Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by wil, Sep 4, 2019.
Story of my life. They should hand out lapel badges, sigh. But IMO you said what was on your mind
I tend to agree. I think his Christianity was largely pragmatic.
But the idea of Mary's supremacy was in circulation long before ... its origin is from the Council of Ephesus in 431AD.
The term troubles non-Catholics, I agree, but it is an honorific, and it is in relation to her Son.
Yep. Queen by virtue of her relation to her Son, who is King.
Not quite. There is the Hebrew word 'gebirah', but it's contextual. Bathsheba was the mother of Solomon and sat at his right hand. Athaliah was the daughter of King Ahab and Queen Jezebel of Israel, Queen Regnant from 841–835 BC. The King's mother carried more influence than his wives.
And Matthew emphasises the relation between Christ and His mother in his gospel.
Not really, it was rather to harmonise the dates between West and East.
Quite right. But this is an old, old discussion, and if you follow the dates as per John, you get three days and three nights. By which time the Church had settled into a Tradition.
Now, you may not like tradition, but then you have to supply concrete evidence to undo it, which you have failed to do.
Your whole thesis on Peter and Paul rely on a subjective interpretation of prophetic utterances — the biggest rabbit-holes there are — all manner of people assert the same texts to mean so many different things.
Yes. The Mother of God. That's quite something to get the head around? But that's why Catholicism keeps the mysteries -- doesn't try to deny and sidestep, imo
Spirit is weaving nature, all the time?
Spiritual laws are not always subject to logical, linguistic and legalistic analysis? Spiritual laws may often seem different and even opposite the natural laws? But still we get the message
Being as t
Being as the pope used his ex cathedra to put "Mary" into heaven, it seems it is more than honorific. As for Bathsheba, she was but one of many wives of David, and was never referred to as a queen. One of David's wives would have been the daughter of king Saul, who could have been a princess. The only queen with respect to Solomon would be the queen of Sheba, who had her own worldly kingdom on earth. The relationship between Yeshua and his mother in the gospels, was one of mother and son, not of "Mary" being a queen.
As for the date of Easter, the Jewish calendar was a lunar calendar, which set the date of the 14th of Nissan for Passover. Julius Caesar, the fifth head of the beast (Revelation 17), had set a solar calendar (Julian calendar), of which Easter was a part of the solar solstice. The present calendar, set by a pope, Pontiff Maximus, is also a solar calendar. The office of Pontiff Maximus, keeper of the calendar, is taken from the leaders of the pagan religion down through history and then usurped by Julius Caesar, a head of the beast of Revelation 17. It would be wise not to take on the markings of the beast. Those who are marked get to drink from the cup of the wrath of God (Revelation 14:10).
As for your 431 AD, that date follows the Council of Nicaea, which was in 325 AD. The pagan feast of Astarte/Easter was not for "Mary", wife of Joseph, but for Astarte's/ Ishtar spring festival. The sunrise services goes back to the sunrise worship of Ishtar.
Why do you think Julius Ceasar was the fifth head? Who were the other heads?
Revelation 17:3-11 … 18
“… So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: (*) and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition … And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.” (*)
(*) How does this description of the Whore of Babylon look like Mary the Mother of Christ? IMO they couldn't be further apart?
(*) The Seven hills of Rome? So Rome is the Whore of Babylon?
As per your quotes, the book of Revelation was written in the reign of the 6th head of the beast. "five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come" The "five are fallen" would include the 5th head of the beast, who would be the previous "king", and that would be "Julius Caesar". Per Daniel, he would have 10 horns, the Augustus Caesars, who reigned between the destruction of Jerusalem by Pompeo/Caesar and Titus. The "other is not", who would defeat 3 kings, per Daniel, and would attempt to change the law and the times, would be Constantine, whose legacy, the Roman church, would reign for time, times and half a time, and then the end would come (Daniel 7:24-25). We are now in the era of the eight head of the beast, the one that was, and is not, and is to come per Revelation 17, which would be the spirit of the emperor/dictator Caesar, and would also have 10 horns (10 kings/emperors/dictators).
The "Whore of Babylon" is simply the mystery religion of Babylon, whose daughters are like their mother, the churches of the many gods, such as a trinity of gods, of which the sun king is a foremost figure, and the queen of heaven is secondary, except among the witches, for whom mother earth, the queen of heaven is foremost. Examples of the queen of heaven would be the fertility goddess Astarte/Easter. The Catholic churches "queen of heaven" would just be their insert to fill the vacuum for the pagan pantheon. The wife of Joseph has nothing to do with this perversion. Her body is resting in her grave. As for the "great city", that pertains to the mystery religion who reigns over the kings, such as the church crowns the kings/queens, such as in the present case of the queen of England being crowned by a daughter of Babylon. That the mother church and her pope, mostly resides in the city of 7 hills, is secondary. Babylon the Great, the mystery religion, would rule over all 7 heads of the beast, starting from Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon thru the 7 heads of the beast, ending with Constantine. We are now at the "end"/"end of the age" (Daniel 12:13), and the understanding is "sealed" except to those with "insight" (Daniel 12:10). We are in the time were the "wicked"/"lawless" will continue to act wickedly and lawlessly. (Daniel 12:10). Per Revelation 14, their reign is coming to a crashing end (Revelation 14:10-11).
The notion of the bodily assumption of Mary into heaven appears as early as the 3rd century. It appears in formal church writings as early as the 6th century. It was a common belief in Christianity until the Reformation when some of the new Protestant schools of thought rejected it. It is still part of Lutheranism although not considered a big deal. (It is interesting that various churches who insist on Sola Scriptura nonetheless retain pre-existing non-Biblical beliefs.) Pius XII made it a Catholic dogma, a mandatory belief for Catholics.
The idea of Mary as Queen of Heaven does not appear until the 5th century but was never formally defined until the Assumption of Mary dogma established by Pius XII. But both tradition and the papal encyclical have it that Mary was not crowned as such until the Assumption, that is, in heaven. Any perceived connection to earthly queens is irrelevant.
The Jewish calendar is a lunar/solar one, with occasional leap months to ensure that Pesach always falls in Spring. Passover begins at sundown on Nisan 15, not Nisan 14. The lambs were to be sacrificed on the afternoon of Nisan 14 so that they would be cooked and ready to eat that evening at the Seder. Since the Temple no longer exists, it is not possible to perform sacrifices today. And Nisan is a month in the Jewish calendar. Nissan is a Japanese car.
If you read Revelation 13, you will see that the fifth head is Claudius. Julius was the first head. The sixth and seventh heads are both Nero, with Domitian being Nero returned. One of the heads had a mortal wound but was healed. There was a popular legend at the time of Domitian that Nero either never really died or came back to life. Nero Redivivus In the story presented by John of Patmos, Domitian as the returned Nero was responsible for the persecutions of Christians going on in the late 1st century. The truth is that while there were such persecutions throughout the Empire, they were locally instigated and not authorized by Rome.
Astarte, a Sidonian goddess, did not have a Spring festival. She was the goddess of war and of sexual love. The word Easter does not appear until Bede wrote of a Spring goddess named Ēostre that used to be worshipped in what is now England, but that worship had died out there since the coming of Christianity. Various English translations of documents around the time of Nicaea often use the word Easter but the real word used was πάσχα (Greek, which is pronounced paska), or pascha (Latin). Both are derived from the Hebrew פֶּסַחPesach or Passover, possibly via transliteration from Aramaic, which at that time was more widely known than Hebrew.
From your link.
“Long before the time of Christ, the pagan goddess Ishtar, or sometimes known as Astarte or Ashtoreth, was worshiped in different countries. Our modern practice of sunrise worship originates from the pagan festival honoring Ishtar. The story of Easter also helps explain how Sunday became sacred and the origin of virgin worship.”
Ishtar aka Inanna, as well as other variants on this goddess throughout the Mesopotamian area were associated with the planet Venus, which can appear in the morning or in the evening or not at all depending on the relative orbital positions of Earth or Venus. I am unable to find any association of Ishtar etc. worship with sunrise.
Sunrise Service is a Protestant thing and is of comparatively recent origin. The original tradition, still practiced by the Catholic Church under the name Easter Vigil, has certain practices that begin either at sunset on Saturday evening or at midnight, depending what definition of Sunday you want to apply, These practices are over by dawn. No sunrise worship in the earliest form of Christianity.
Sunday became sacred because the Gospels all state that the empty tomb was found of the first day of the week, which corresponds to Sunday in Hebrew calendars.
There is no explanation in the article you linked of how the virgin idea fits in with Astarte, who was the goddess of sexual love.
The Sumerians, whose goddess Ishtar was, had a 12 month calendar with around 30 days in each month. The Ishtar services were held once a month at night. Link.
The article you cited claims there was an Ishtar celebration was held “each spring on a Sunday, close to the vernal equinox”. I am unable to find any reference to a spring celebration for Ishtar or any service at all for Ishtar except the monthly one held at night. Perhaps you can come up with an authoritative source and a quote that explicitly supports that claim. And I do mean with credentials as a professional in the field of Mesopotamian mythology studies, not the zillion amateur websites who copy crazy stories from each other.
“the ascension of Christ was changed from 40 days after the time of Passover (as told us in the Bible) to the annual Easter celebration. All this began in paganism, with the Ishtar and Tammuz legend.”
The Christian Easter celebration is about the resurrection, not the ascension.
The ascension of Jesus is mentioned only twice in the NT. The Gospel of Luke has it happen on the day of the resurrection. But Acts, also written by Luke, delays the ascension for 40 days. This is part of the agenda of Acts to address various problematic issues in earlier NT scriptures. Even in Luke. Forty is a number traditionally used in scriptures to designate an important time period, often involving a trial or transformation. In the several Gospels the Apostles are usually depicted as not the brightest candles on the menorah. The 40 days are spent teaching the Apostles to become worthier representatives of Christianity. Acts is chock full of re-do’s like that.
Ishtar is a name for Inanna, the original pre-Sumerian goddess. There is little difference between the two. The mythology of Ishtar influenced the nature of the pre-existing north western Semitic goddess Astarte. The stories about Astarte and Inanna vary somewhat. In Sumerian times (before 2000 BCE) there was the tale of Inanna and Dumuzid (later called Ishtar and Tammuz) but this does not appear in Astarte mythology. Inanna/Ishtar was quite nasty and always conquering the domains of other gods. It was her trying to conquer the realm of the dead, ruled by her sister, that got her into deep trouble. Astarte was not like that.
The article refers to Astarte, Ishtar, Ashtoreth, Cybele, Rhea, Demeter, Ceres, Aphrodite, Venus, Diana, and Freya as other names for a single goddess.
As I have just addressed, Astarte was not the same as Ishtar although likely influenced by Ishtar. Ashtoreth is the actual name of Astarte, which is simply a Greek rendering of the word Ashtoreth not a separate goddess
Cybele (pronounced with a K sound) was a Phrygian goddess. Phrygia was in what is now Turkey. Cybele was the mother of the gods and shared no characteristics with Inanna/Ishtar or Ashtoreth/Astarte. None of those were mothers of anyone much less of the gods. Rhea is the Greek goddess analog to Cybele. Although their stories differ.
Demeter is the Greek goddess of the harvest, sharing no characteristics with Inanna/Ishtar or Ashtoreth/Astarte. Ceres is the Roman equivalent of Demeter.
Aphrodite is the Greek goddess of love, physical and emotional, but otherwise is unlike Inanna/Ishtar or Ashtoreth/Astarte. War, another characteristic of Astarte, in Greek mythology is the province of Ares, a different god. Again, it may be that Aphrodite was influenced by Astarte, although that single shared characteristic does not constitute much of an argument. Venus is simply the Roman equivalent of Aphrodite. The planet Venus was named that by the Romans, who named the known planets after Roman gods. It does not appear that there was any association of the goddess Aphrodite/Venus with the planet before that, although the Inanna etc. group did have that association.
Diana is the Roman goddess of the hunt and of wild creatures, the equivalent of the Greek Artemis. Neither Artemis nor Diana have any connection with Astarte etc.
Freya is associated with love, fertility, sex, lust, beauty, sorcery, gold, war and death. She shares some of her characteristics with Astarte etc. but has her own as well. In addition, some of her characteristics are shared with other gods, in particular war. Freya is a Norse goddess being part of Scandinavian mythology. The stories about Freya do not sound at all like any of the stories about the others in the list supplied in the article. Considering the distance to Scandinavia from Mesopotamia and the absence of any other resemblance between Freya and the others, or much resemblance at all between Norse mythology and any other mythology, I see no connection at all.
All in all, the arguments presented in the article you linked are, to put it simply, wrong.
So the sixth head, following (Gaius) Julius Ceasar was Octavian Augustus?
Who were the first four heads?
Between Augustus Octavian and Titus (who destroyed the temple) there were eight Roman emperors. Who was the seventh head?
Between Titus (79-81AD) and Constantine (306-337) there were 45 Roman emperors. Who was/is the eighth head?
Totally, under the circumstances: (A) happened and (B) also happened does not mean they are causally related?
You got it here ...
Thank you @Miken
There were 7 heads per Revelation 17, with an eighth being one of the 7, who had 10 horns. Per Daniel 7, there were 4 beasts, Rome having large teeth who trampled the previous 3 beasts, those being Babylon, Persia, Macedonia, prior to king to come (Constantine), who was to change the law and the times (Daniel 7). Per Revelation, under a different imagery, the 6th head of the beast was a cumulative of Augustus Caesars thru Titus, which would be equivalent to the 10 horns of Daniel 7. The 5th head of the Revelation imagery would refer to Julius Caesar, with the following 10 Augustus Caesars being the 10 horns of Daniel 7, and the 6th beast of Revelation 17. Claudius would be the 4th horn of the 6th head of Revelation 17.
Thank you. Fair enough. And it is all culminating now in the first part of the 21st century?
Obligatory Wisecrack on my part: Norse mythology shares a number of common things with other mythologies associated with the Indo-european language families, which includes Vedic, Iranian, Scythian, Greek, Roman, Slavic, Celtic and others. There was a kingdom ruled by speakers of an Indo-european language in Syria, some time in the bronze age: the Mitanni. So contact between mesopotamian/levantine and indo-european influenced cultures was and continues to be a thing.
That does not detract from the validity of any of your points. Thanks for the thorough response!
I enjoy following this thread a lot, just can't contribute much.
That passage has always made me wonder. Does it mean to say that the filth of her fornications is the same as the blood of the saints?
(And yes, Crowley took this image and ran with it ...)
My point was that identifying Freya with Astarte is not at all justifiable. According to the linked article discussed above, Astarte is Ishtar under another name. The characteristics of Ishtar and Freya are rather different and the stories told about them are very different. Also, a key element of Ishtar type mythos is the phrase 'queen of heaven' and the association with the planet Venus. Freya is not called the queen of heaven and as far as I can determine the only reference to the planet Venus is in the very odd tale of Aurvandill's Toe, where the planet Venus is the frozen toe of an obscure god thrown into the sky by Thor.
IMHO, there is enough of similarity.
he name Freyja transparently means 'lady, mistress' in Old Norse. Stemming from a feminine form of Proto-Germanic *frawjōn ('lord'), it is cognate with Old Saxon frūa ('lady, mistress') or Old High German frouwa ('lady'; cf. modern German Frau). Freyja is also etymologically close to the name of the god Freyr, meaning 'lord' in Old Norse.
The theonym Freyja is thus considered to have been an epithet in origin, replacing a personal name that is now unattested. As a result, either the original name became entirely taboo or another process occurred in which the goddess is a duplicate or hypostasis of another known goddess.
That happens in Hinduism also. The Mother Goddess is just called Mother (Mata).
Isaac Newton forecast the Har-Magedon for the approximate year of 2060 based on 1260 years past the Roman Catholic church (Trinitarian church) (Babylon) becoming apostate. Per Daniel 7, that would equate time, times, and half a time as being 1260 days/years, and in line with a starting date which I do not actually agree. Although he apparently "identified an evil, apostate system (Babylon) that pure Christians must flee to avoid destruction and the wrath of God". As with Newton's 2nd law, it seems to deviate from absolute surety. The 2nd law deviates at extremely high speeds. Newton's starting point seems to be not only flawed, but very imprecise date wise. My suggestion would no one will know the day or the hour, but they best be ready to roll.
The previously linked article assigned a large number of alleged attributes to Ishtar, most of which turn out to be nonsensical as I have discussed earlier. Other than Freya (commonest spelling) also being the goddess of love and war (among other things) there is no connection between Ishtar and Freya in terms of attributes, alleged or real, or any of the roles they played or stories told about them. Freya, or whatever the original name might have been, is not a synonym for Ishtar. I fail to see any relevant similarity. For that matter, I do not even see how you are providing any support for there being a similarity. All the other alleged clones of Ishtar have different names.
Yes Newton did say that. I don't really know anything. Spirit surrounds and contains and permeates nature. That's all I know. It's the true reality. Scriptures are maps -- the rituals and the words and the prayer books are the shell of the nut, imo.
It's all the same truth, the same heaven. There are the keepers of the flame, for all sorts of different people and nationalities and religions. It is necessary and important that they do that, and that there are such people.
I personally don't see Peter and Paul as worthless shepherd and false prophet, respectively. But I do respect your views and your opinion.
The 2060 date is based on adding 1260 to 800, the date when Pope Leo III crowned Charlemagne Emperor. Although (anti-papist Anglican) Newton refers to this as papal supremacy, the coronation was required in exchange for Charlemagne supporting Leo who had been forced out of Rome. Intervention by the Emperor or other nobility in selection of a Pope continued for hundreds of years, often leading to lengthy periods when there was no Pope until political issues among the French nobles were finally resolved. There was often conflict between Rome and France on who had authority for choosing a Pope. During that period, a dozen Popes were murdered and some others removed from office by those who wanted a re-do. I would hardly call this papal supremacy.
In any case, you called 800 the time when the Roman church became apostate. You have on several occasions I believe referred to the church becoming apostate in the 4th century. You also mention that you do not agree with that 800 starting date. What starting date do you propose?
Newton came up with a variety of dates for the Armageddon, including 2060, 2090, 2132, 2170, 2344, 2370 and 2374, depending on how the prophecies in Daniel 7 get interpreted and the starting events for each interpretation are assumed.
This article claims that other letters of Newton refer to 2060. As I recall this date was used in the sense of ‘not before’ 2060. You likened the spread to Einstein modifying Newtons Second Law. Newton’s Laws are very precise and Newton never indicated there was any spread in them. But in calculating the date of Armageddon, Newton introduces the spread himself
In any case, Newton makes a significant error of methodology. In his letter, Newton assumes that the calendar model Daniel would have used twelve months of 30 days. The only calendar that used 360 days without also having 5 or 6 extra-calendrical days to keep in sync with the seasons was the old Egyptian religious calendar not used for agricultural or other civil purposes. For example, the heliacal rising of Sirius, which typically preceded the flooding of the Nile by about two weeks, took place at the same time in the solar year regardless of the religious date.
Even beyond this, Daniel would have used the Jewish calendar which is not tightly aligned to the solar year. The Jewish calendar uses 12 lunar cycles (354 days) as its basis with an occasional 13th month added (Adar I) to keep long term association with the solar year, specifically to ensure that Pesach is always in solar Spring. The long-term average is the 365.25 day solar year. (Still a touch off, requiring the century rule for an even closer approximation. But let’s not get crazy.) ‘A time, times and a half’ is not 1290 days but a variable number of days depending on where in the solar year cycle the Jewish calendar lies. In long term average, three and a half Jewish years is 1278.375 days, just like three and a half solar years. However, if Daniel meant three and a half years of 12 lunar months, then the number would be 1239 days.
Interesting that you cite Newton in support of your ideas. He was a practitioner of occultism, you know?
Separate names with a comma.