Salvation and Belief

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by muhammad_isa, Jul 17, 2019.

  1. At least we agree on that!

    I also added, nor "any interpretation of a text".

    Sorry, in my eyes you are missing the point. Alas, I can be be no clearer.

    Thank you.
     
  2. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls Staff Member

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    Of course the books are printed by mankind .. Quran's don't "fall out of the sky" :)
    It is the content/meaning that is important. If the content is unreliable, mankind could be led astray.

    You imply that the modern Quran is different from the original memorized words.
    If this is true, then what might have changed?
    As you don't seem to want to answer this, I assume that you'd rather not say.

    I can't find any flaws in it .. it makes perfect sense to me. I therefore consider any discrepancies in text over the years as insignificant.

    The Bible has many authors, and you claimed that the Qur'an does also.
    I would dispute that. The revelations that Muhammad, peace be with him, received via Angel Gabriel were not changed or added to by other authors. Any changes in text are to do with dialect.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
  3. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    I see the luminous spirituality of the Bible. I have prayed the New Testament. I believe in the Incarnate Son of God and the Holy Trinity. Who wrote what and when, water colour ink he used, whether it was a Tuesday or a Thursday is immaterial in that sense.

    What is material is the journey. Some Christians find it impossible to accept the findings of scholarship. I happen to believe that the author of the Gospel of John was John, one of the Twelve, a first-hand eye-witness and companion of Christ. I also believe it's most likely that the author of the Epistles of John was not that John. Or rather, the epistles that have come down to us have been reworked by not John, but someone who was thoroughly steeped in John's theology ... I think some of the epistle texts are the most staggeringly, spiritually optimistic words in the whole Bible. The same way I believe the Letter to the Colossians might not be Paul's but whoever wrote it was a spiritual, theological and metaphysical genius ... or, more simply, inspired and infused with the Holy Spirit. Same with the Letter to the Hebrews.

    There has been no discovery made that has impacted my belief in the Revelation contained in the New Testament, and neither is there any sufficient reason for the claims of scholarship to impact the belief in the Revelation of the Qur'an.

    For those who claim there should be, or what they learned impacted them, OK, that's their narrative, but it's not a fact, it's a subjective assessment, and for too often, it's over-stated ...
     
  4. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    Justice, actually.

    Truth and Justice are distinct.

    Here's how I see it. Reason and Intellect allow us to access and interact with thoughts, ideas, cognitions, concepts, and so on, and truth as it presents itself there. But there is also truth in smells, touch, taste, the position of the joints and muscles , the sights we see, the sounds we hear, the emotions we feel - intellect is a fine thing, but it has this tendency to elevate itself over the other senses we have. Truth is not confined to the objects of our intellects.
     
  5. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls Staff Member

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    You are splitting hairs. It is not possible to meet out justice without determining the truth.

    We might draw incorrect conclusions using our intellects, I would agree.
    However, without using our intellect, we would know nothing :)
     
  6. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm saying scholars say there are textual differences.

    I have no idea.

    Nope, it's rather that such is not my goal. I'm not trying to prove or disprove anyone's sacred text.

    From the standpoint of orthodoxy I fully accept the 'standard' story of the Qur'an. It's the go-to Scripture, endorsed by the Tradition.

    Same as the Biblical canon was compiled and declared the go-to Scripture, endorsed by the Tradition.

    All I'm saying is all three Books, the Old Testament, the New Testament and the Qur'an follow a similar pattern of emergence, and to declare that the Hebrew and Christian texts were corrupted, and the Moslem text was not, is simply untenable, in the light of text analysis, text criticism, history, etc.

    But then, I'd argue that none of the three has been corrupted, and that each is sufficient in itself for the salvation of peoples. As are the sacra doctrina of all the great traditions, in whatever way they word 'salvation' might be interpreted.
     
  7. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls Staff Member

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    Right .. so you believe that the Qur'an has been fraudulently changed .. or that Muhammad was sincere but did not actually receive revelation from G-d. I do not :)
    Yet, as I have stated, I believe in all of the prophets/messengers whom G-d appointed, mentioned in the Bible,
    I acknowledge the Torah, the Psalms and the Gospel as being originally revealed by G-d.

    You believe Jesus, peace be with him, is the Christ/Messiah, while the vast majority of Jews do not.
    ..yet in the same way as the Jews, you reject the message of the Qur'an. i.e. what was revealed to Muhammad by G-d
     
  8. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls Staff Member

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    That makes no sense to me.
    I would agree that many sacred texts originate from Divine sources.
    I cannot agree that these texts in their present forms are all accurate or correct.

    I do believe that G-d knows who is sincere and who is not, regardless of their professed faith.

    ..this brings us to the subject of salvation..
    Many Abrahamic sects of Christianity and Islam might claim that they are the only one to "be saved".
    They might argue that it is through grace i.e. because they believe in Jesus or Muhammad,
    or maybe because they hold correct dogma etc.

    It's all bull**** as far as I'm concerned :D
    ..and G-d knows best
     
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  9. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    Not at all. Justice has to do with administering the conformance to laws, with fairness and impartiality. Truth, conformance with facts, can be terribly unfair.

    How much intellect is involved in knowing the smell of a flower or the sound of leaves rustling in the wind, or to know hunger or thirst? I don't mean thinking about these, just knowing them for what they are.
     
  10. Way back, I was quite taken ( a "glimpse"? ) by a sermon of George MacDonald, who said that there is " no opposition, no strife whatever, between mercy and justice"
     
  11. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    Funny thing, there's a German word, "Gottesgnadentum", literally, "the domain of God's grace". It has a very negative (non-religious) connotation, in the context of German red-tape bureaucracy. It means, to be at some petty tyrant civil servant's mercy.
     
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  12. Maybe we need a thread on Grace? (But then, its all I talk about really)

    :(
     
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  13. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    No. And I have been at some pains to explain why.

    I sense the problem here, that if one questions one's received notions, then the whole thing starts to unravel, and any suggestion opens the door to every suggestion, but really it's not the case.

    Not saying that, either.

    As do I.

    Yes, that's correct.

    Rather, I believe that in embracing the message of the New Testament, I have no need of the Qur'an. The New Testament is sufficient in itself.

    But that's my belief. I do not ask you to believe the Incarnation, nor the Trinity, nor do I refute that Muhammad was in receipt of Divine Revelation. I'm just saying our sacred books have much the same provenance, each in its own context ... not that the content is corrupt or false or fabricated.
     
  14. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Really? What evidence have you of corruption.

    I would say all.

    I'd say that no text in any form can be: Even the Prophet demonstrated, as mentioned elsewhere, that three contradictory readings of his own words were all, nevertheless, correct.

    The fault is not with God, but man. How can any man-made language encompass the Divine either sufficiently or accurately?

    Here is where I'd refer to 'grace' ...
     
  15. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea An ordinary cup of tea

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    @muhammad_isa It appears to me that you think you are in a debate with a Christian over which religion is correct and the other is wrong. This not the case.
     
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  16. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls Staff Member

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    I don't know what you mean,
    I was raised as a Christian..

    All things bright and beautiful,
    All creatures great and small,
    All things wise and wonderful,
    The Lord G-d made them all


    I still believe that :)
     
  17. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    Why not? There are plenty of translations. On an interfaith dialogue forum, boasting of not even making an effort to read the other person's scripture is not bravado but completely beside the point.
     
  18. Arif Ghamiq

    Arif Ghamiq Active Member

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    Salaam (peace)

    Mostly, Islamic Scholars say the Quran was written down but not collected during the life of Muhammad - all Shi'a Scholars reject that - they hold it was written down and collected. I don't debate it because 1.) I don't like debating and 2.) I do not want to get into the destructive, endless & pointless Sunni Shi'a conflict.

    There is actually a lot of interesting stuff to be found in the study of Quranic Authenticity - but you have to calm down to get it.

    I am firm in my Faith - and there isn't anything I'm going to find out about the Quran that is gonna change my relationship with Allah.

    There were no vowel sound marks in the older texts (as is true with old Hebrew texts) - look at an Arabic newspaper today - no vowel sound marks. Also in the older texts, standing Alifs weren't used, which comes up alot when the number of letters in a Surah or in a verse is being discussed, especially when numeric values are being calculated (Pure Land just popped in my head - haraki or something). There is one manuscript that has a Sad in a particular place where all the others have a Sin. Some text include the Basmallah in the Al Fatihah as Ayah/Verse One. Look at different translations and you will find this differrence - based on the manuscript it's translated from - nothing to flip out about - it's all a fascinating study - can even be enlightening I have found.

    Arabic is so beautiful - as is Hebrew which I've also studied to a lesser degree - so, so similar - often the same. If we could find as much in common with our Religions as there is with the languages their texts are written in - we would be alot better off I think.

    Something we often miss when studying the character of Prophet Muhammad is that he was a real chilled out person.

    Anyway here is a short video about the Quran of Imam 'Ali


     
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  19. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls Staff Member

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    Wa'alaikumusalam warahmatullah (and peace be upon you and G-d's Mercy) :)
     
  20. Oh yes, hakarai, related to "no-calculation".......or maybe wu wei, effortlessness, or even maybe "love God and do what you will"

    Not much to do with calculating numbers, but the Pure Land does tend to pop up in the most unlikely of places, or at least, little glimpses.

    :)
     

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