If it were not so, would you still believe?

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by KnowSelf, Feb 11, 2020.

  1. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    I'm not an aethist but I think one might consider that verse to mean: 'God sees the big picture' as opposed to: 'One day of Genesis creation is allowed to be one thousand years, but not a moment more than that.'

    Cheers ...
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2020
  2. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls Staff Member

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    I agree .. I don't think it refers to a literal 1000 years.
    It is pointing out that the way we measure time is from our perspective.
    An infinite G-d sees all .. knows each and every leaf that falls at every moment in time.
     
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  3. Truthseeker9

    Truthseeker9 Active Member

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    Yeah, people misinterpret evidence, but one must use one's own reason, trying to see it as objectively as possible, seeing all evidence with the eye of justice, including scriptural evidence. If one's scripture contradicts what is currently understood in science and history, one has re-interpret the scripture, or find some other way to accommodate the two. For instance, the scripture may be improperly transmitted over time, one may concede that the scripture was revealed according to the common understanding of the time, not according to what the Prophet knew.

    There is also the possibility that what is currently understood in history or science is not the truth, but one can only take that so far.
     
  4. Beautiful

    Beautiful Active Member

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    It depends if one is functioning at the level of thought or at the higher level. As for the relief you felt, that is very nice :) You know you are on the money when you feel lighter, easier, happier, and more fulfilled.
     
  5. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    Can you share some more about how you determine where you are functioning from?

    I may be misunderstanding what you are saying. "I" am functioning at many levels. There's the literal gut level, digesting food, the figurative one of non-intellectual hunches, various emotional levels, the verbalized "stream of consciousness", some kind of observer-critic doing its thing on the sidelines of consciousness... couldn't say where exactly in this multi-level committee "I" am mostly functioning from. But I'm not claiming my experience is universal. How does it work for you?

    (Oh, and I feel lighter, easier etc. with my brain on alcohol. I'm sure this is not what you mean ;) )
     
  6. KnowSelf

    KnowSelf Active Member

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    Today I functioned
     
  7. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Of course, in any dialogue, it's possible that one person's 'higher level' differs from the other's.
     
  8. Beautiful

    Beautiful Active Member

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    hahaha :) At the surface level our patterns of life may appear to be changing, but the essential characteristic of life on which all these changes are based is the level of our consciousness. So, if the level of consciousness increases, the bodily functions' efficiency increases, the thoughts become more efficient, the emotions become more efficient, the hunches become more efficient, the verbalized stream of thought intelectual persuits become more efficient, etc. So, the one thing is; water the root. By watering the root, all the green leaves, the flowers, the branches, the trunk--the whole tree becomes lively and thrives and flourishes and becomes productive and fruitful. Its success lies at the level of the root, of watering the root. This is just like the consciousness. If the consciousness is muddied, naturally the thought is bad, the digestion is bad, etc. So instead of using thought to resolve these problems thought itself has created, and thinking about what to do in every area to solve the problems, just water the root. Raise the level of consciousness, increase purity, and vibrate love and bliss and god consciousness in order to make yourself and your home and the world happy and make a better world. This is at the level of natural law, meaning In Acordance With Nature. If the whole cosmos wasnt vibrating at this frecuency we would not have gone from the Tyrannosaurus rex to Oscar Wilde. The cosmos improves on itself and works in order to achieve higher levels of success. So, if we work with nature, there are no thoughts which one will attach to.

    Water is the basis of life. Water can not be contained in the hands. If it is contained in a bucket, it stagnates, gets bacteria, spreads diseases. Thats because it is not its nature to stagnate; water needs to flow...water is the worlds veins...as it flows it spreads food to all life forms in the water. As Bruce Lee said "be like water."
     
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  9. Beautiful

    Beautiful Active Member

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    By higher level we mean Do's and Don'ts, meaning: what one should do in order to obtain the results one desires (high results, good results, fulfillment.)

    In the life of a child, the high level thing to do is take care of his toy, to play with it and enjoy it, and not to break it.

    In the student's life, higher level means studying and applying one's self, and not being mischevious, disinterested in books, etc.
     
  10. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    Thanks!

    I really look forward to continuing the Ten Grounds Sutra reading project. This seems to be going in that direction.

    Some thoughts I had reading your post:

    Water is an important nutrient for plants, but not the only one. Are you familiar with Liebig's Law of the Minimum? What are your thoughts about parallel "spiritual nutrients" that influence spiritual growth?

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebig's_law_of_the_minimum

    Another thought, about the way we talk about spiritual progress. In our present global culture, progress is inextricably associated with economic growth. I wonder how a less ... capitalist ... exploitative ... narrative of spiritual development would look like, one which does not sound like as much like the advertisement industry's unceasing pitch for more, better, higher, newer consumer products. Maybe we would not even find it attractive, because we are so used to thinking in terms of improvement, growth, expansion?
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2020
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  11. KnowSelf

    KnowSelf Active Member

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    perhaps a higher level is undefined, if higher means more adaptable as opposed to having pure intellect. it seems the ability to adapt for survival of the species would rank higher than ;pure intellect
     
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  12. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    This could be the whole knife edge?
     
  13. KnowSelf

    KnowSelf Active Member

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    Perhaps to be more specific the age of the earth doesn’t matter to me
     
  14. KnowSelf

    KnowSelf Active Member

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    I don’t understand what you mean?
     
  15. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    I meant the pull of nature vs the call of spirit? Something like that?
     
  16. KnowSelf

    KnowSelf Active Member

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    The pull of nature affects us the moment we are physically born, The call of spirit invites us to Him
     
  17. Beautiful

    Beautiful Active Member

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    :)

    Being the gardener of a North facing garden, I have come to know this law experientially :( as for your second question; curiosity, courage, and audacity. Feel free to add others, thats all I can think of.

    I dont know. That I know of spiritual development (or whatever name we give it) is very un mainstream--based on ascetisism and self reliance and dropping all one's views, a road very few will go down. As for more happiness, more bliss, more enjoyment, I dont see how anyone could not wish that for their children. I guess the difference is in if its good advertisement (this is truly good for you and is for your well being) or fake advertisment (which makes you believe its important and desireable but really is just a piece of plastic.)

    If you dont move foward you are either standing still or going backwards.

    Maybe its a matter of my life nowadays...cause I certainly didnt think like this before all the cosmic stuff happened to me, but...the greatest joy in my life nowadays is the growth from day to day. It just seems to get faster and faster. And I dont mean this as a humble bragging. I'm just baffled by whats possible in the realms of the mind. I'm hardly ever the same person that went to bed. I wake up healthier, stronger, faster, sharper, calmer, wiser...and I see this as good, because it feels good, it feels like a good path to be on; getting better each day, for then even when one gets old and declines, still the mind can stay fresh, grow wiser, get better and better..so thats where I am coming from :) it seems to coincide with nature, cause trees and plants and animals only stop growing when they die. And each seed or embryo inherits the parents traits and continues on a path of further growth, building on the succesful traits of the parents and further refining them.

    What do you feel? Does this make sense?
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
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  18. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    Plenty of advertisement for asceticism in the world. Goodies are promised. Fruit! Harvest seven times seventy!! Rewards in heaven!!!

    Spiritual materialism is rampant in ascetic circles. It makes sense: the ascetic has nothing to lose, but much to gain.

    I can think of a few more: Sideways? Up? Down? Diagonally? In Circles? Many directions besides the forward!!!! we are being so loudly and continually commanded.

    Sounds just like the first quarter revenue forecasts. Growth from day to day.

    All that is wonderful, and I cheer you on. But is that it? "(S)he who dies with the most toys, wins"? That is spiritual growth?

    It makes sense, and I feel this is all very excellent.

    I just don't think it is particularly nourishing in a non-material sense.

    (edited): If the narrative of forward progress is taken out of the spiritual quest, can we even make sense of what is left?
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
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  19. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    Nice! I would add calm, and clarity.
     
  20. Beautiful

    Beautiful Active Member

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    @Cino

    You dont think it is nourishing to be compassionate in a non material sense? How is being compassionate material?

    To answer the question; what you are calling material and striving is merley sitting down by yourself and being undistracted from the concentration of present awareness. Calmly breathing. Not hurting anyone, not thinking wrong, not doing wrong, not feeling wrong, etc. How is sitting down alone a materialist thing?

    When we speak of the spiritual life we are talking about all these peaceful qualities like goodness and compassion which make the world a better place.

    The spiritual path, or simply put, the correct living path, is about connecting with god. To even approach that you have to know how to live, how to use your body, how to think, how to breathe, how to eat and drink, etc. This is not even spiritual, its just basic instructions on how to live; dont hit a tiger on the head cause it will bite back, dont put the fork in the plug; dont kill, dont rape, dont rob, dont take whats not given, dont judge, forgive, be pure hearted, virtue...very basic, this is just basic Knowledge (knowledge meaning Knowledge of Life, there is no other knowledge with a capital k)

    Then, after this 8 fold path, this good living, then one is pure and further connects with god. But its not something that can be talked about, because the path teaches you things, just like there are things you didnt know as a boy that now as an adult you know because life has taught you. It was not a decision "I will become an adult and grow" its just the nature of things, just like impermanence is the nature of things. Things grow with the passing of time. You GROW old. As you said, you dont find X nourishing. If you desire nourishment, the meaning of the word nourishment is
    the food or other substances necessary for growth, health, and good condition.



    Life is progress, as each day of your life builds on the previous day. If anyone wants to live by going round in circles, or down, or backwards, or up and down endlessly, she is free to do as she wishes, no one is commanding anyone in this world at all, in fact very few give a helping hand to the fallen in this world. The heroin addict saves himself, he helps himself. You do a great disservice by telling the heroin addict that he is a spiritual materialist because he wants to do better with his life. Let him save himself, encourage his restraining of the senses, give him the knowledge that the agregates are not the heart, that in the heart "The Kingdom of Heaven" lies.

    To the same extent, we are conditioned, we are disconnected from nature, from reality, and we believe our senses are our lives. We confuse the agregates with the reality. Yet each day we can decide weither to do good or ill. The heroin addict decides weither he takes that whiff of the china white or if he restrains his senses and does not run away from himself by filling his senses.

    Each day we are confronted with suffering and pleasure. We chose how we react to these.

    We can hurt people or do them good.
     

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