DOES GOD LEARN FROM MEN?

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by RJM Corbet, Sep 25, 2018.

  1. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    Yes. And so it's an unfolding experience. Anyone can be 'wise in hindsight'.

    But of course time future/past is just a natural perception. Time/space is the limit of the dimension of nature.

    Beyond is the greater dimension of Spirit, which surrounds includes and permeates the lesser dimension if nature. The greater wheel of Spirit turns the lesser wheel of nature, but is not turned by it.

    "We are barely able to know about hhe things of Earth and it is a struggle to understand what is close to us; who may hope to understand heavenly things?"
    Wisdom 10:16

    Happy new year @OrtaYol
     
  2. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Because the choice, in the moment, is yours.

    You would have to demonstrate that:
    God knows what you will do,
    He has pre-determined you to do it.

    God is passive in the first part and active in the second — but that doesn''t necessarily follow. God might remain passive throughout.
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    I could say, God does not possess foreknowledge. God doesn't possess past knowledge. Why? Because God does not exist in time. Try looking at it from that point of view. Rather, try looking from this, for us paradoxical, point of view: For God, everything is 'now'.

    It does for time-bound entities, but even then not absolutely. We're far more predictable than we like to think we are.

    It doesn't. Nor does the past. Nor does the now, really. It's just our way of looking at things because we're finite entities.
     
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  3. Namaste Jesus

    Namaste Jesus Praise the Lord and Enjoy the Chai

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    I knew you were going to say that.:D
    Whoa, really Bhagavad Gita worthy, that.;)
     
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  4. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Dem books ... They knew a thing or two! :D
     
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  5. OrtaYol

    OrtaYol Member

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    If He knows, then how is it not predetermined? You keep saying the choice is mine but if God knows what choice I am going to make what other choice can I make besides that which He knows?

    The past existed, the present is existing.. if it doesn't exist what are we experiencing? I don't think God existing out of time necessarily means that He knows the future since the future doesn't become a part of time until it becomes the present.
     
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  6. OrtaYol

    OrtaYol Member

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    Yeah but it's fun to try :)
     
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  7. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    Perhaps this belongs in the science forum.
    The Order of Time.
    The latest scientific ideas.
    It's an hour long, but it's good.

     
  8. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    You're assuming a causal correlation between knowing and determining.
     
  9. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    Are there people who can glimpse the future? Diviners, or natural psychics? I have met a few. Kings like Alexander the Great visited oracles?
     
  10. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    It's a good question. Do they see the future, or do they see the way the future is shaping up?
     
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  11. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    The one thing I know from first-hand experience is there are people who do see/glimpse the future. Even before they have started asking any questions. A lot of my 'spiritual development' was about wanting to know.

    Now since 'returning' to Christ, that stuff suddenly doesn't matter to me anymore. It's in God's hands. Its so simple; I do my best, try to act from my own highest level, and leave it to God.
     
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  12. OrtaYol

    OrtaYol Member

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    Yes, and I am asking your thoughts on how it can be otherwise if the future is known by an infallible being.

    If I have option A and B in front of me and God knows/knew before the existence of time itself that I was going to choose A, how can I possibly choose B? I am not say it is Gods will that I choose A or B, just that if He knows my choice then that choice is locked in and if it is locked in then it is not really a choice.
     
  13. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    I'd say that choice reflects backwards and forwards in time from the moment it is made
     
  14. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    The question of omniscience and predetermination is not a simple one, and philosophers still argue the case.

    Check out Foreknowledge and Free Will
     
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  15. OrtaYol

    OrtaYol Member

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    Interesting :)

    How would a choice reflect backwards in time?
     
  16. OrtaYol

    OrtaYol Member

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    Thanks for the link, I'll be honest when it goes into the mathematical symbols it loses me.

    "The argument (Logical Determinism) that a proposition's being true prior to the occurrence of the event it describes logically precludes free will ultimately rests on a modal fallacy. And the ancillary argument that a proposition's being true prior to the occurrence of the event it describes causes the future event to occur turns on a confusion (i) of the truth-making (semantic) relation between an event and its description with (ii) the causal relation between two events."

    I don't understand what the "modal fallacy" is here.

    Really though the whole thing falls apart from very early on in the paper.

    "Second is that the challenge to the existence of free will is posed not just by God's foreknowledge but by any foreknowledge whatsoever. The religious version of the puzzle arises because God is said to have omniscience, that is, knowledge of everything. But the problem would arise if anyone at all (that is, anyone whatsoever) were to have knowledge of our future actions. This generalized version of the problem has come to be known as the problem of Epistemic Determinism ("epistemic" because it involves knowledge; see Epistemology). For example, if my wife were to know today that I would choose tea (rather than coffee) for my breakfast tomorrow, then one could argue (paralleling Maimonides's argument) that it would be impossible for me not to choose tea tomorrow at breakfast."

    It is conflating infallible knowledge of the future(actual knowledge) with fallible knowledge(predictions). You cannot compare a being knowing my future actions with certainty to a being who is using prediction. In reality his wife cannot know for certain that he will drink tea, he might have a glass of water instead, he might not get to have a drink at all, even if she was right about it, it is at best an educated guess.



    "Moses Maimonides (1135-1204) has set out the problem in the traditional manner:

    …"Does God know or does He not know that a certain individual will be good or bad? If thou sayest 'He knows', then it necessarily follows that [that] man is compelled to act as God knew beforehand he would act, otherwise God's knowledge would be imperfect.…" (1966, pp. 99-100)"

    I think the solution to this is that while God knows every detail of the past(existed), and every detail of the present(existing), He cannot know the future(going to exist) because it is not there to know, it does not exist. This does not affect the perfection of His knowledge in the same way that an inability to "make a rock so heavy He could not lift it" does not affect His omnipotence.
     
  17. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    D'you know ... to be absolutely honest ... I'm not sure what I meant when I wrote that ... :confused:
     
  18. OrtaYol

    OrtaYol Member

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    Well at least it sounded good :)
     
  19. dfnj2019

    dfnj2019 Member

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    Human beings exist so our omnipotent God can experience the thrill of having limitations by vicarious sharing in our experiences of joys and frustrations.
     
  20. dfnj2019

    dfnj2019 Member

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    My preferred way of saying the rock thing is this: Can God have a thought so complex that even She can't understand it?

    Slightly sexists but sorry. My experience with women is they have many more thoughts going on in their heads than men do.

    One thing on the nature of being omnipotent. Omnipotent means without limitations. This means God is not limited by the laws of logic or physics. So God can be more than one thing at the same time and still be a thing. Of course, thing implies limitation so there's that. But God can certainly create a rock he could not lift or have a thought so complex he would not understand it. God is all things at the same time. Logic has to do with language. God is not represented with language very well.

    I think it is the wrong to think God cannot know the future. As part of the realization of God's omnipotence every possibility will eventually be realized and experience. Otherwise, God's omnipotence would be incomplete. What makes more sense to you. We have one Universe with one set of realized possibilities. Or every possibility exists in a multiverse of time where God is the consciousness of the entire enchilada. God's consciousness existing at a higher dimension would be a completely different experience of time. Many sages and religions claim all of existence is contained in a single moment. Just because we experience time in a certain way does not mean God experiences time the same way. Based on a trinity way of thinking about God I would say God does not experience time at all but experiences everything that is going to happen all at once in a perfect unity of completeness. Maybe God's way of experiencing the Universe is based on how consciousness existing in the Universe experiences the Universe. Just collecting every thought imaginable would be some collection!

    If we are going to nitpick at all about the scope of existence then it also makes no sense at all that anything exists at all as opposed to nothing. So why not choose everything exists because then understanding the word God is so much easier. If we have just one Universe then we have to discuss God's purpose or our purpose. At least if a multiverse of every possibility being realized there's nothing left to say about purpose.

    Here's a really great article on Everett’s thesis. I am of course a staunch Everettian. The article argues against Everettian way of thinking but how can your brain get any smarter if you do not appreciate what the opposition is saying! I read the article and every criticism made are the reasons why I support the Everettian way of thinking. I think it comes down to a subjective choice and not objective reason. Even though the author of the article thinks he is arguing objectively when he is just expressing subjective opinions or interpretations based on his own values. A different set of values and you can take the same information and be a staunch Everettian!

    https://www.quantamagazine.org/why-...quantum-mechanics-has-many-problems-20181018/
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2019
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