Thelema and its LHP descendants

Contrarian Deist said:
As for Fraternitas Saturni, I'm unsure. I'm aware of them, but I've actually never really dug into them much. Something I shall have to do.
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Herald of the Dawn adopted at least a couple of teachings from Fraternitas Saturni: The Primacy of Darkness and the creation of an Egregore for the Order.
 
Seattle.
I see. Thanks. I have more research to do

RJM and Cino.
Me too.
I've a fascination w/this subject matter. And while I consider myself a bit of an expert on it, there is obviously more to learn on it.
It's a very complex subject and set of beliefs.
 
In regards the video you shared.
I'm only part way through, so may have some more thoughts or questions after I finish it.
But for now. What do you think of the idea of middle path luciferianism which is much more like Thelema and neo-gnostic ideas of both individuation or godhood of the self, seeking to be an eternal being(as eternal as possible, likelyhood is that this can be achieved for an extended period of time in the astral/afterlife/etc, but that it is also equally as likely that this will or can be attained for only so long...that the individual soul will eventually whether they like it or not...be reabsorbed back into the ain soph/ouroboros/brahman/monad/divine mind....God, that it is wise to just accept this and while being autotheistic or separate for a time...at the same time to nonetheless have a reverence for the one as well simultaneously....middle path.
Accept that the individuated being...or thought/synapse or cell of the One divine mind/being has a long yet finite existence as such and will despite their desire to be eternally individuate will eventually become part of the one mind/being again and to just accept this?)
When I was a luciferian....I was a deistic/PanDeistic one, and at the time(I've dropped the label and practice of luciferianism since) I was of this mindset myself.
I believed in these core principles of LHP individuation and autotheism and seeking to be as afterlife/astral/soul-ar eternal as possible but nonetheless revered the one(divine mind/God/etc) from which we all, it all has been emanated from(or within) and it is wisest to just accept its reality, its vastness and greatness, and that each individual thought/synapse/cell of which each of us IS if it...each will inevitably be reintegrated as part of the one mind, to accept it and even revere it.
This is the secret fact and foreknowledge and wisdom that Prometheus(lucifer, enki, etc) juggles and the secret to Zeus's(jehovah/etc)temporary throne which Prometheus(lucifer/etc) holds that zeus(jehovah/etc) isnt aware of....or willing to accept.

I still hold the same view actually. Just have dropped the label, mytho-poetic reliance or worship of myths, and practices(ritual, ritual magick) as simply a PanDeist that I am now(was then, likely will always be).

I think it is possible, even w/in luciferian philosophy to be middle pillar like this and to accept or appreciate both aspects. To unify opposites...which is after all the true nature and will of the Divine source/creator-emanator/ain-soph/PHI/cosmocrator/brahman/Divine mind/God(whatever descriptor/label/title one chooses to use or favor) and true nature and purpose of the creation-emanation/cosmos-universe/existance/matter and subtle matter-astral or soul-ar or metaphysical/life ..individual and collective
The unification of all opposites. The magnum opus or great work.

Your thoughts? And do you think there are any subtypes of Luciferianism or sects of it that accept or agree with these paradigms/ideas?
In my experience in the years I was luciferian, and in my research I do think so...I'm fairly certain the more Thelema influenced orders/orgs/sects/types of luciferianism...such as say neo-gnostic luciferianism/neo luciferian church...and a fea others are more or less of these ideas/values/principles.
I think the purpose of luciferianism(and Thelema too) is to evolve past the false dualism/binary of many forms of satanism/chaotism and on the other hand RHP occultisms of LHP vs RHP....immediate absorption into God vs complete rejection of God(and absolute desire to be separate forever from it and to reject and despise it).
Luciferianism I would say is centrist/middle pillar leaning left, Thelema is centrist/middle pillar leaning right, in occult terms(I use centrist...leaning left/right ...coming from the sociopolitical...as a analogy for occult left/right/center here).

Thoughts?
 
@Contrarian Deist The separation of the subjective from the objective is paramount, imo. When you mistake the subjective for the objective, that is called delusion. ;)
I suppose one might picture the middle pillar as all sentient beings (possessing a subjective mind) are vulnerable to delusion (mistaking the subjective for the objective) due to their sentience. However, the same mechanism that makes sentient beings vulnerable to delusion is also the same mechanism by which sentient beings can free themselves from delusion. One can recognize a being as sentient by their capacity for delusion. To try to void this duality is to void one's sentience. ;)

I'm a Buddhist. Resisting Mara is a major goal. Escaping samsara is a major goal. Overcoming delusion is a major goal. LHP is my way.

Your mileage may vary.
 
seattlegal said:
I'm a Buddhist. Resisting Mara is a major goal. Escaping samsara is a major goal. Overcoming delusion is a major goal. LHP is my way.
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To my understanding, the term "LHP" has different connotations in Eastern and Western traditions.

In Eastern ones, it essentialy means "Trantra", I believe, and is a path to salvation/enlightenment/release.

In Western ones, it has Gnostic connotations of taking sides, against the forces of the status quo, in a highly dualistic world-view.

Of course, in both cases, transgressive practices and imagery are employed to break free, "out of the box", as it were.

Is that a fair understanding of mine?
 
Cino said:
To my understanding, the term "LHP" has different connotations in Eastern and Western traditions.

In Eastern ones, it essentialy means "Trantra", I believe, and is a path to salvation/enlightenment/release.

In Western ones, it has Gnostic connotations of taking sides, against the forces of the status quo, in a highly dualistic world-view.

Of course, in both cases, transgressive practices and imagery are employed to break free, "out of the box", as it were.

Is that a fair understanding of mine?
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This is a Thelema thread, so let's take a look at what crazy Uncle Al had to say about it in chapter XII of Magick Without Tears:
Chapter XII: The Left-Hand Path—"The Black Brothers" - Magick Without Tears - The Libri of Aleister Crowley - Hermetic Library


"For the decision which determines the catastrophe confronts only the Adeptus Exemptus 7○ = 4□. Until that grade is reached, and that very fully indeed, with all the buttons properly sewed on, one is not capable of understanding what is meant by the Abyss. Unless “all you have and all you are” is identical with the Universe, its annihilation would leave a surplus."

​
Uncle Al states that those becoming a "Babe of the Abyss" is the Great White Way of the Right Hand Path. You join with the Universe. The Black Brothers of the Left Hand Path want to remain separate from it, and "fail" in crossing the abyss in his delusional eyes. ;)

Uncle Al had great difficulty with Choronzon, the demon of the Abyss and of delusion--demonstrating that he never crossed the abyss and failed by his own standards. His insistence on dissolving the ego (The Reality Principle of Freud) left him defenseless in his battle with Choronzon--the demon of delusion and of the Abyss.
 
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seattlegal said:
Uncle Al had great difficulty with Choronzon, the demon of the Abyss and of delusion--demonstrating that he never crossed the abyss and failed by his own standards. His insistence on dissolving the ego (The Reality Principle of Freud) left him defenseless in his battle with Choronzon--the demon of delusion and of the Abyss.
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Who knows. I don't think he was a Freudian. Interesting thought about his losing touch with reality!

He did claim the title Master of the Temple, and later, Ipsissimus, which means he considered himself to have crossed the abyss and so on. As always with such highly subjective experiences, there is not much an outsider can say about it. This is where I'm on the materialist side of the idealism/materialism spectrum: Does a subjective experience have any bearing on the life of a person and those around them? Then it may have some degree of reality. (There is no ideology without actors). He did have an impact, post 1909. Hard to tell whether this would have been different had he not done the Enochian Scrying sessions, where he encountered Choronzon.

Did the Buddha's experience at Uruvela sitting on the roots of the Tree of Awakening have an impact? Did he have to struggle with his own demons, Death in particular? Did he let go of his attachment to his ego, in a sense, not the Freudian sense? The Buddha seems to have been a nicer person than Crowley, going by reports, though there is a misogyist undercurrent is some of his discourses, again, not unlike Crowley.

Also, the Buddha's teachings gave rise to LHP traditions in their own right.

Hope my ramblings were not too off-topic here.
 
Cino said:
Who knows. I don't think he was a Freudian. Interesting thought about his losing touch with reality!

He did claim the title Master of the Temple, and later, Ipsissimus, which means he considered himself to have crossed the abyss and so on. As always with such highly subjective experiences, there is not much an outsider can say about it. This is where I'm on the materialist side of the idealism/materialism spectrum: Does a subjective experience have any bearing on the life of a person and those around them?
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I would say yes, a subjective experience can produce observable changes in a person's behavior and mental state. If it didn't, we would not be able to diagnose things like PTSD.

Then it may have some degree of reality. (There is no ideology without actors). He did have an impact, post 1909. Hard to tell whether this would have been different had he not done the Enochian Scrying sessions, where he encountered Choronzon.
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It doesn't take much reading to recognize that Crowley had some mental problems. It could have been his cocaine addiction, as well.

Did the Buddha's experience at Uruvela sitting on the roots of the Tree of Awakening have an impact? Did he have to struggle with his own demons, Death in particular?
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Not death. He did have a relationship with Sakka, the King of the Devas (associated with Indra.) He taught the Buddhdharma to Sakka. (I associate Sakka with an aspect of Buddha's psyche, perhaps something like Crowleys HGA.

Did he let go of his attachment to his ego, in a sense, not the Freudian sense?
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He did tell Mucilinda (whom I associate with ID aspects) that being freed from the conceit "I am" to be more desirable than what Mucilinda was tempting him with.

Regarding Buddha's teachings and Id, Superego, and Ego:
The first words of Buddha's first sermon upon his awakening:
"There are these two extremes that are not to be indulged in by one who has gone forth. Which two? That which is devoted to sensual pleasure with reference to sensual objects: base, vulgar, common, ignoble, unprofitable; and that which is devoted to self-affliction: painful, ignoble, unprofitable. Avoiding both of these extremes, the middle way realized by the Tathagata — producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding.

This is what I see:

There are these two extremes that are not to be indulged in by one who has gone forth. Which two?
  • That which is devoted to sensual pleasure with reference to sensual objects: base, vulgar, common, ignoble, unprofitable

    (I see this as devotion to the pleasure principle of the id, which can have a tendency to tempt the ego.)

  • and that which is devoted to self-affliction: painful, ignoble, unprofitable.


    (I see this as devotion to the perfecting principle of the superego--which has a tendency to try to punish ego.)

  • Avoiding both of these extremes, the middle way realized by the Tathagata — producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding.

    (See this as developing the reality principle of the ego, which mitigates between the id and the superego. The superego does love to punish the ego, and the id loves to tempt the ego, though.)


The Buddha seems to have been a nicer person than Crowley, going by reports, though there is a misogyist undercurrent is some of his discourses, again, not unlike Crowley.
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Yeah, someone had to point out to Buddha in a rational manner that if devas, asuras, yakis, or any other sentient being could learn the Buddhadharma, then so could women. (If not, then women were not sentient beings.)

Also, the Buddha's teachings gave rise to LHP traditions in their own right.
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Buddha was a Sadhu before his awakening, and did all the nastika stuff like meditating over decaying bodies, extreme austerities, and eating human flesh. He didn't awaken until he broke some of the proscribed austerities, like accepting food from a woman during his long meditation under the Bodhi tree.

Hope my ramblings were not too off-topic here.
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I'm not complaining.​
 
Cino said:
To my understanding, the term "LHP" has different connotations in Eastern and Western traditions.

In Eastern ones, it essentialy means "Trantra", I believe, and is a path to salvation/enlightenment/release.

In Western ones, it has Gnostic connotations of taking sides, against the forces of the status quo, in a highly dualistic world-view.

Of course, in both cases, transgressive practices and imagery are employed to break free, "out of the box", as it were.

Is that a fair understanding of mine?
Click to expand...

I like what the reverend John Allee(Lord Egan)EGAN)-R.I.P(whom like myself was a Deist....in his case Pan-en-Deism. Whom I personally had a number of online personal conversations with him and we were facebook friends, and he is one of my favorite thinkers)., founder of the FCoS(first church of satan) and ASTra(Allee shadow tradition)...which he founded with his wife Lillee( wiccan) said about the LHP and RHP. He took the taoist approach to it. LHP being identical to the YIN if the yin/yang(symbolizing passivity/inaction/Being/receptiveness to all things and understanding...open like the legs of the mother whore Babalon...please excuse the reference...it seems on the surface to be vulgarity...but under the surface that's not what it means) and RHP YANG(action/force/becoming and dooing). Basically one has to first embrace those LHP principles to learn...and then put what they learned into wise action.
LHP and RHP United(yin and yang United in the one glyph/symbol)...middle pillar/path....unification of opposites....wisdom...divinity.
This is the eastern interpretation of the LHP and RHP I believe.

I accept the western interpretations as well as being equally valid as the above for different contexts, all have their place. I think wisdom is integrating and uniting both...all ideas of what they both mean....and then rising above/transcending ALL of em.

Similarly to how one integrates and unifies the opposites of left wing and right wing sociopolitically to transcend eaches false, misleading binaries and truly understand sociopolitical knowledge and wisdom.

In both cases, it's like was written by Michael W. Ford and Jacob No(and Jeremy Crowe, all 3 of whom I had indirect online interactions with and facebook friendships with and was associated with the GCoL for a time, I particularly liked Jeremy). In the GCoL(greater church of Lucifer) in its handbook *Wisdom of Eosphorus*- *there cannot be a right wing or a left wing, for each wing that attempts to flap at different vibrations will essentially be tearing the body apart. Each wing has to beat at the same rhythm in order to fly into progression*(and I might add, then the bird plummets into the ground in a gory death).
Now they, unfortunately didn't also use this burd wing analogy for LHP vs RHP, but I think it equally applies in that binary as well, not just in reference to sociopolitical, but to the philosophical and/or spiritual/metaphysical/etc(one should include magick and/or ritual in that if they believe in those...and in regards the divine/God and the issue of separation from vs unification with it). They failed to see what John Allee had understood, and what Crowley understood, and what so many others understood. But their bird wing analogy is brilliant and wise in its simplicity for the sociopolitical left vs right wing. Pity they didn't see its application in referring to left hand path wing vs right hand path wing...and choose in that to be dogmatic stickers for left hand path idealogueism.

It all comes down to unification of opposites in every way and at every level. That IS the magnum opus. That IS God/the divine, and it IS the purpose of every thing and one that exists...as an emanated extension of the divine/God.
Separation is good and possible...for a time...and into the afterlife/astral( I believe..probable) but it naturally can only last for so long. Wisdom is accepting that eventually it will end and all will be integrated back into the one...and to just accept the inevitability and marvel at the divines/Gods greatness. Does this mean total dissolution of the self into the one at that time? Perhaps, one could percieve it that way. But an equal perception is that each thing and every one....simply becomes a individual thought/synapse/memory/dream avatar , and collectives thought complexes/groups of synapses/memoriez....as an analogy...in the mind of God eternally.
 
And, I think Crowley had the same understanding or a similar view of it. As did Blavatsk
As did Sidhartha(Buddha), Even Yeshua(Christ), And I think all the ascended masters and great wise men/women and philosophers.
It's, I believe, the ultimate attainment. But....understanding it is not neccaserily the same as being able to...in this life...fully LIVE it/live up to it w/out difficult. Our corporeal bodies and our physical brains make that very difficult...some live up to it better than others, no one in this life or this form lives nor can live perfectly up to it.
 
Contrarian Deist said:
I like what the reverend John Allee(Lord Egan)EGAN)-R.I.P(whom like myself was a Deist....in his case Pan-en-Deism. Whom I personally had a number of online personal conversations with him and we were facebook friends, and he is one of my favorite thinkers)., founder of the FCoS(first church of satan) and ASTra(Allee shadow tradition)...which he founded with his wife Lillee( wiccan) said about the LHP and RHP. He took the taoist approach to it. LHP being identical to the YIN if the yin/yang(symbolizing passivity/inaction/Being/receptiveness to all things and understanding...open like the legs of the mother whore Babalon...please excuse the reference...it seems on the surface to be vulgarity...but under the surface that's not what it means) and RHP YANG(action/force/becoming and dooing). Basically one has to first embrace those LHP principles to learn...and then put what they learned into wise action.
LHP and RHP United(yin and yang United in the one glyph/symbol)...middle pillar/path....unification of opposites....wisdom...divinity.
This is the eastern interpretation of the LHP and RHP I believe.
Click to expand...
Yes, in Taoism the Wise Councellor (yin) is stationed to the left of the ruler, and the Strong General (yang) is stationed on the right of the ruler.
Having to resort to the right hand (force) is to be used as a last resort with mourning of a funeral and is considered to be a failure.
 
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However I do not think yin and yang are meant as an analogy for good and evil. Yang is male, Yin is female. Yang is fire, Yin is water.

In nature, darkness is the lack of light, not the opposite of light. Darkness is total in a cave in the earth where no light can enter. But one candle lights the darkness, and the light of ten million suns is not a totality of light. Is there a totality of darkness, that can overpower light?

IMO this understanding is missing from belief systems that position good and evil as equal and opposite?

The Earlier Heaven or Primal (spirit) arrangement of trigrams has the yin/yang trigrams in vertical polarity, with fire/water in horizontal polarity, and the other trigrams also in polarity.

In the Later Heaven or Inner World (nature) arrangement, fire/water replace yin/yang as the vertical polarity, as spirit manifests in nature, and the other trigrams are no longer in polarity to one another.

the-2-heavens-of-the-i-ching-trigrams.jpg
 
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RJM Corbet said:
However I do not think yin and yang are meant as an analogy for good and evil. Yang is male, Yin is female. Yang is fire, Yin is water.

In nature, darkness is the lack of light, not the opposite of light. Darkness is total in a cave in the earth where no light can enter. But one candle lights the darkness, and the light of ten million suns is not a totality of light. Is there a totality of darkness, that can overpower light?

IMO this understanding is missing from belief systems that position good and evil as equal and opposite?

The Earlier Heaven or Primal (spirit) arrangement of trigrams has the yin/yang trigrams in vertical polarity, with fire/water in horizontal polarity, and the other trigrams also in polarity.

In the Later Heaven or Inner World (nature) arrangement, fire/water replace yin/yang as the vertical polarity, as spirit manifests in nature, and the other trigrams are no longer in polarity to one another.

the-2-heavens-of-the-i-ching-trigrams.jpg
Click to expand...
Check out Crowley's take on the above Bagua. ;)
 
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