A question about sects

Discussion in 'Islam' started by Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine, Jun 23, 2016.

  1. StevePame

    StevePame Administrator Admin

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    @dreamytrident I encourage you to heed wil’s suggestion and review the code of conduct if you haven’t already.
     
  2. dreamytrident

    dreamytrident New Member

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    You are right.

    I absolutely have no questions to ask. The forum here is based on a Question. I was only providing more FACTS about the subject in order to obtain a foundation to place answers upon.

    I was hoping that You would have something to correct concerning my Facts. But I see that there is nothing to correct to the facts that I provided.
    I am happy to show You each and every single time that I am able to do so - anything that you may need to know to answer questions that Muslims ask.

    But after thirteen hundred Years, Muslims should already know these answers and even more = Non-Muslims also should know. And there seems to be a bottomless hole and book full of empty pages that could be filled just by adding facts and truth. I believe that You and others here may be Sola Quran in many aspects of this subject.

    please eXplain Your Fathers revelations and prophecies in light of the Facts ?
     
  3. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea Well-Known Member

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    You're not going to like this place Dreamy, we aren't that interested in debates or what you consider to be facts.
     
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  4. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    lol, this is what many of us saw, and still see.
     
  5. yragnitup

    yragnitup New Member

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    Gosh ! The Hell must be a very crowded place.

    It was narrated from ‘Awf bin Malik that the Messenger of Allah(ﷺ) said:

    “The Jews split into seventy-one sects, one of which will be in Paradise and seventy in Hell. The Christians split into seventy-two sects, seventy-one of which will be in Hell and one in Paradise. I swear by the One Whose Hand is the soul of Muhammad, my nation will split into seventy-three sects, one of which will be in Paradise and seventy-two in Hell.” It was said: “O Messenger of Allah, who are they?” He said: “The main body.”


    Reference : Sunan Ibn Majah 3992 Book of Tribulations » Hadith
    In-book reference : Book 36, Hadith 67
    English translation : Vol. 5, Book 36, Hadith 399
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2018
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  6. Arif Ghamiq

    Arif Ghamiq Active Member

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    The overwhelming majority ("main body") of Muslims believe in The Oneness of Allah and the Finality of Prophet Muhammad. We go to Masjid, do our Prayers, work, pay our bills, love our families, watch TV, spend time with friends and just live our lives.

    Sure, the "main body" is flawed, imperfect and (in my opinion) in need of an increase of depth & spirituality, but such is the human condition (Surahs 95 & 103).

    The radical-extremist and terrorist represent a very, very small percentage of the nearly two billion Muslims on the planet.
     
  7. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    But they have the best musicians, actors, and chefs! (unfortunately probably the vast majority of politicians as well)
     
  8. yandex

    yandex New Member

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    Hell & heaven in Islam doesn't depend on your deeds & sins. Its already predetermined. Even a sinless innocent child is not exempted. Unbelievable!!

    It was narrated that 'Aishah the Mother of the Believers said:


    "The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) was called to the funeral of a child from among the Ansar. I said: 'O Messenger of Allah, glad tidings for him! He is one of the little birds of Paradise, who never did evil or reached the age of doing evil (i.e, the age of accountability).' He said: 'It may not be so, O 'Aishah! For Allah created people for Paradise, He created them for it when they were still in their father's loins, And He has created people for Hell, He created them for it when they were still in their fathers' loins.'"

    English reference : Vol. 1, Book 1, Hadith 82 ,Sunan Ibn Majah ;The Book of the Sunnah - كتاب المقدمة
    Arabic reference : Book 1, Hadith 86
     
  9. Arif Ghamiq

    Arif Ghamiq Active Member

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    Allah says in The Quran:

    "Surely whosoever works evil and is encompassed by it, will be the inmates of the Fire, therein they will abide.
    And those who believe and do works of righteousness, they are the inmates of the Jannah (Paradise/Garden), therein they will abide."
    (2:81-82)​

    Throughout The Quran we are taught that our actions will be judged - that we will be held accountable for our actions and that there are consequences for them. This is very clear in Quran.

    "And there is not for man except that which he strives for, (53:39)

    In fact, according to Quran, good deeds are multiplied while evil deeds are not:

    "Whosoever comes with a good deed, for him will be ten times the like thereof; and whosoever comes with an evil deed will be recompenced not but with the like thereof, and they will not be dealt with unjustly". (6:160)

    Any Hadith must be judged in light of Quranic understanding. Hadiths differ on this very issue. Nothing overrides Quran.
    Any Hadith contradicting Quran must be rejected.

    The Hadith quoted (one of which I have a problem) speaks towards Qadar (Pre-ordainment), a fundamental belief in Islam. It is a deep and fascinating subject. The question always arises (early) when discussing Qadar - 'how can there be free-will and Pre-ordainment?'. It must be reflected upon that free-will is also Pre-ordained.

    Qadar applies to "pre-creation" which we can't even properly express, since there was no "pre" "before" the creation of space and time. There was no "was" because there "was" no time.

    A Believer in The Quran must believe that we are held accountable for our actions - essentially we "reap what we sow" - with the merciful component of our good deeds being multiplied, as quoted above.
     
  10. RogerBao

    RogerBao New Member

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    Hmm, interestingly ,I think the following verses clearly implies predestination.

    Say: ‘Nothing will happen to us except what Allah has decreed for us: He is our protector’: and on Allah let the Believers put their trust.” (Qur'an 9:51)

    Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him (Qur'an 4:88)


    And the Sahih hadiths below supports the above verses.

    Narrated 'Ali: "We were accompanying a funeral procession in Baqi-I-Gharqad.The Prophet came to us and sat and we sat around him. He had a small stick in his hand then he bent his head and started scraping the ground with it. He then said, "There is none among you, and not a created soul, but has place either in Paradise or in Hell assigned for him and it is also determined for him whether he will be among the blessed or wretched." A man said, "O Allah's Apostle! Should we not depend on what has been written for us and leave the deeds as whoever amongst us is blessed will do the deeds of a blessed person and whoever amongst us will be wretched, will do the deeds of a wretched person?" The Prophet said, "The good deeds are made easy for the blessed, and bad deeds are made easy for the wretched." Then he recited the Verses:-- "As for him who gives (in charity) and is Allah-fearing And believes in the Best reward from Allah. " (92.5-6) Sahih al-Bukhari 1362 Book of Funerals

    Abu Hurairah reported the Messenger of Allah (May peace be upon him) as saying :
    Adam and Moses held a disputation. Moses said : Adam you are our father. You deprived us and caused us to come out from Paradise. Adam said : You are Moses Allah chose you for his speech and wrote the Torah for you with his hand. Do you blame me for doing a deed which Allah had decreed that I should do forty year before he created me? So Adam got the better of Moses in argument. Ahmad b. Salih said from 'Amr from Tawus who heard Abu Hurairah.
    Grade : Sahih (Al-Albani)
    Reference : Sunan Abi Dawud 4701 Book of Model Behavior of the Prophet (Kitab Al-Sunnah)
     
  11. Arif Ghamiq

    Arif Ghamiq Active Member

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    "There does not befall any disaster in the earth or in your selves (souls) unless it is written in a book before We bring it into existence; indeed that is easy for Allah.

    Lest you distress yourselves for what escapes you and be overjoyed over what He has granted you; And Allah does not love any arrogant boaster"
    (57:22-23)

    This is my favorite verses regarding Pre-ordainment, and such verses are just as much a part of The Quran as the verses telling us that we will be held accountable for our deeds.

    Should one who believes in Quran accept the verses about Qadar and reject the verses about being held to account?

    Or should a believer in Quran reject the verses about Qadar and accept the ones about accountability?

    Or is there a union of the two? I believe there is.

    If everything is Decreed, then the ability of choice is included in that Decree.

    As I alluded to earlier, I believe the question "how can there be free-will and Pre-ordainment?" is comparable to the question "where was Allah before He created everything?". The words "where" and "before" indicate place (space) and time, which are part of creation; These are ineffable realities that cannot be understood within the parameters of created existence.

    Free-will and Pre-ordainment, when viewed from the perspective of this worldly experience - within the illusory realms of space and time, are contradictory, but when viewed from the uncreated "realm" of the Amr (Command/Decree) they are not.

    This is not an easy task and full understanding of these realities, in this world, is probably not possible; And Allah knows best. But we should, as Allah tells us in Quran, reflect upon the creation of the heavens and the earth - which us Muslims do not do nearly enough when it comes to this and many other Religious and Spiritual issues.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2018
  12. Ahmad232

    Ahmad232 Member

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    Hi dreamytrident

    I read about half of your post and didn't recognise it at all as Islam that you was describing. I got the gist of what you were saying from a quick scan of your second half.

    The Prophet Muhammad (saw) infact frowned upon and discouraged reading the Torah and Bible. Quran doesn't say at all to refer to those scriptures either.

    There is no difference between Sufi and Sunni as both are basically the same with Sufi being the higher spiritual class of Sunni.

    Wahdat al wujud is interpreted in a non-idolatrous way in Sunni Islam, it basically means that only God and his actions exist as creation is God's action of having created, but it doesn't regard the object of creation (the universe etc ) as being divine.

    The non-Muslim 'sufis' have hijacked this term and put their own idolatrous interpretation to it

    The Torah and Bible were distorted before the advent of Islam so they were never protected anyway and there is no command on Muslims to try protect them

    The vast majority of Muslims (the Sunnis; sufis are part of Sunnis) are united on one Islam and that Islam consists of Quran and sunnah, not any borrowed teachings of other peoples

    So your post referred to a different religion I'm afraid, not Islam! ☺
     
  13. RogerBao

    RogerBao New Member

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    Of course when ability to choose is decreed, choosing the wrong is also decreed. Thats pre-ordainment too.

    Well friend, I can say just the same to convince myself about anything that doesn't make sense, not just about this issue. The verses we both quoted are clearly contradictory. Even to come to this point you have to reject all the related sahih hadiths including Bukhari. Thats sticky too.

    Quran claims itself to be a clear book. Yet even for the most basic aspect of faith/deen such as this, why is it so difficult?
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2018
  14. RogerBao

    RogerBao New Member

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    Not sure about that because the prophet even took oath on the Torah once.
    Doesn't that mean the Torah was not corrupted (at least during his lifetime)?

    A group of Jews came and invited the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) to Quff. So he visited them in their school. They said: Abul Qasim, one of our men has committed fornication with a woman; so pronounce judgment upon them. They placed a cushion for the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) who sat on it and said: Bring the Torah. It was then brought. He then withdrew the cushion from beneath him and placed the Torah on it saying: I believed in thee and in Him Who revealed thee. He then said: Bring me one who is learned among you. Then a young man was brought. The transmitter then mentioned the rest of the tradition of stoning similar to the one transmitted by Malik from Nafi'(No. 4431). Hasan (Al-Albani)
    Sunan Abi Dawud 4449 Book of Prescribed Punishments (Kitab Al-Hudud)
     
  15. Ahmad232

    Ahmad232 Member

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    Prophet (saw) just confimed the original Torah is from Allah, and the stoning verse was still in it.

    The Quran itself mentions that some rabbis have changed the words of the Torah with their own interpolations:

    “Do you (faithful believers) covet that they will belive in your religion in spite of the fact that a party of them (Jewish rabbis) used to hear the Word of Allaah (the Tawraat), then they used to change it knowingly after they understood it?” [al-Baqarah 2:75]

    Qutaadah said: “The phrase ‘then they used to change it knowingly after they understood it’ refers to the Jews, who used to hear the words of Allaah, then they altered it after they had understood what it meant.”

    Abu ‘Aaliyah said: “They took what Allaah had revealed in their Book describing Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and changed its meaning.” Ibn Zayd said: “The phrase ‘[they] used to hear the Word of Allaah (the Tawraat), then they used to change it’ refers to the Tawraat which Allaah revealed to them; they changed it, making what it permitted forbidden, and what was forbidden allowed, changing the truth to falsehood and falsehood to truth…” [Tafseer Ibn Katheer]

    https://islamqa.info/en/2001
     
  16. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    When we review the texts we have of ancient times, other than translations and updating to modern languages...we don't see the corruption that many like to claim.
     
  17. Arif Ghamiq

    Arif Ghamiq Active Member

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    I agree, a great deal of "corruption" comes from translation. Also much of the depth found in the older languages, such as Hebrew & Arabic, is lost in translation, which further encourages simplistic & superficial interpretations, thereby discouraging abstract thinking when it comes to Religion.
     
  18. Arif Ghamiq

    Arif Ghamiq Active Member

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    To me, it is very clear to me. The Quran (as with other texts) speaks on mundane matters as well as transcendental ones. It's not difficult, in that way, to me.

    This might sound strange to you, but I wish more Muslims were as analytical about this subject as you are - I think it would result is Spiritual Growth. And Allah knows best!
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2018
  19. Arif Ghamiq

    Arif Ghamiq Active Member

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    Well that looks off, wasn't trying to that - oh well it's all there ! Ha!!

    It's like my quote is in with Roger's - how did I do that?!?
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2018
  20. RogerBao

    RogerBao New Member

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    I find it strange Prophet Muhammad proclaimed"I believed in thee and in Him Who revealed thee." on a the corrupt physical copy of the Torah with him.
     
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