdays also has been adopted by Muslims.

    In Egypt, The Sufis say they will mark the birthday of the Prophet Mohammed as they planned

    The Sufis travel to visit graves and seek blessings from their occupants or to make tawaaf (ritual circumambulation) around them or to make sacrifices at these sites. The Sufis also do use talismans, letters numbers for making decisions and communicating with unseen forces in the spiritual world and make amulets and charms and spells.

    All of these comparisons and similarities are very common into the Area. The Canaanite, Persian, Arabian Europeans of Italy { Roman Catholics } have contributed much to these various sects of Islam and The Prophet Mohammad has also contributed Revelations, Prophecies and Spiritual Messages to the Religion Of Catholicism. Itself. These vast number of people In and around Canaan are very related to one another and share a very vast religious aspect and even worship the very same exact god.

    I believe that if Muslims could somehow locate and find the Torah and Gospels it would clear up everything and possibly reunite all Muslims and Roman Catholics back to their genetic roots of the land.

    But according to Muslims, we have no idea what the Torah and Gospels have to say without the aid of the Quran and we have no idea what the Quran means without the Aid of the Torah and Gospels. This problem is created by the fact that Muslims did not preserve the Torah or The Gospels while today they claim that they have been corrupted.

    I feel that if Muslims had preserved the Torah and Gospels and that there was agreement, I would fall to my knees and accept Islam and become a Muslim.

    But I also know that Muslims did not preserve anything that existed before 700 AD. This will continue to be a problem but I hope that Muslims will someday work together to make the world around them a better place. God bless everyone.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2018
  14. Arif Ghamiq

    Arif Ghamiq Active Member

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    I suggest reflection upon the use of the word shi'a in 37:83

    Ibrahim (as) was of the same shi'a as Nuh/Noah (as).

    It depends upon the context whether or not the word shi'a means "sect" (deen - often translated "religion" can also mean "sect" as well as "judgment").

    The same is true for the term Sufi. No doubt many Sufis are guilty of Shirk (association - polytheism) & Bid'at (innovation), but there are also many Sufis that strictly adhere to Quran and Sunnah.

    It appears to me that Sufism arose due to a lack of Spirituality within the Muslim Ummah (Community/Nation) and from an abundance of shallow, superficial thinking among the Religious leaders - And Allah Al 'Aleem (The All-Knowing) knows best.
     
  15. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    We have how many thousands of sects of Christianity? Not clear exactly what that was all about. You are new....so you may need to understand that we don't tell other religions where they went wrong on our interfaith board...

    It is appropritate to ask questions of Muslims...to learn more about their viewpoints and understanding of their religion.... If one wants to discuss nuances and issues amongst their own belief system..that is done on our own boards.
     
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  16. Arif Ghamiq

    Arif Ghamiq Active Member

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    For insight into the history, beliefs and practices of Sufis (and Dervish) I recommend "The Sufis" by Idreis Shah.

    For a Sufi text I highly recommend "The Hikam of ibn ata illah"
     
  17. Arif Ghamiq

    Arif Ghamiq Active Member

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    Understood
     
  18. dreamytrident

    dreamytrident New Member

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    Muslims are always happy to discuss nuances and issues amongst their own belief system. I would be delighted and raptured if given an opportunity to ask questions to appease my inner self and the overflowing love of a commemoration to many, many good friends who pass through along the ebbs of a mutual championship.

    but there are no answers and no way to ask in the form of a question. So many missing pages.
     
  19. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    It was your post I was addressing...I found a whole lot of statements...about what other people think...yet not one question.
     
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  20. Arif Ghamiq

    Arif Ghamiq Active Member

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    Indeed, the word "Sufi" is not in The Quran, but neither is the word "Wudu", a word we use and a thing we do (ritual washing) all the time.

    And just as the act & process of Wudu is prescribed and described in Quran, so are the primary acts of Tasawwuf/Sufism, such as Dhikr (Remembrance) and Tafakkur (Pondering, Reflection, Meditation).
     

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