@Contrarian Deist mentioned a few LHP traditions that descended directly, or took some inspiration from, Aleister Crowley's Thelema. I'm interested in tracing some of these relations. How much of Thelema is there in LaVey's Satanism? Is the Fraternitas Saturni more on the Thelemic or Satanist side of things? What about the Temple of Set?
It seems that Anton LaVey adapted John Dee's Enochian material for use by the Church of Satan. This would be a common element with Thelema, but not a lineal descendent. I would be interested in more knowledgeable people filling in more of the detail here.
Lavey inherited Crowleys penchant for *shocking the rubes* and eccentricity(as did all forms of LHP religions today) but other than that thers is very little direct Crowley or Thelema influence in Laveys Satanism, Lavey actually mocked Crowley and Thelema as his satanism was and is explicitly LHP, whereas as Crowley and Thelema are RHP and about uniting with God/the divine. Thelema is technically RHP , but Crowley in his lifestyle and his views and by extension Thelema could be said to be kinda Middle Pillar path...slot of unification of opposites ideas, principles, values, and ritual practices. But yeah technically RHP, and Lavey didn't much like Crowley or Thelema. Temple of Set/Setianism, has a little influence from Crowley/Thelema, but only a little. Less hostile to both than Lavey and his satanism are. Michael Aquino was an early member of the CoS but felt it was lacking and thus started the ToS and he and lavey(and his church)had a falling out, though Aquino still always maintained Lavey had an infernal mandate from Set to start the CoS, was in a sense chosen...though didn't fully and properly fulfill the mandate. Luciferianism(modern/symbolic, and neo gnostic luciferianism at least) HIGHLY inspired and influenced by Crowley and Thelema...but also almost in equal measure by alot of other influences too. But certainly much moreso than Laveyan Satanism or Aquinos Setianism were/are. Neo gnostic luciferianism is also heavily inspired by a early 20th century Danish occultist named Carl William Hansen(pen name Ben Kadosh). Luciferianism is particularly eclectic and varied in its influences and inspirations. There are several other forms of satanism and various subsects, some more influenced and inspired by Crowley and Thelema, some less so(most to one degree or another though), then there is chaotism...which has LHP and RHP variants...and middle pillar...sons forms of which and many followers/practicioners very influenced by Crowley and Thelema, some less so(Chaotism is particularly influenced by Austin Osman Spare, Peter Carroll and others though). Crowley and Thelema are a interesting thing. He and it basically became the Christ figure or the new replacement of Judao/christianity. As those two kinda influenced islam, sikhism, and a host of others. Crowley and Thelema became that for the modern era and the future...inspiring and influenced pretty much every modern occult and neo pagan religion both RHP and LHP. Even Wicca was directly influenced by Crowley and Thelema as its main founder Gerald Gardner was a student of Crowleys and I believe directly studied under him and had a little correspondence with him. He directly took from Thelema many of his wiccan beliefs...including the Wiccan Rede which is basically a more succinct, simplistic, rehash of Crowleys Thelemite dictum do what though wilt whole of law...love is law love under will...every man and woman is a star(in wicca shortened to *an it harm none do what though wilt*) Well Crowley/Thelema as well as Madame Helena Blavatsky and her religion/philosophy Theosophy(which particularly inspired and influenced most modern new age religions and spiritualism). These two have as much shared influence and inspiration acrossed the board on a large number of new modern religions that are becoming the major leading religio-spiritual-philosophical trends of the coming future centuries. Just as Judaism influenced Christianity which both of these did islam and islam...along with hinduism inspired Sikhism. Which are most of the world's biggest religions(not counting the far eastern ones of course...buddhism, taoism, confucianism. But interestingly there is a hypothesis...or opinion that in Yeshuas/christ's years between age 12 and his early 30s when he began his ministry...about which the gospels say nothing of his life, that he travelled and learned the mysteries or mystery school traditions ideas from adepts of them...including and particularly Buddhism from Buddhist adepts...hence Buddhism heavily influenced Christianity as judaism did, and hence vicariously later islam and sikhism, Alot if cross breeding of ideas and influences...anyways sorry gettingba little off topic here)...and Blavatsky/Theosophy and Crowley/Thelema are pretty much the modern equivalents of this...the founders of a new breed of future religions that will influence many religions to come(and in fact...already have. Theosophy primarily new age and spiritualist ones, but Crowley/Thelema many occult and neo pagan ones...both RHP and LHP).
As for Fraternitas Saturni, I'm unsure. I'm aware of them, but I've actually never really dug into them much. Something I shall have to do.
And both satanism and luciferianism are better spoken of as SatanismS and LuciferianismS , as there are a number different subtypes of each(and various subsects within each). And there are theistic(most being polytheistic ...mostky archetypal polytheistic but also a few more literal, and some pantheistic/panentheistic) as well as nontheistic version(atheist/agnostic, and deistic), some are very religious and ritualistic and magick oriented, some are mostly philosophical and/or symbolical. Very eclectic and complex set of religions/philosophies. Alot of various influences and inspirations, some distinctions between and also some overlap in some cases. And while technically LHP, some come closer to being middle pillar paths emphasizing unification of opposites(much like Crowley/Thelema...though it is technically RHP). I personally am more drawn to middle pillar philosophies and occult studies these days(though I've rejected all *religions* and reliance upon, obsession with, or fascination with mythology and also with ritual or magickal occult practice...I once loved mythology and toyed with magickal occult ritual practices...though and in a symbolic sense I can still understand the appeal to each but I have personally rejected each in my own life, I'm more just a rational mystic now)...as being a PanDeist I love the idea of unification of opposites...which I believe leads to understanding the nature and will of God/the divine and the nature and purpose of creation/cosmos/universe or multiverse(if there be such a thing)/life(individual and collective)/existence.
In a way I do think Crowley by calling himself "the most evil man in the world" was more into 'shocking the rubes' and shaking up the Victorian mentality -- as did Byron -- than any of the sort of truly satanistic stuff propagated by LeVey, whose Satanic Bible contains a full text of the black mass, with inverted crucifix and descration of the consecrated host etc, I believe? But my knowledge is thin.
I don't have a lot of knowledge of Fraterrits Saturni, but it did function & was structured as the degree work of Freemasinry - 32/33 degree Scottish rite style I believe. Rudolph Steiner (big Rosicrucian guy) was involved early on, but left the Lodge. There are new FS groups now - some have deviated from the original teachings.
Crowley was trying to gain the 'knowledge and conversation with his Holy Guardian Angel.' His aim was God/good, although his means were unconventional, especially for his time. Imo But real satanism isn't pretty. Not at all. Satan is nasty: "A liar and the father of it." God's power to guide me, God's might to uphold me. God's wisdom to teach me, God's eye to watch over me. God's ear to hear me, God's word to give me speech, God's hand to guide me, God's way before me, God's shield to shelter me. God's host to secure me, against the snares of demons, against the seductions of vices, against the lusts of nature, against everyone who meditate injury to me, whether far or near, with a few or with many ... Christ be with me. Christ before me, Christ behind me; Christ within me, Christ beneath me; Christ above me, Christ at my right hand, Christ at my left. Christ in the fort, Christ in the chariot seat, Christ on the ship deck. Christ in the heart of everyone who thinks of me, Christ in the mouth of everyone who speaks of me. Christ in every eye that sees me. Christ in every ear that hears me -- From St Patrick's Breastplate
Thank you! After spending 6 years in a Luciferian order, this thread has shown me how narrow my knowledge of the different Western Occultisms really is! Coming from a Buddhist perspective, I've always thought that Uncle Al was crazy and Madame Blavatski was off her rocker! I guess it's back to Buddhism for me!
Crowley borrowed a lot from Buddhism, Theravada in particular. One of his close friends was the first Westerner to ordain as a Theravada Buddhist Monk, in Burma. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Henry_Allan_Bennett
Many prominent western occultists wound up going to Buddhism, including Anton LaVey's daughter, Zeena Schreck.
Chaos Magic, as formulated by Carroll, is not a path to any salvation. A quote from Carroll of the early 2000s expresses his wish to "strangle the last astrologer with the guts of the last spiritual master" (From his book PsyberMagick: Advanced Ideas in Chaos Magick). In fact, Carroll's take on magic is very utilitarian and, in a way, materialistic. The unification of opposites, if I understand Crowley correctly, is precisely what he meant by "Love" (as in "Love under Will"). I didn't know that. Interesting! Well, Crowley himself was not too fond of what his angel had to say (he struggled with the contents of "The Book of the Law", which he claimed was revealed to him by his angel). So maybe he and his angel were a good match
Crowley never called himself the most evil man in the world. The press and the traditional religionists did that. He challenged their accusations, but sometimes he played along to poke fun at their hysteria, hypocrisy, and slanderous ways. He did, however, refer to himself from early on as the great beast 666. But...there were complicated reasons behind this and also nuancec meanings behind his use of the label and reference to those symbols(it started when his hardcore fundamentalist mother called him a beast or the great beast while he was growing up)....his adoption of the label when he grew up was due partly to his bitterness at his mother's/parents abuse and accusations as the so-called *Christians* they claimed to be. But it also was much more than this, he adopted it as an adult especially for symbolic purposes, partly related to blaspheming orthodox fundamentalist christianity.though not soley(and he did say *I never really hated god or christ, but the god and christ of the people I hated*). His usage of- The great beast 666..or *to mega therion*...has a much deeper set of symbolic meanings behind it that is more related to other factors than simply ticking off Christians, lol! Alot of comparitive reliigion/mythology, numerology(and the various meanings of the number...outside the Christian book of revelations meaning) and linguistics/semantics, and other factors went into his adoption of the label and that number As for Laveys bible. It doesn't have any inverted crosses. In fact he and his church recognized early on that the inverted cross is just either a just a juvenile inverted Christian thing...OR more accurately comes from actual pro Christian iconography...ie, because Peter demanded to be crucified upside down....it symbolizes humble obedience to christ. No...Lavey used a alchemical cross like symbol( I cant remember the name of the symbol specifically at the moment)... but not an inverted cross. As for black mass, yes. But also various other rituals, mostly devised by himself...not directly taken from say the black mass alledged in the middle ages by the Christians in things like the malleus malefericium or something. And they also contain a diabolisized version of the enochian keys. But half of his bible otherwise consists of a number of chapters or...essays on his own thoughts on....various things, and the first book in it *the book of satan* was pretty much pilfered word for word plagiarized *might is right* by Ragnar Redbeard(which originally he didn't even mention this fact and tried to pass the writing off as his own, until it was uncovered that it wasn't...then he and the CoS acknowledged it).
Correct, it wasn't. They didn't have surnames. I used Yeshua/christ(with the / inbetween to point out it's not his surname but a title applied to Yeshua).
They were, lol! In some senses(but then....who isnt, lol!). But they both were also EXTREMELY brilliant intellectually and mystically and Extremely learned. Sometimes...crazy and brilliant/genius are a very fine line P.S. May I ask what Luciferian order you were in for that six years?
Depends what ones definition of *real satanism* is. Alot of people seem to think it's what actual satanists refer to pejoratively as reverse christianity/reverse Christian devil worship...which isnt real satanism but as the satanists say reverse christianity or reverse Christian/muslims,/ jewish/etc *devil worship*(and frankly such a thing only exists with confused teenagers...temporarily, or...amongst certain elites...particularly those in yales skull and bones society), The actual...various types and sects of real satanists ...for all their heresy hunting on each other and disagreements...virtually all of them agree on this one thing...reverse Christian devil worship is NOT *real satanism* but *reverse christianity/revealed religion*
I like Zeena. She has also been open about how her father was a con man and a bit abusive(not in the sense or degree most abrahamic would assume, he was mostly neglectful of his kids but there was some occasional minor to moderate abuse he dished out...according her anyways, her sister Karla hasn't admitted to such...as much..and still respects her daddy. But Zeena paid a heavier price than Karla in life...being the first public satanic baptism of a child and was thrust into the limelight much more by her father to defend the religion and the family in public...for which he showed very little gratitude to her for). She's also supernaturally beautiful and has uncharacteristic honesty that most of her family doesn't. And is incredibly soft spoken and calm and polite in her demeanor Brilliant woman who's been on a fantastically unique journey in life. Are her and Nicholas still married? I thought I heard they split up?
