DOES GOD LEARN FROM MEN?

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by RJM Corbet, Sep 25, 2018.

  1. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2016
    Messages:
    1,193
    Likes Received:
    230
    Yes. And so it's an unfolding experience. Anyone can be 'wise in hindsight'.

    But of course time future/past is just a natural perception. Time/space is the limit of the dimension of nature.

    Beyond is the greater dimension of Spirit, which surrounds includes and permeates the lesser dimension if nature. The greater wheel of Spirit turns the lesser wheel of nature, but is not turned by it.

    "We are barely able to know about hhe things of Earth and it is a struggle to understand what is close to us; who may hope to understand heavenly things?"
    Wisdom 10:16

    Happy new year @OrtaYol
     
  2. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2003
    Messages:
    9,604
    Likes Received:
    878
    Because the choice, in the moment, is yours.

    You would have to demonstrate that:
    God knows what you will do,
    He has pre-determined you to do it.

    God is passive in the first part and active in the second — but that doesn''t necessarily follow. God might remain passive throughout.
    0
    I could say, God does not possess foreknowledge. God doesn't possess past knowledge. Why? Because God does not exist in time. Try looking at it from that point of view. Rather, try looking from this, for us paradoxical, point of view: For God, everything is 'now'.

    It does for time-bound entities, but even then not absolutely. We're far more predictable than we like to think we are.

    It doesn't. Nor does the past. Nor does the now, really. It's just our way of looking at things because we're finite entities.
     
    Namaste Jesus likes this.
  3. Namaste Jesus

    Namaste Jesus Praise the Lord and Enjoy the Chai

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2014
    Messages:
    2,920
    Likes Received:
    549
    I knew you were going to say that.:D
    Whoa, really Bhagavad Gita worthy, that.;)
     
    Thomas likes this.
  4. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2003
    Messages:
    9,604
    Likes Received:
    878
    Dem books ... They knew a thing or two! :D
     
    Namaste Jesus likes this.
  5. OrtaYol

    OrtaYol Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2018
    Messages:
    54
    Likes Received:
    15
    If He knows, then how is it not predetermined? You keep saying the choice is mine but if God knows what choice I am going to make what other choice can I make besides that which He knows?

    The past existed, the present is existing.. if it doesn't exist what are we experiencing? I don't think God existing out of time necessarily means that He knows the future since the future doesn't become a part of time until it becomes the present.
     
    RJM Corbet likes this.
  6. OrtaYol

    OrtaYol Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2018
    Messages:
    54
    Likes Received:
    15
    Yeah but it's fun to try :)
     
    RJM Corbet likes this.
  7. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2016
    Messages:
    1,193
    Likes Received:
    230
    Perhaps this belongs in the science forum.
    The Order of Time.
    The latest scientific ideas.
    It's an hour long, but it's good.

     
  8. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2003
    Messages:
    9,604
    Likes Received:
    878
    You're assuming a causal correlation between knowing and determining.
     
  9. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2016
    Messages:
    1,193
    Likes Received:
    230
    Are there people who can glimpse the future? Diviners, or natural psychics? I have met a few. Kings like Alexander the Great visited oracles?
     
  10. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2003
    Messages:
    9,604
    Likes Received:
    878
    It's a good question. Do they see the future, or do they see the way the future is shaping up?
     
    RJM Corbet likes this.
  11. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2016
    Messages:
    1,193
    Likes Received:
    230
    The one thing I know from first-hand experience is there are people who do see/glimpse the future. Even before they have started asking any questions. A lot of my 'spiritual development' was about wanting to know.

    Now since 'returning' to Christ, that stuff suddenly doesn't matter to me anymore. It's in God's hands. Its so simple; I do my best, try to act from my own highest level, and leave it to God.
     
    Thomas likes this.
  12. OrtaYol

    OrtaYol Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2018
    Messages:
    54
    Likes Received:
    15
    Yes, and I am asking your thoughts on how it can be otherwise if the future is known by an infallible being.

    If I have option A and B in front of me and God knows/knew before the existence of time itself that I was going to choose A, how can I possibly choose B? I am not say it is Gods will that I choose A or B, just that if He knows my choice then that choice is locked in and if it is locked in then it is not really a choice.
     
  13. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2003
    Messages:
    9,604
    Likes Received:
    878
    I'd say that choice reflects backwards and forwards in time from the moment it is made
     
  14. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2003
    Messages:
    9,604
    Likes Received:
    878
    The question of omniscience and predetermination is not a simple one, and philosophers still argue the case.

    Check out Foreknowledge and Free Will
     
    OrtaYol likes this.
  15. OrtaYol

    OrtaYol Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2018
    Messages:
    54
    Likes Received:
    15
    Interesting :)

    How would a choice reflect backwards in time?
     
  16. OrtaYol

    OrtaYol Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2018
    Messages:
    54
    Likes Received:
    15
    Thanks for the link, I'll be honest when it goes into the mathematical symbols it loses me.

    "The argument (Logical Determinism) that a proposition's being true prior to the occurrence of the event it describes logically precludes free will ultimately rests on a modal fallacy. And the ancillary argument that a proposition's being true prior to the occurrence of the event it describes causes the future event to occur turns on a confusion (i) of the truth-making (semantic) relation between an event and its description with (ii) the causal relation between two events."

    I don't understand what the "modal fallacy" is here.

    Really though the whole thing falls apart from very early on in the paper.

    "Second is that the challenge to the existence of free will is posed not just by God's foreknowledge but by any foreknowledge whatsoever. The religious version of the puzzle arises because God is said to have omniscience, that is, knowledge of everything. But the problem would arise if anyone at all (that is, anyone whatsoever) were to have knowledge of our future actions. This generalized version of the problem has come to be known as the problem of Epistemic Determinism ("epistemic" because it involves knowledge; see Epistemology). For example, if my wife were to know today that I would choose tea (rather than coffee) for my breakfast tomorrow, then one could argue (paralleling Maimonides's argument) that it would be impossible for me not to choose tea tomorrow at breakfast."

    It is conflating infallible knowledge of the future(actual knowledge) with fallible knowledge(predictions). You cannot compare a being knowing my future actions with certainty to a being who is using prediction. In reality his wife cannot know for certain that he will drink tea, he might have a glass of water instead, he might not get to have a drink at all, even if she was right about it, it is at best an educated guess.



    "Moses Maimonides (1135-1204) has set out the problem in the traditional manner:

    …"Does God know or does He not know that a certain individual will be good or bad? If thou sayest 'He knows', then it necessarily follows that [that] man is compelled to act as God knew beforehand he would act, otherwise God's knowledge would be imperfect.…" (1966, pp. 99-100)"

    I think the solution to this is that while God knows every detail of the past(existed), and every detail of the present(existing), He cannot know the future(going to exist) because it is not there to know, it does not exist. This does not affect the perfection of His knowledge in the same way that an inability to "make a rock so heavy He could not lift it" does not affect His omnipotence.
     
  17. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2003
    Messages:
    9,604
    Likes Received:
    878
    D'you know ... to be absolutely honest ... I'm not sure what I meant when I wrote that ... :confused:
     
  18. OrtaYol

    OrtaYol Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2018
    Messages:
    54
    Likes Received:
    15
    Well at least it sounded good :)
     

Share This Page