A modern IO religion

Discussion in 'Modern Religions' started by wil, Jan 11, 2017.

  1. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    20,831
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Let us say for a thought experiment we do a reboot..

    A.modern IO religion.

    Now if you can't participate, you don't have to...but the premise is..
    1. what should be included from your religion,
    2. what would you like tossed if you could,
    3. what would you include from other religions,
    4. what books (excerpts) would you include
    5. and as a prophet what would you add...
     
  2. Ahanu

    Ahanu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2007
    Messages:
    1,337
    Likes Received:
    152
    Perhaps you'd like to go first?
     
  3. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    20,831
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Begin with the end in mind I think...

    I'd like peace... I'd say if you raise a fist, or nuclear bomb in anger you already lost. But then we start to make caveats, sled protection, protection of others, the greater good we are gonna kill this guy, this group, this nation, because they are more evil than we are..

    I'd like peace... None of our current religions know how to do this....or do they? The Amish, the Quakers refusing violence, and then praying for and forgiving those that do violence against them?
     
  4. Ahanu

    Ahanu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2007
    Messages:
    1,337
    Likes Received:
    152
    Hi Wil,

    So . . . you're a pacifist no matter what the situation is? You know, there's a popular saying . . . "there is a sniper on every roof" . . . opposition no matter what you teach, but I guess the ultimate question then is how do you mitigate violent reactions from your followers to violent opposition? You praise the Amish and Quakers. What causes them - in your eyes - to refuse violence in contrast to other religious groups? Prayer and forgiveness? But don't many already teach that?

    Without further delay . . .

    4. Revelation by text would be recognized as outdated, because "revelation by text" requires interpretation. Who, among your followers, decides which interpretation is revelation? Hence I wouldn't include any texts. Written texts are poor ways to deliver information.

    2. I would toss away written scripture from all religions. Reason? See #4.

    5. I would use a different medium to convey my message to the masses. This message would be without speech, much like how Spock, in the movie Star Trek (2009), uses his telepathic powers to speechlessly aid Captain Kirk in experiencing what he experienced. And how would this message reach the masses? My brain would be connected to a neural net, which would in turn be connected to the internet. Others would instantly be able to experience my thoughts, feelings, and perceptions, because my message would go viral in a similar way a social network post goes viral. And to add icing on the cake, followers would be able to visualize my visions through a VR experience so real it's indistinguishable from the real world. This also works through the neural net. My every move would be recorded live, erasing all disputes about what I said or did in my past. Briefly, I would use technology to solve our spoken and written communication problems to give followers a direct experience unhindered by words.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2017
  5. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2004
    Messages:
    7,502
    Likes Received:
    147
    What? We don't have enough problems in the world with all the religions we already have we should add another?
     
  6. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    20,831
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Nope don't know that saying and I've been in the sites of half a.dozen snipers on the roof.
     
  7. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    20,831
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    In the past 35 years....yes.
     
  8. Craz

    Craz Active Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2013
    Messages:
    171
    Likes Received:
    53
    Here's an idea:
    1. Ban all existing religions.
    2. Make peoples' personal beliefs totally private, ie forbidden to talk about it. After all, the whole thing about a theistic belief system is to do with our relationship between our selves and God(s). Noone advertises about their private lives with their lovers, so why advertise about one's affair with the divine which is the supreme love affair.


    My second wife had a good tactic of when ever people asked her about her religion. She would say,
    1. I belong to my own Church.
    2. It is forbidden for me to discuss anything about it.
    3. She is the only member.
     
  9. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2004
    Messages:
    7,502
    Likes Received:
    147
    Not that I disagree with your wife, sounds like her position is not far from mine. However, religion is a useful discipline.

    Consider: would you think it wise to abolish all education and not ever send any children at all to school to learn? I think abolishing religion would be very much just like this.

    The difference in practice is that while you eventually graduate from school, preferably with an advanced degree...most people never get around to graduating from religion, let alone even applying themselves to any advanced degree. They are just there for the socializing, or so it seems to me.

    Given the choice between the worst case scenarios, I think its probably better folks languish in the socialization rather than be completely ignorant of the Divine. But I would stress that length of time spent inside a sanctuary does not imply any sense of understanding, understanding would make itself clearly evident in action.
     
  10. Craz

    Craz Active Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2013
    Messages:
    171
    Likes Received:
    53
     
  11. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    20,831
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    1st tenant.... It is appropriate to question...EVERYTHING...

    2nd tenant... It is valued to learn others beliefs, valued to learn math, science, and about the world around you.

    3rd tenant... Mistreating your fellow travelers, and environment is frowned upon. (That's it, no eternal damnation or excommunication...we just frown slightly)
     
  12. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2004
    Messages:
    7,502
    Likes Received:
    147
    Could I rephrase?

    Sure. I think it is better that people in general have a little understanding than to have none at all. The caveat to those who are inclined to think that the longer their butt warms a church pew that somehow they are "exalted" is an idea that needs to be seriously challenged. As I've said many times before and I will likely say many times again: It is not what you know, it is what you do with what you know.

    By which I mean, it doesn't matter which religion you practice, as long as you actually practice it and not give nominal lip service and do your own thing and think that because a pew somewhere has your indelible butt print that you've actually accomplished something. The building is nothing, I don't care if it is the grandest cathedral, mosque, temple or sanctuary ever built by the hands of men. What teaching takes place inside, and what evidence of that teaching *outside* of the building is what matters.
     
  13. Ahanu

    Ahanu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2007
    Messages:
    1,337
    Likes Received:
    152
    I strongly disagree with "if you raise a fist, then you have already lost" applies to all situations. It breaks down if a guy bursts through the door and wants to rape my sister. Just an extreme example. What unjust religion would passively allow that to happen? I hope it is not our modern IO religion.

    Strongly disagree. It is not always appropriate to question everything. Sometimes questions are not appropriate. Should a student question a teacher about his or her sex life with a lover? Of course not. We would say it is an inappropriate question. At least I hope we would.

    I strongly agree.

    Partially disagree here. Sometimes excommunication is needed. Some simply have malicious intentions.
     
  14. Ahanu

    Ahanu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2007
    Messages:
    1,337
    Likes Received:
    152
    In that case, let's ban atheism too. Any belief system that speculates about the beyond must be banned too.

    Perhaps. Here's what you could possibly include from Confucianism:

    "Tzu-Kung said, 'We can hear our Master's views on culture and its manifestations, but we cannot hear his views on human nature and the Way of Heaven."

    "Confucius said, 'I do not wish to say anything.' Tzu-kung said, 'If you do not say anything what can we little disciples ever learn to pass on to others?' Confucius said, 'Does Heaven say anything? The four seasons run their course and all things are produced. Does Heaven say anything?'"
     
  15. Craz

    Craz Active Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2013
    Messages:
    171
    Likes Received:
    53
    Good point.
    Any belief system that speculates about the beyond and is organised should be banned. Theistic or not.
     
  16. Namaste Jesus

    Namaste Jesus Praise the Lord and Enjoy the Chai

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2014
    Messages:
    3,030
    Likes Received:
    635
    Personally, I'd never ask a teacher about their sex life. I mean, I wouldn't want to find out their's is better than mine!:D

    Seriously though. While I can see the need to ask for clarification now and then, where religion is concerned, questioning absolutely everything tends to negates the idea of faith.
     
  17. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    20,831
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Lol...
    We are talking about religion here....question everything... You make a statement, I ask you to back it up. If the teacher makes a reference to his or her sexlife in relation to religion...is that a young follower should so x, y or z in order to gain spirituality.. YES, QUESTION IT!!!! Glad you touched on the issue of power and influence a teacher, preacher, guru can have over its student without questioning everything...and if you don't get a satisfactory answer ask more people!!
    I love the nuclear option. I said i have been a pacifist for decades, this true, I have not been in any situation where calmer minds have not been coerced to prevail via discussion...

    I personally do not play these what if things... I suppose we will have to see but I wouldn't wish that situation on anybody and find it hilarious folks feel the need to go there.
     
  18. Ahanu

    Ahanu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2007
    Messages:
    1,337
    Likes Received:
    152
    Thought experiments are what-if scenarios. Mary the colorblind neuroscientist is a what-if scenario, a famous thought experiment. But you don't do what-if scenarios, you do thought experiments. Color me >>>>>:confused::confused::confused:. The two terms appear nearly synonymous. Yeah, I'm just trying to prevail in this discussion. It's not like I'm asking you to be clear in your writing. :rolleyes: Or perhaps my thinking is unclear, leaving me confused about these two terms.

    See above.

    The real world is quite messy. I thought we were going to imagine a modern IO religion that existed in the real world. I simply asked if you would refuse to fight in all situations. You responded yes. In my opinion, I believe such a view would make our modern IO religion unjust. Behind my question is a deeper one: Is our modern IO religion just or unjust? When to fight back, when not to fight back? Seems like a legitimate discussion, especially since we're talking about peace and violence. I see nothing funny about it.

    Okay.

    See my response to NJ below for what I think about questioning everything in religion.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2017
  19. Ahanu

    Ahanu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2007
    Messages:
    1,337
    Likes Received:
    152
    o_O

    Thanks for sharing. It is something to think about. For me, in terms of religion I was thinking about how absurdity sometimes arises from questioning everything. One Baha'i scholar notes what he once witnessed in his home country in the following words:

    "Some of its scholars were wrangling over whether the urine of the Imam (they meant one of the Twelve Imams) was ritually pure, or, like other urine, unclean. I have no idea where they found the urine of their Imam, such that it posed a problem for them."

    Such discussions remind me of when somebody once asked me about Jesus' human waste: Is it God or not? Questioning everything sometimes leads to fruitless discussions. That is one reason why I would say questioning everything should not be acceptable in the modern IO religion. Perhaps Wil can rephrase his first tenant.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2017
  20. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    20,831
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    If scholars, if the learned are contemplating poop and pee, while I find it hilarious, I also find it useful, as evidently did they.

    I don't play the what if scenarios of then doomsdayers.... What if it was your child on a train track vs all the folks on the train?

    I say question everything...if that is the crap (or poop, or pee) that you feel worthy to question.... Have at it. I don't have to question or find answers to your riddles, only my own.
     
  21. Ahanu

    Ahanu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2007
    Messages:
    1,337
    Likes Received:
    152
    It is far-fetched, like my reply to number 5 above. A what-if rape scenario is far more plausible. Fact: in the United States, Native American women have the highest rates of rape in the country.

    Okay.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2017

Share This Page