Is Islam a myth?

RJM

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Religion by its very nature is not rational, that is where the atheist wins this argument.
Which is fine and no one cares, until we start trying to 'edcate' everyone else to believe the same as we do ...
 

muhammad_isa

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Religion by its very nature is not rational, that is where the atheist wins this argument.

What utter nonsense :)
It is not irrational to believe in God. One who is responsible for all we see.
Billions of people believe it. Islam & Christianity are the most popular beliefs.
 

muhammad_isa

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So am I going to have to grow a long beard before the mosque allows me in, and wrap my women in black from neck to ankle
...
Which is fine and no one cares, until we start trying to 'edcate' everyone else to believe the same as we do ...

The Qur'an makes it very clear. There should be no compulsion in religion.

You remind me of the "pink floyd" track..

We don't need no education
We don't need no thought control
No dark sarcasm in the classroom
Teacher, leave them kids alone
- Another Brick in the Wall -

Civilisation is built on education. This worldly life will never be perfect.
You will never please everybody.
You come across as disliking Muslim culture. What you may like or dislike has no bearing on truth.
 

juantoo3

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There has been an attempt for some time now to demonstrate that Islam is a rational faith, not so, or at least no more so than Christianity. Islam is only rational within the self-referential confines of its own framework, outside of that framework it is NOT rational. Christianity suffers the same problem. Hence religion by its nature is not rational, and any appeal to rationality is won by default by the atheist.
 

muhammad_isa

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To which the atheist then says, "Show me your God."

Arrogance gets you nowhere.
The implication that God does not exist is irrational.
To believe that an intelligent universe can come from nothingness is irrational.

If I could show you God, it wouldn't "make people believe", despite people's insistence that it would.
"showing" means seeing with the eyes .. people could claim it was just an illusion etc.

There's something superior to the eyes. The heart.
 

Cino

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It is also why the atheist believes all those billions of people are misled.

Oh. I didn't realize I believed such things.

But of course! You are all misled! I, however, am rightly guided. Now, if only you could tell me, by whom... must have slipped my mind...
 

juantoo3

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I, however, am rightly guided. Now, if only you could tell me, by whom... must have slipped my mind...
While I don't think I've ever read it overtly stated, the presumption I've always had is that Atheists lead (or follow) themselves, their own rational reasoning.

And while there are always exceptions to be found, there have been a number of Atheists right here on this forum who were only too happy to tell us how deluded and irrational all religionists were...over and over and over.

I will say it is refreshing you are not one of them.
 

juantoo3

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Arrogance gets you nowhere.
The implication that God does not exist is irrational.
To believe that an intelligent universe can come from nothingness is irrational.

If I could show you God, it wouldn't "make people believe", despite people's insistence that it would.
"showing" means seeing with the eyes .. people could claim it was just an illusion etc.

There's something superior to the eyes. The heart.
Nothing you wrote here is rational.

I could agree with your statements all day long, it won't change that fact.

That has nothing at all to do with arrogance, and everything to do with rational.

So it's not good enough to be like Christianity in this regard? Islam *must* be better?
 
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muhammad_isa

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Nothing you wrote here is rational.

Basically, you are implying that people who have faith do not use their intelligence in determining their creed.

Speak for yourself. It's all about rationality for me.
If I thought the existence of God was irrational, I would be an atheist.

rational:- a: having reason or understanding. b : relating to, based on, or agreeable to reason
 

Cino

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While I don't think I've ever read it overtly stated, the presumption I've always had is that Atheists lead (or follow) themselves, their own rational reasoning.
I hear Baron Munchhausen had good things to tell about such exercises in boot-strapping. I haven't been able to replicate his success, and remain happily unguided.

Oh, and thanks for the compliment.
 

juantoo3

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Basically, you are implying that people who have faith do not use their intelligence in determining their creed.
Not at all, merely repeating what has been said by others, many times.

It's all about rationality for me.
As I am certain it would be, within the self-referential confines. Outside of that box, not so much.

If I thought the existence of God was irrational, I would be an atheist.
Yes, but you would be dealing with pure, raw, unfiltered rationality...and win that particular debate.

rational:- a: having reason or understanding. b : relating to, based on, or agreeable to reason
"Rationality implies the conformity of one's beliefs with one's reasons to believe." So if one does not conform to your beliefs they are irrational? Ergo, inside your box folks are rational, outside of your box folks are irrational?

Let me ask, what is it about faith, exactly, that is rational?
 
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Cino

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Rationality implies the conformity of one's beliefs with one's reasons to believe." So if one does not conform to your beliefs they are irrational? Ergo, inside your box folks are rational, outside of your box folks are irrational?

Let me ask, what is it about faith, exactly, that is rational?

I think both of you are making a very limited assumption about human nature here, namely that our rational selves are somehow our true selves, in charge of our executive functioning.

Psychology does not really corroborate that assumption. More often than not, our rational self is trying to construct explanations after the fact, for decisions made by other (not necessarily irrational, but often not conscious) functions.

Nobody falls in love through rational deliberation.

Anyone who has tried to meditate will have noticed how thoughts are an ongoing background chatter, not controllable through rational decision-making.

You probably both know the joke about the guy searching for his car keys at night, under a street light, and a friend comes up and asks where exactly he lost his keys - "Over there in the dark by the hedge!" - "Then why are you looking under the lamp post?" - "The light is better over here!".

Just saying.
 

muhammad_isa

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Let me ask, what is it about faith, exactly, that is rational?

Religious people often think of faith as confidence based on a perceived degree of warrant, while others who are more skeptical of religion tend to think of faith as simply belief without evidence.
- wikipedia -

Perhaps, this is where your viewpoint is coming from.
As far as I'm concerned, I have evidence ..

Now, you may claim that it is reasonable that an intelligent universe has no source. Strange, that mankind assumes
there is an explanation for physical phenomena, but that the whole needs none!

..then we come to the idea of heaven & hell, which mirrors our observations of what we may experience in this life.
It is rational to assume that our behaviour can have good or bad consequences, and that God can guide us through his messengers.

Is it rational to believe that God sent many human messengers to mankind and then decides to "send himself" in order
to absolve us of any blame through our behaviour? I would say not.
This is the problem. Christianity is based on truth i.e. Jesus Christ [ Messiah ]
..but in claiming the foundation of belief is in the trinity, we are led astray and concentrate on a "resurrected god" rather than true guidance.

True guidance is about "law", and Jesus did not come to dissolve it as many people claim.
Yes, somebody can have a strong faith and believe in the trinity, but that does not imply rationality..
..it implies that their faith that God EXISTS is strong.
 

RJM

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Is it rational to believe that God sent many human messengers to mankind and then decides to "send himself"
"Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:

And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.

And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.

Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.

But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
Matt 21:33-40

I would say not.
Doesn't matter
 
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muhammad_isa

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"
Doesn't matter

Of course it matters :)
I was asked "what is it about faith, exactly, that is rational?"

“Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose.
- Matthew 5:17 -

It is not rational to conclude that Jesus is God and died for our sins, so therefore we don't need the law anymore.
Following such a creed derived from Greek philosophy [ trinity ], contradicts what Jesus actually said.

Yes, I know that you will find an excuse or explanation .. that other verses show the opposite etc.
Unfortunately, human beings have been brainwashed for 100's of years to believe that Jesus intended to start a new religion.
..but he did not. It evolved due to political pressure. It is not just Muslims who conclude that.
Many Biblical scholars have too.
 

RJM

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Of course it matters :)
I was asked "what is it about faith, exactly, that is rational?"
I apologise for my misunderstanding and taking your statement out of context
Sorry

Unfortunately, human beings have been brainwashed for 100's of years to believe that Jesus intended to start a new religion.
..but he did not. It evolved due to political pressure

And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Matt 16:14-198

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