Absolute-ness means...

Discussion in 'Eastern Religions and Philosophies' started by bhaktajan, Feb 16, 2017.

  1. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2009
    Messages:
    1,594
    Likes Received:
    10
    Thanks for the replies. Thomas indeed highlighted many of academic definitions and added his insights too...in reply to:
    What is absolute? What is not absolute?

    I'd know I spelled out a litany of items in the OP...please consider this just my placing my cards on the table.

    I'd like to think of how those that propose "THERE IS NOTHING THAT IS ABSOLUTE" and then wonder how they view their mundane existence as being "NOTHING ABSOLUTE".

    This axiom of "THERE IS NOTHING THAT IS ABSOLUTE" is curious to me in regards to the topic of Anti-social behavior. Self-centered Anti-social behavior ... and especially how the contrary values of the pathos of Hard-work coupled with Entitlement expectations.

    IE Imo: an American youth resisting police orders .... Why? Imo the youth wrongly conflates their subjective whim and the reality of mandated enforcements.

    I guess it boils down to:
    subjective whims vs absolute duties.
     
  2. Samana Johann

    Samana Johann (Not a member, just a guest)

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2017
    Messages:
    124
    Likes Received:
    17
    Are your sure? Maybe one takes a look on the OP and actually it was a reaction on this:

    "It is probably the case that all traditions account for this, more or less, in their teachings."

    And there is no dispute on the nature of tradition.

    Maybe its good to stay on topic. So if there is in this regard something open, or not really "absolute", it is well placed, my person guesses.

    The link gives a hint of the only absolutness, the deathless, Nibbana. Thats all.

    As for the OP, it neither has the object of absoluteness nor does it even show a way to better conditions, but simple presents some ineffective ideas and ritual practices of certain teachers.

    As for the OP and its intention, let my person leave the The Brahma Invitation here behind. one can take it or let it be, like it was, for a long long time.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2017
  3. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2009
    Messages:
    1,594
    Likes Received:
    10
    There are those that sacrifice.
    There are those that do not sacrifice.
    Those that do not sacrifice afford themselves of other's sacrifices.
    Those that do sacrifice afford all services to non-sacrificers.
    Non-sacrificers earn everything from Those that do sacrifice.
    The farmer should ask more for his sacrifice.
     
  4. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2009
    Messages:
    1,594
    Likes Received:
    10
     
  5. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    20,060
    Likes Received:
    1,118
    is working and earning a living then spending the money to buy things that others participate in creating that earn money for their efforts sacrifice all the way down...and up?
     
  6. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2009
    Messages:
    1,594
    Likes Received:
    10
    I've said, in the past:
    If you are in the right place [where you are supposed to be],
    at the right time [when you are supposed to be present],
    There is no need to fear. Carry on.
     
  7. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2009
    Messages:
    1,594
    Likes Received:
    10
    "Prescribed Duty":
    It is far better to discharge one’s prescribed duties, even though faultily, than another’s duties perfectly. Destruction in the course of performing one’s own duty is better than engaging in another’s duties, for to follow another’s path is dangerous. (Bg 3:35)

    Whether material or spiritual, one should stick to his prescribed duties even up to death, rather than imitate another’s prescribed duties.
    Everyone has to cleanse his heart by a gradual process, not abruptly.
    A living entity, as part and parcel of the Supreme, is originally spiritual, pure, and free from all material contaminations. Therefore, by nature he is not subject to the sins of the material world. But when he is in contact with the material nature, he acts in many sinful ways without hesitation, and sometimes even against his will.

    When a living entity comes in contact with the material creation, his eternal love for the Personality of Godhead is transformed into lust, in association with the mode of passion. Or, in other words, the sense of love of God becomes transformed into lust, as milk in contact with sour tamarind is transformed into yogurt. Then again, when lust is unsatisfied, it turns into wrath; wrath is transformed into illusion, and illusion continues the material existence.

    Instead of becoming a pseudo transcendentalist for the sake of wanton living and sense enjoyment, it is far better to remain in one’s own business and execute the purpose of life, which is to get free from material bondage and enter into the kingdom of God.

    A householder can progress spiritually, by regulated service. For self-realization, one can live a controlled life and continue carrying out his business without attachment, and in that way make progress. A sincere person who follows this method is far better situated than the false pretender who adopts show-bottle spiritualism to cheat the innocent public. A sincere sweeper in the street is far better than the charlatan meditator who meditates only for the sake of making a living.
     
  8. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2009
    Messages:
    1,594
    Likes Received:
    10
    For Thomas:

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    bhaktajan said:
    ... there is the Concept of Absolute. Absolute reality exists.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    Indeed, but can we comprehend this Absolute?

    If one accepts given traditional cosmologies, the answer is no, in as much as that which is absolute is 'above' and 'beyond' all — it transcends everything — it is without form, it is unknowable (in the common sense) because it cannot be defined or categorised in anything other than abstract terms. There is nothing to 'know' bcause there is no object of knowledge (which would immediately set up the dichotomy of 'this and that').

    So the real 'Absolute' exists byond all manifestation, be that 'concrete' matter or concepts in mind.

    I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I
    Is Absolute knowable?


    Is not each human discovery a discovery of an absolute? Before fire and the wheel existed, it existed innate-ly, intrinsically laying inert, but when it was manifested, it demonstrated an absolute. The design of the wheel [before its ‘discovery’] laid dormant, like ‘the un-carved block’ has within it myriads of alternate forms. But the mathematical laws of physics account for and are inseparable from it ‘absolute’ properties. Of course, it can be said: When speaking of “Absolutes” we are actually referring to “Absolute Properties”.
    Before presuming this is some sort of sublime musing, I ask you to admit how well we are familiar with the diametrical opposite of “Absolute Properties” ---we are familiar with Non-absolute(s) … ad infinitum.


    The Traditional “scriptures” of the world are the three religious scriptural books:
    1. the Koran
    2. the Judeo-Christian Bible
    3. the Vedic Literatures
    All other groups and sects are off-shoots of the above. I leave out here the non-yoga-principled social blacksheeps and aboriginals pathos.

    To avoid the abstractions of mundane life that have gone by in successive waves of generations since time immemorial, a plenary Avatar of Godhead’s personage, has periodically advented many times, during the passing Yugas and Kalpas, descending upon Humanity to bestow lost knowledge of “behavioral rules”. Rules meant to advance the soul. BUT WAIT! The soul is spirit, spirit is pure … but we spirit souls are covered with a material body…and our quagmire is We think we are our material body.

    We absolutely have no where else to moor our soul. Our Soul is an absolute individual tiny address. The address where each soul can find themselves is the point in space that each soul occupies. A soul’s individuality is the point in space that is witnessing from a unique definite point in space, albeit, a mobile POV. The soul cannot vacate their own individual point in space.

    Abstractions allude to concrete pragmatic entities. The soul is a living entity. Everything else is “In-animate” matter [earth, water fire, air, et al elements.

    The Latin word for soul is “anima”, hence the word, ‘animation’. For it is written in the Spiritual Books of Asia, “The soul provides conscious animation to the material body, and when the soul leaves the body, the body becomes in-animate, ergo dead”.

    Asking the ultimate authority about the truth of a matter that they are master of is the best source of information, ie: “Mummy, who is my real daddy”?

    So intelligence is based on the ability to descriminate ie: Butter verses Ice Cream, Petrol verses Diesel, Cod verses Salmon, Wine verses Beer, Soup-spoon verses teaspoon. The “things appear closure than they really are” negotiating skills are always brought to task in life, and any mis-judgement can send one in the absolutely wrong direction.

    The 'Absolute' is known to be called “Un-manifested” ---this term is used during jnani’s analysis of the material elements. The term “Un-manifested” is used as a direct counter-distinction to the constitutional state of existence of the material elements themselves--- to wit, ‘the material cosmic manifestation’.
    1. Material existence [temporal in-animate elements] is the manifested ‘stuff’.
    2. Spiritual existence [eternal conscious POV’s] are the un-manifested ‘stuff’.

    It is written in the Spiritual Books of Asia, that are abode of Godhead is 100% made of item# 2: the abode of Godhead is 100% Spiritual, iow, un-manifested. Spiritual energy that emanates from Godhead’s effulgence expands to provide all souls a field to enact serviceable work ---but to what end? Ananda. Bliss, Pleasure, self-satisfaction, pleasure-in-the-soul [Sans, atma-rama]. Originally the Souls were in the un-manifested abodes ---which lay beyond the onion-like coverings of the cosmos, outside the dark enclosure of the manifest stars and celestial heavens, where time does not exist.

    The spiritual abodes are 100% composed, in all facets, in each spark and speck, all things spiritual are known to be “eternal, conscious and blissful” [Sans. Sat-chit-ananda] Then what? Spiritual exchanges that are pursuant to service to Godhead. Since Godhead’s personage is the originating reservoir of all personal traits, we souls are plenary parts and parcels of the “Original Person”. So in our original state [Sans. sva-rupa] of spiritual existence in service to Godhead [or indirectly, in service to His servant] the original mystic purpose of life was to seek out the pastimes of Godhead and to be amongst His entourage. For we here in the material world shadow this pastime in all stratums of life. Birth after birth it is preferable to be top-dog, king of the pride, top of the heap, being one of the beautiful jet-set people. So in Heaven, the Lord is witnessed repeatedly similar to how a day laborer attends to chores, or a caterer plans a party. All in an eternal state of Union with the Personage of Godhead.

    Yoga is ultimately, for re-linking the soul to ‘sva-rupa’ [the souls’ original constitutional position as a resident of the Transcendent abode of heaven] and returning back to Godhead. This is what is written in Spiritual Books of Asia [see the book: bhagavat-purana]
    I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I

    Well 'self-motivated' is a matter of degree. It may not contradict the ultimate goal of the Absolute.

    I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I
    All of Jesus’s disciples had been working men. The clergy are expected to renounce the world, but all others are meant to pursue household life and to keep the commandments and “carry on”.
    I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    bhaktajan said:

    It is said in Bhagavad-gita that after many, many lives of philosophical research the wise man ultimately comes to the point of knowing that Supreme Personality of Godhead, is everything, and therefore he surrenders unto Him. Such serious students in philosophical research are rare because they are very great souls.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    In the Christian Tradition it is held that union with the Absolute is available in all places, at all times, to all peoples, and requires nothing more than 'a change of heart' (metanoia). It is not limited to the philosophically-inclined, or rather 'very great souls' need not be philosophers.

    I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I
    We are limited in all regards to a temporal transient life, and the lessons of life + the lessons of repeated lifetime after lifetime since time immemorial whilst each time in pursuit of self-preservation is the status quo of all souls ---except those that seek the direct service of none-other-than the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

    Let me note what I refer to and why I refer to the phrase: “Supreme Personality of Godhead”. This term summerises definitively the concept of God as:

    1] a person, and

    2] denotes the creation as the One singular Godhead’s plenary expansions as a field of activities for all souls to sojourn.

    If we seek union with Elvis Presley, or a departed love one and it was possible [by some supposed mystic method] then when we where re-united, the first thing to do would be to verify the Person. Oh, now I recognise you!

    If God is His own person, then His personality is out there to be found out. But Elvis Presley, or a departed love one’s personality are known to us and we’d know how to recognise him before we might be re-united.

    So you cannot expect to meet and recognise a place, person or thing unless you were introduced and taught the protocol and know what your place and rank is. How can you ask for a autograph of someone that you don’t know how to recognise nor where to be found?

    There are three Scriptures of the world. Each contains Histories of Kings, peoples, philosophers and sages and saints and avatars [incarnations of Godhead] in different epochs of history, teaching Lessons in accord to time, place and mental/Spiritual maturity of peoples apropos to the masses desires.
    I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    bhaktajan said:

    and unless one reaches the point of understanding the Personality of Godhead by his mental speculation, all his research work is said to be simply a labor of love...
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    I would say love transcends mental speculation — some understand God perfectly but would be dismissed as 'simple' or 'naive' and declare 'philosophy' is beyond them.

    I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I
    Love is a trait that originates out of a Godhead that is a distinct, unique, definitive, absolute entity. Love is not associated with a cloud-like nebulous glowing orb.

    Yes, as you say, the jnani philosopher famously assert that study of the phenomena of the metaphysical cosmic construction is real Vedic yoga tapasya [penance]. But they are not quoting what the compiler of the Vedas said. Vedavyasa, the Literary Incarnation of Godhead, compiled the aural Vedas into writing 5000 years ago. Without his work, there would be no Sanskrit scrptures. Well yes there was Valmiki etc before him, but that was much much much earlier, two previous yugas earlier.

    There are three progressive stages of yoga education:
    karma-yoga, actions pursuant to yoga’s goals.

    Jnana-yoga, intellectual study pursuant to yoga’s goals.

    Bhakti-yoga, devotional vocation pursuant to yoga’s goals.

    It is known as the yoga ladder.

    A dedicated jnani will pursue his studies in a devoted manner.

    So what is wrong with the jnani? Nothing, let ‘em take their time.
    I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I


    While the 'philosopher' tends to regard the philosophers' way as the way, this is itself relative to the individual, and relative to world matters. That someone cannot speak with erudition about the nature of the Godhead does not mean they do not know that nature in a far more 'real' way that someone who can expound on the subject at great length.

    I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I
    Speech is silver, but silence is golden. But death is a thief. It is the moment of death that must be made to walk by your side, only a vale’s breath away. Why? So that at death, the mind has been trained as to what to remember upon passing.


    At the time of death, this is what determines where the soul will take up residence next:

    one’s Last thought,

    one’s lifelong cumulative merit [aka past works (accrued good/bad karma)],

    one’s Last and/or lifelong cumulative desire.

    The famous example is often quoted here, that if a man thinks of a woman at the time of death, his soul will be transferred to be conceived and born as a female.

    Similarly, another example that is often quoted here, is when a prey animal is caught by a larger animal of prey, to be eaten, the smaller prey animal’s last thoughts are of the superior position of the aggressor animal … thus prompting the lesser beast to pine for the benefits of such a position. So too, when a whale is harpooned or a fish is hooked and it is made to consider the stratum of life that is reaching down to grab them … their animal mind will have last thoughts … thoughts of higher stratums.

    So beware that, at time of death, one has the Lord’s name vibrating on his tongue and ringing in his ears ---least one have thoughts of lower stratums.
    I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I


    Speech is silver, but silence is golden.

    There is a tendency in the West for 'the philosopher' or 'the esoterist' to assume an unconscious elitism; to assume the way of the gnostic or the jnani is somehow better that the way of the bhakta, or that the bhakta's realisation will only be partial, whereas the jnani will be more. It's a fallacy.

    I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I
    You are correct inre the elitism.


    Bhagavad-gita 14.6

    TRANSLATION
    In regards to the “three modes-of-material energy”, the mode of goodness [sattva-guna], being purer than the others [rajas-guna and tamas-guna], is illuminating, and it frees one from all sinful reactions. Those situated in that mode become conditioned by a sense of happiness and knowledge.


    PURPORT
    The living entities conditioned by material nature are of various types. One is happy, another is very active, and another is helpless. All these types of psychological manifestations are causes of the entities’ conditioned status in nature. How they are differently conditioned is explained in this section of Bhagavad-gita. The mode of goodness is first considered. The effect of developing the mode of goodness in the material world is that one becomes wiser than those otherwise conditioned. A man in the mode of goodness is not so much affected by material miseries, and he has a sense of advancement in material knowledge. The representative type is the brahmana class of men, who is supposed to be situated in the mode of goodness. This sense of happiness is due to understanding that, in the mode of goodness, one is more or less free from sinful reactions. Actually, in the Vedic literature it is said that the mode of goodness means greater knowledge and a greater sense of happiness.


    The difficulty here is that when a living entity is situated in the mode of goodness he becomes conditioned to feel that he is advanced in knowledge and is better than others. In this way he becomes conditioned. The best examples are the scientist and the philosopher. Each is very proud of his knowledge, and because they generally improve their living conditions, they feel a sort of material happiness. This sense of advanced happiness in conditioned life makes them bound by the mode of goodness of material nature. As such, they are attracted toward working in the mode of goodness, and, as long as they have an attraction for working in that way, they have to take some type of body in the modes of nature. Thus there is no likelihood of liberation, or of being transferred to the spiritual world. Repeatedly one may become a philosopher, a scientist or a poet, and repeatedly become entangled in the same disadvantages of birth and death. But, due to the illusion of the material energy, one thinks that that sort of life is pleasant.

    But the remainder of the statement above is the sloganeering from the “Impersonal schools of Hinduism”.

    There are two groups of yogic transcendentalist:
    1. Impersonal schools of Hinduism (monist ie: Advaita, and by extention, the Buddhist schools, both of which ascribe a nirvana like merging of the Soul into a static state of non-existence)
    2. Personal schools of Hinduism (Vaishnava, that ascribe to Godhead’s Transcendental existence).
    Both schools practice Brahminical yoga principles, seeking union with the soul and rising above the three-modes of natures and rising above the material borne Good and Bad manifestations of Karma, and escape from the cycle of repeated births and death [Sans. samsara]
    I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I


    The question is, if the Absolute transcends all forms, all modes of being, all manner of expression, all mental determinations ... then the Absolute will transcend 'the way of knowledge', in that knowledge will reach its limit, it will end up like a searchlight into a void.

    I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I
    The “Supreme Personality of Godhead” is the source of material matter & energy and more valuably, ” is the source of interpersonal qualities and expressions of Love and Love’s associated purposes.

    It is said that “Supreme Personality of Godhead” engages in pastimes to search out the multiplicity of His own unlimited majesty. The lord is engaged in loving pastimes with His own entourage, enthralling all while seeking out the extent of His own omnipotency. This is how God’s spend His Eternity. Giving pleasure to his devotees and fighting adharma in His Avatar incarnations.

    There are known to be 5 main interpersonal moods [Sans rasas, aka mellows] that a souls engages in reciprocal pastimes with Godhead:
    1. neutrality [santa-rasa]
    2. Servant-hood
    3. franternal
    4. parental
    5. fidelity
    I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I

    It is probably the case that all traditions account for this, more or less, in their teachings.
    Thomas,Mar 30, 2017

    I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I
    It is written that there are three modes for all things, including scriptures and even cultures. This is to accommodate the learning level & desires and propensity of each seeker.

    There are scriptures in the mode of Goodness, Passion and darkness.

    My Note about what are the modes-of-nature: In Taoism, there is the famous concept of Ying and Yang. But in the Bhagavad-gita, there is the equivalent, BUT it’s three-fold [Sans. Tri-gunas].
    I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I
     
  9. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2004
    Messages:
    7,379
    Likes Received:
    130
    Fashionably late to the party, I hope I can play too?

    Absolute:
    adjective: absolute
    1. not qualified or diminished in any way; total.

      synonyms: complete, total, utter, out-and-out, outright, entire, perfect, pure, decided; More
      thorough, thoroughgoing, undivided, unqualified, unadulterated, unalloyed, unmodified, unreserved, downright, undiluted, consummate, unmitigated, sheer, arrant, rank, dyed-in-the-wool

    2. viewed or existing independently and not in relation to other things; not relative or comparative.

      synonyms: universal, fixed, independent, nonrelative, nonvariable, absolutist
    noun: absolute; plural noun: absolutes
    1. Philosophy:
      a value or principle that is regarded as universally valid or that may be viewed without relation to other things.
    OK, but are we discussing the concept of "absolute," or the nature of "reality?"

    The concept can be used across such a wide spectrum of meanings, and can be cleverly used to cross reference, causing confusion either intentional or not, that can make discussion difficult.

    The nature of reality, in my view, largely speaks for itself...though in a language humans are not intimately familiar with.

    This enters the realm of "wide spectrum of meaning" and "causing confusion."

    "Absolute Truths" must be considered by a truthful philosopher to himself if no other, as hopeful delusions.

    The absolute truth is, I must draw my next breath, or I will die. Absolute Truths are those presented by sages of all religious traditions as meaningful paths that have some supernatural reward promised for obedience. Two *entirely* different concepts, and both equally valid, and easily confused...intentionally or not.

    I think I see already this discussion is challenging by, among other things, jargon which is easily used to obfuscate. Now, if this had been written to an Indian audience who was already familiar with the terminology, perhaps the thoughts conveyed would travel better. And I must admit that I came in from an outside angle to a conversation I was not directly invited to. However, the nature of the conversation implies, to me, an acceptance of the English language and a knowledgeable writer...so conveying the meaning with jargon in some effort to sound meaningful (to be polite) seems to me bordering on disingenuous. I am reserving such criticism because I am coming from an outside angle, but I never fail to notice this tendency among those who present on this subject...as though the jargon is mandatory to convey the underlying meaning. And if you don't know the jargon already, you are simply not part of the "in-crowd." It creates an attitude of cliquish, clannish elitism...as though you hold TRUTH and no one else does...which in my view is simply not true.

    OK, but then Jesus is also an Absolute Truth. Siddhārtha Gautama Buddha is also an Absolute Truth. Moses is an Absolute Truth. All of these are true by the very same usage of the term "Absolute Truth" that you are using here. And the analogy can be taken *much* further....

    OK, but I still contend that multiple lives are not necessary, indeed the concept that is taught serves only the ruling elite...the under classes are confined from the moment of birth to the caste of their state of existence...there is no hope for elevation because the teachings do not re-incarnate in the next existence. That is a VERY deterministic view, one I don't buy into. I have the opportunity, even the obligation, to go directly to the Source of my own volition.

    Let me be clear, as this seems in one form or other to be a stumbling block among deep and heartfelt discussions with fervent and well studied seekers...Sages and teachers have their roles to play in teaching laypersons and students by any other name the basics. We all must start somewhere. I think a great deal of confusion among all major faiths, perhaps all faiths period, is getting so caught up in the minutiae of the teachings, what "i's" are dotted and what "t's" are crossed, and what vowel points and inflection and grammar are used....instead of seeing the lessons for what they are and APPLYING them in our lives!

    If I were to posit an Absolute Truth, first I would posit that there is a Divine Presence / Creator / Source / Well Spring from which all came. I cannot describe the Source, but I think most major religions have anthropomorphed an image in their own likeness of the Source. Which is why we end up with a Huge Human floating around on a cloud, hurling thunderbolts at whomever displeases Him / Her. I don't think like that at all, and haven't for many years, since before ever coming to this site. But mine is a concept not easily received...students must build upon the familiar, but at some point, as the Buddhists teach, you must let go of the raft after you reach the other side.

    I am not familiar with your path, and Krishna...but it seems to me, by the little I see here already, that your beliefs will take you essentially to the same place other faiths wish to take you to. The root core of most world faiths is significantly the same, the differences are in the details. Humans get so caught up in the details, they lose sight of the big picture.

    You can know your Lord by whatever intellectual pursuit you choose....if you do not apply the message and the lessons to your daily life, that knowledge is meaningless. "Lord, Lord...why have you forsaken me? Because you did not do the things I asked of you to do."

    I may continue more, I don't know. I will say this before I go for now. What you know is irrelevant if what you know is not put into action. It is not what you know that helps you return to the Source, it is what you do with what you know that helps you return to the Source. THAT....is Absolute.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017
  10. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2009
    Messages:
    1,594
    Likes Received:
    10
    Hey Jay!
    I do hope to reply properly to your points above.

    just a quick added word here...

    Let's start with the most most rudimentary Absolute...that we can think of as the most definitive examples to name...

    I want to mention, "Void". I state that there exists an "Absolute Void". [Rsvp]
    and
    I will say, "Persona". I state that there exists an "Absolute Persona". [Rsvp]
    and
    I might say, "Physics". I state that Physics is an "Absolute". [though, I expect I am familiar with the argument against this] [Rsvp]
    and lastly,
    I will say, "Recipes". I state that any given Recipe is an "Absolute". [Rsvp]

    Répondez s'il vous plaît
     
  11. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2004
    Messages:
    7,379
    Likes Received:
    130
    Backatcha, Bee!

    OK, but are we discussing the concept of "absolute," or the nature of "reality?"

    The two subjects are *not* implicitly or explicitly the same.

    Words are not the thing they represent. Language has limitations. Suggesting that *any* of these represents the whole (even a significant portion) of the total of reality is misleading. For example...an Absolute Recipe would have to be adjusted for elevation above sea level...which means in the absolute sense, that there is no such thing as an Absolute Recipe.

    While I do believe reality has certain boundaries within which it cannot escape and outside of which it cannot operate (properly), within those bounds reality is an organic and dynamic (here words fail me completely) "entity" (no personality implied) that fluctuates widely (from our vantage) across its working parameters. This is one reason we struggle to explain "evolution," for example. We know some process exists, but we don't fully understand the process. Religion is much the same...they "all" (qualified here) point in the same general direction, but they cannot fully explain the process. Stated another way, you are using Newtonian methodology...the basis of your explanation is that the universe (reality) is static and unchanging (for our purposes, it is like putting our solar system at the center of the universe). With Quantum Mechanics, we've moved so far beyond Newton that, while nice and generally applicable in the "local" setting, it is untruthful to believe every setting uses the same parameters...like adjusting a recipe for altitude. Time is not constant. Gravity is not constant. There is no reason to expect all of the other components of 4 or even 5 dimensional space should be constant...indeed, just having those two biggies (Time and Gravity) being variable by default means "local" *will* vary. Therefore Absolute Reality is not absolute, except in the immediate human-centric perception of the localized part of it.

    Your arguments are trying to use human-centric constructs to validate your views of the IS (reality), but all human-centric constructs will fall short, it is the nature of the creature. We don't know as much as we delude ourselves into believing we do. This is not a unique situation...go back a hundred, two hundred, a thousand years...and humans had reality all figured out then too! A hundred years from now, two hundred, a thousand...probably people will still talk as though they have the universe all figured out, but what they will believe then will be substantially different from what we believe today. And as we know, talk is cheap... ;)
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2017
  12. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2004
    Messages:
    7,379
    Likes Received:
    130
    Name one. I can think of *no* void that is not a part of something larger, so by definition ( complete, total, utter, out-and-out, outright, entire, etc) any existence that includes "something" by default means there can be no "Absolute Void." The verbiage is a misnomer. Even the vacuum of space, or void if you prefer, is punctuated by galaxies. Since the universe is the greatest, and until proven otherwise only absolute we can know, and many "somethings" exist in it, there can be no Absolute Void. The final proof is that you exist...if there were an "Absolute" void, you would not exist.

    In the sense of each and every individual that ever lived, I can see someone saying this. If you mean a "G-d / Demi-god / Messiah or some other *elevated* master / leader, I would vehemently disagree. So a great deal depends on what you mean using the word "Persona."

    Already discussed above.

    In the event you do not like my explanation above, may I offer this link on cooking at high elevation:

    https://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/porta...igh-altitude-cooking-and-food-safety/ct_index

    Which de facto and de jure shows that an Absolute Recipe is not absolute. :)

    Be sure to answer my question.... ;)
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2017
  13. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2009
    Messages:
    1,594
    Likes Received:
    10
    Name one. I can think of *no* void that is not a part of something larger,

    The Void is the empty space that the cosmos occupies.
    The Void is the field behind all activity.
    The Void is the Emptiness ... absolute pure zero Emptiness.

    No?
     
  14. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2009
    Messages:
    1,594
    Likes Received:
    10
    Persona = possessing:
    1 beauty
    2 intelligence
    3 reputation
    4 prowess
    5 opulence
    6 renunciation

    Now widdle-down what possesses these innate characteristics versus what does NOT possess them.
    Rocks don't have these characteristics. Only the "Beholder" can perceive rocks.

    The beholder of the above traits of Persona can be said to have a personality of their own.

    Doesn't every living creature have some degree of personality? [Yes, as the outside "Beholder" perceives it] ---we shan't interview the sub-human [below the human stratum, aka, bestial] creatures to speak for themselves, but we do appreciate their individual personality. In Spanish the word for "Pet" is Mascot.

    Humans rank the personalities of sub-creatures [beasts] as being very dull-headed compared to us Human bi-peds.

    What I am citing in the OP is how "Persona" is the mystic force that causes the creation ---and, by extension, Our small personalities are a reflection of the mysterious physics of creation. The Universe is designed for a menagerie of creatures to exercise their free passage to anywhere.

    Behind all the activities of physics and geology and dreams of heavenly delights ... there is one common-denominator called Persona.

    We are familiar with numerous temporal and fleeting personalities ... such personalities have come and gone ... like flowers in an ancient field.
    What is absolute is that there is a field and that flowers are born and pass ---and that is an Absolute.

    Beyond what is NOT-absolute is the absolute laws that allow for the "Thousand things to rise and fall" ---this construct is an Absolute.
     
  15. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2004
    Messages:
    7,379
    Likes Received:
    130
    No. You make a contradictory statement, what is commonly called an oxymoron...you know; Jumbo Shrimp, Deafening Silence, Seriously Funny...empty space that the cosmos occupies. If something occupys it...it is not empty. To be void, it must be empty - to be "Absolute Void," it must by definition be Absolutely Empty. Since you exist, that is not possible...

    [​IMG]

    What void? Space is loaded with "stuff."

    And by the way, I notice you still have not answered my one and only question, even though I have asked nicely twice and answered your questions. I think I have my answer, but until you deem my submissions worthy enough to answer the one, very simple question, straightforward with no word games or mind trips...I have no reason to continue our conversation.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2017
  16. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2004
    Messages:
    7,379
    Likes Received:
    130
    Until you deem my one meager question suitable for reply, I leave you with this:

    "The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane." -Nikola Tesla
     
  17. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2009
    Messages:
    1,594
    Likes Received:
    10
    Please note that the CAPITALISED TEXT is used by me just for “differentiation” amongst all the other text below, Bhaktajan.


    WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

    WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW


    bhaktajan said:
    There is the subjective POV


    and there is the objective POV.


    juantoo3 said:

    Indeed, and the very nature of reality and our place within, we are *all* hamstrung by our subjective views, which can only glimpse at a tiny fraction of the objective reality...certainly not enough to claim we have knowledge of how the IS operates.

    I AGREE. WE KNOW WHAT WE DO, VIA “THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD”


    WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

    WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW


    bhaktajan said:

    The objective world is beyond comprehension until we come in contact with it via "instruments of the senses".

    juantoo3 said:
    I would say the objective world (universe) is beyond comprehension because of the limitations of our senses. One cannot use a yardstick to measure voltage, or use radar to measure love. Even when we attempt to measure attributes of the IS, we often confuse the finger for the moon it is pointed at.

    I AGREE. WE KNOW WHAT WE DO, VIA “HONEST BROKER RULES”WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

    WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

    bhaktajan said:

    **He was lucky man, he was!**

    Although **Luck** is actually the term here for Karma-pay-back-of-the good-sort ---[subjectively born objective acts with favorable results].

    We are born in the darkest ignorance.


    juantoo3 said:
    I believe we are all born in ignorance, but only once.

    I AGREE. BUT DIS-AGREE. DUE TO “RULES OF DUALITY” WHAT IS BORN WAS ONCE DEAD, AND VISE-VERSA.

    YOU DO REALISE THAT THE NOTION THAT “ONLY ONCE BORN AND DEAD FOREVER” BELITTLES ALL THE HOURS, DAYS AND HOURS OF SILENT MEDITATION DONE BY ALL BUDDHISTS?

    NIRVANA MEANS ESCAPING FROM “SAMSARA”, FROM BEING BORN AGAIN WHEN DEATH COMES.


    WE HAVE A CHANCE “NOW IN THE HUMAN FORM OF LIFE” TO SEEK OUT TRANSCENDING OUR EXISTENCE … OR ELSE, WE ARE TOSSED AROUND BY RADOM WHIMS OF KARMIC INTER-ACTIONS…LEADING TO YET ANOTHER BIRTH TO “CHEW-THE-CUD”.


    WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

    WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

    bhaktajan said:

    The rule of thumb for gaining knowledge begins thus, to ask the question:
    Q. "How do you know who yor real father is"?
    A. "Ask your mother".


    juantoo3 said:
    The Earth is my mother, the Sky is my Father

    THIS IS A SUBJECTIVE INFERENCE. ALL KARMA, ETAL, IS REAL, BUT TEMPORARY. DEFINITIONS ARE DEFINATIVE, BY DEFINITION.


    WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

    WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

    bhaktajan said:

    Next rule of thumb is ---to check with three sources:

    1. Guru - Mentor

    2. Sadhu - expert colleagues of the Mentor

    3. Sastra - the texts


    juantoo3 said:
    The first and final source is my heart. If my heart warns me, I heed it's advice. I also consult my intellect, and where it conflicts with my heart, I usually allow the heart to prevail.

    There are many competing religious texts, some still being written or added to even to this day. Humans have some inexplicable need to overly complicate their lives, seeking loopholes to rules. Yet when one whittles down every one of the major faiths to its bare essence, its core beliefs, there is little difference among them. Summed up in few words: Do not do to others what you do not wish done to yourself. Seek to return to the source from which you instinctively know you came.

    “PARAM-ATMA” IS LOCATED IN THE HEART WITNESSING AND REMEMBERING ALL. THE SUPREME SOUL IS LOCALISED IN THE HEART OF ALL LIVING ENTITIES, IN BOTH THE ANIMATED SOULS AND NEUCLEUS OF INERT ELEMENTS. THERE ARE SO MANY AVENUES TO EEK-OUT AND VOCATE ONE’S ENERGY, ULTIMATELY ROUTINE WORK PAYS FOR ANY FREETIME.

    THE WORLD OF WORK IS LIKE A BASIC GAME OF “MUSICAL CHAIRS” BUT WITH CANNY COMPETITIVE EDGES ADDED. KEEPING THEM DOWN ON THE FARM AFTER SEEING PARIS … IS ACTUALLY DO-ABLE, BUT THE LOGISTICS ALLOW FOR A LOT LATERAL FLUXUATION.

    [IMO ROME NEVER FELL…IT WAS SUBURBAN SPRALL…FAR OFF THE GRID, UNTIL THE REINESANCE MAKE HEADLINES A VAIBLE COMMODITY ALONG WITH COMMERCE]


    WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

    WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

    bhaktajan said:

    The alarming note is that we are souls in a vast ocean, a vast of the material cosmos ---therefore we are tiny and lost and powerless, and worse, as spirit souls alive here in a conscious [biological] body we are conditioned by the laws of nature...

    juantoo3 said:
    Agreed, but to me there is nothing alarming about it.
    THE ALARM IS INREGARDS TO DEATH ROBBING ONE OF THE ABILITY TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE HUMAN STRATUM OF LIFE. ALL 8,400,000 SPECIES OF LIVING CREATURES ---EACH DOES THE SAME FOUR ACTIVITIES [SOME MORE POLISHED THAN OTHERS]:

    1. EAT,

    2. SPEEP,

    3. MATE,

    4. DEFEND.

    THE OBJECTIVE WORLD IS KNOWN AS “THE FIELD OF ACTIVITIES”. WE ARE FREE TO ACT ON OUR OWN RECOGNISANCE…HAPPY TO BE PART OF A TRIBE, ALCLIMATED AND COZY.

     
  18. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2009
    Messages:
    1,594
    Likes Received:
    10
    bhaktajan said:

    Godhead is the goal.

    juantoo3 said:
    Agreed, a return to the Source from which all comes.

    WE MAY BE GUILT-FREE CAFÉ DAY DREAMER-PHILOSOPHERS. BUT ENORMOUS QUANTITIES OF DEATHS OCCUR EVERY PASSING DAY. AND THE MAJORITY OF



    WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

    WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

    bhaktajan said:

    So the rat race is all about raising above good & bad karma…but without a single-minded intent and “taste is in the pudding approach” we can’t find the absolute personality of Godhead. We must search him out … and the He will bestow as much grace as you truly ask for. We are on our own recognizance. We are in an ocean. We seek the repose of other persons. So why not seek out the Supreme Person? Only envy and colossal ignorant bad-luck can cause on to miss the target.

    juantoo3 said:
    I suspect we are saying much the same thing with different words.

    So why does this *require* multiple lives? I sense it does not, that the avenue for returning to the Source is freely available to any who will but seek with a proper heart.

    Why does this require allowing other humans to exert influence over you, telling you to take your place in line as they see fit, restraining you from pursuing the IS on your own, demanding that you *must* go through "gurus" or other authority to reach the IS?

    bhaktajan said:

    “THERE FOR THE GRACE OF GOD GO I” One third of life is spent sleeping, One third of life is spent working and commuting, One third of life is eating, washing, dressing & standing-by. The seeker who seeks source knows that jettisoning the body will occur, and our short “un-garrenteeded” sujourn is walking a razor’s edge with oblivion. What good is lost free-will?

    All our freedom is “controlled”. Agree? When the morning constitution calls we awake and assume the position on “a pocelin thrown”. We follow all norms of ‘Rome’. we have received speech and *propaganda and marketeers galore. the modern generation are not electrical engineers, they just tap the icon and get in-debted to the big man, where sex exhausts and the state is occupied by the best street-barkers. and antropy and the laws of “conservation of energy” lulls one into being taken up by the swells.

    A proper heart can’t be measured, detailed, defined, codified?

    But abberant an anti-social crazy-maker’s biography may reveal “truths”? And traditionally fill quasi-true headlines too?

    it is undoubtedly very difficult to curb the restless mind, but it is possible by suitable practice and by detachment. Those who are on this path are resolute in purpose, and their aim is one.

    [*this is the word for the spanish word, ‘advertising’]


    WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

    WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

    bhaktajan said:

    And time only exists here in the manifest material world. In the abode of Godhead time does not manifest.

    juantoo3 said:

    I am inclined to agree, but I cannot say with certainty.


    bhaktajan said:

    You know for certain what you have heard since time-immemorial:
    “The kingdom of God is Eternal” you have heard this?


    “Nothing lasts forever” you have heard this?

    So you have beheld that there are two true-diametrical “opposites”.

    IOW, you are in the middle of a ‘world made of duality’.
    Laws of physics have at its root the principle of duality. 01010101


    OTOH, ACCORDING TO THE VEDAS “TIME” IS ETERNAL. AND OF COURSE, I CAN’T CONCEIVE OF AN ETERNAL LIFE SPAN, OTHERTHAN TO SAY, IT WOULD BE ENDLESS GOOD HEALTH … BUT BELOW, THERE ARE MYRAIDS OF RELATIVE PERCEPTIONS OF EVER SUB-ATOMIC SPHERES OF LIFE FORMS.
     
  19. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2009
    Messages:
    1,594
    Likes Received:
    10
    the concept of "absolute," or the nature of "reality?"


    a] i AM SPEAKING OF the concept of "absolute.


    BUT…


    B] the nature of "reality" IS THE PRIME EXAMPLE OF ABSOLUTE(S) IN ACTION.
     
    juantoo3 likes this.
  20. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2009
    Messages:
    1,594
    Likes Received:
    10
    I POSTED THE OP TO GET RESPONDENTS TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THERE EXISTS THE IDEA THAT “ABSOLUTES” DO EXIST.


    THUS, THE NEXT THING TO DO IS NAME AT LEAST ONE ABSOLUTE.


    OTOH, IF SOMEONE SAYS NAY! NONE SUCH THING! …THEN LET ‘EM SAY HOW-COME(?).
     

Share This Page