Is Islam a myth?

Discussion in 'Ancient History and Mythology' started by muhammad_isa, Jan 27, 2021.

  1. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    Huh? I said "even though what the Arabs tell us is the truth, is practically the same as what the Jews believe."

    I can't see why you thought I was referring to Jesus.
    Obviously, most people know that the majority of Jews reject Jesus.
    Do you really think that I'm that daft? :) [ no answer required ]

    Jews certainly do not believe that Jesus is God or that God has 3 parts.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2021
  2. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    Meaning what exactly?
    By the very nature of this thread, I'm defending the truth of the Qur'an against .. well, as many disbelievers who want
    to participate.
    I don't see anything wrong with this type of debate.

    You might see it as "a slanging match", with people feeling insulted etc.
    It seems that people don't want to connect truth with rationality.
    They want to make faith an arbitary one of their choosing.

    People are free to think what they like, as am I. I am not making personal comments.
    I'm arguing against the theology .. the methodology.

    Perhaps you think that such a debate is not suitable for an Interfaith forum.
    Perhaps you think that we should just pay each other "lip-service" and that our respective religions "belong" to the individual.
    In the same way, you bring up proselytizing.

    I don't see you having debates. You just make the occasional comment.
    I agree with Tone .. people often bring up this rule in order to silence people whom they don't agree with.
     
  3. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic) Admin Moderator

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    At school, we studied a play by German writer Lessing, once. Back then, I thought it was kind of dull and old-fashioned, but this thread reminds me of its continued relevance.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_the_Wise

    To sum up the play for you: Have you considered that none of us in here is in possession of the ultimate truth? And that by sharing what understanding of it we do have, we all approach it together? And that the things we bicker about might not even be true?
     
  4. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    @RabbiO is talking about the tone of the debate. He is quite right. Where I've been guilty I do apologise. We're supposed to be gentlemen and adults here. Please report posts that do not meet IO standards, regardless of the author
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2021
  5. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    It's inevitable, that some people will feel as if their faith is being threatened or mocked when another person
    attacks the theology of the trinity, regardless of whether that person is a Christian, Muslim, Jew or atheist.

    If somebody insists that God is a trinity, then that is their belief. If a person believes that our beliefs
    don't need to be rational, then that is their belief. If a person feels insulted by somebody who thinks otherwise,
    I wonder why that is? If they are so sure about it, then they should feel sorry for the person who doesn't believe as they do.

    It is not disrespectful to have a rational debate about any topic. It only becomes disrespectful
    when people make personal comments. I sometimes give replies to posts in a light-hearted manner.
    My intention isn't one of making fun .. it is designed to lighten the tone.
    I'm sorry if anybody takes it personally.
     
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  6. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Would like to direct attention to this essay by @SchorlarlySeeker
    https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/19624/#post-341788

    The blue emphasis here is mine:

     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2021
  7. ScholarlySeeker

    ScholarlySeeker Active Member

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    Well, it depends on which group of Jews are being discussed. There are Messianic Jews these days who do believe in Jesus after all. If we are talking Orthodox, then sure. But there are many different groups of Jews though not as many as Christians. I'm not arguing, just noting the historical circumstance of today.
     
  8. SufiPhilosophy

    SufiPhilosophy Evolution by mutation has never been observed

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    No.

    Expansion: there's always the chance that everyone is wrong, but in my experience it's the way a dismissive teacher breaks up a fight - by telling them they are all in the wrong and collectively punishing everybody rather than searching for the truth of the matter. Plus collective punishment is illegal under international law.
     
  9. SufiPhilosophy

    SufiPhilosophy Evolution by mutation has never been observed

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    May i ask how it concerns you what a man does with a woman in wedlock?
    Was it any different in any other culture?
    What law was being broken? Here in England it's probably illegal to paint a swastika on a little boy's head. And probably also to burn a widow.
    At what age does a woman begin to be attractive? What changes from the day prior to that day?
    What do you mean, "he had to do..."? He loved his first wife. Who are you to project such contempt?

    "Be your own guru"? No, if it means this.
     
  10. SufiPhilosophy

    SufiPhilosophy Evolution by mutation has never been observed

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    I think the Quran admonishes against arguing over things that are unknowable (as logic dictates) either way. But they can be discussed, just not crystallised into opposing camps.
     
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  11. SufiPhilosophy

    SufiPhilosophy Evolution by mutation has never been observed

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    What a disgusting way to talk to people. You are not debating and you are not responding to arrogance. You are throwing in fact-free slanders and stereotypes. This typifies your posts. You do not debate. I am well aware of Hinduism's teachings by the way, and Buddhism's. They're not as innocent as you'd probably have people believe. I find the teachings shocking. But l don't want to mudsling nor go off topic.
     
  12. SufiPhilosophy

    SufiPhilosophy Evolution by mutation has never been observed

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    That's just not true. You have not researched Islam and / or you are just creating a straw man.

    Islam teaches stories of various prophets because they were real. The Bible also has stories of some of those prophets but not all. Some are not in the Bible. The Qur'an has stories of some Bible prophets but not all. Some are not in the Qur'an.

    The Qur'an corrects the Bible without even stating that it's correcting the Bible. Also the Qur'an contains major and also innocuous details about some prophets that aren't in the Bible, which shows that the Qur'an doesn't really take its cue from the Bible, it's just God telling it like it is, whether or not it's also in the Bible.

    The Bible was distorted. The Bible quickly became unviable, save for some prophets that came along to reform the religion, but soon after their passing, the temple franchises moved back in and corrupted the writings.

    The Qur'an appeared when it was finally all lost. I'm not sure exactly what happened to make the Bible finally all lost but it may have been the death of the Seven Sleepers who slept in a cave for about 300 years when fleeing Emperor Decius, who was persecuting Christians. The Seven Sleepers probably in my opinion died in the late 500s, and thereafter all was lost, but the people in the Levant were known to be expecting a new prophet soon.

    The Qur'an does not base its differences on genealogies and heritage, it is not a tribal book but a book for all mankind, including eskimos and Australian aborigines.

    The Bible said the progeny of Isma'il would be blessed.

    and so on.


    I recommend you read the Qur'an, hadith, and books on Islam from, ooooh, i don't know ... a community of killer whale bone carvers in Alaska. No, erm ... from Islamophobes? No, hey wait, even better idea: from Muslims. Yes try that. Try using Muslim sources including their core texts. I'm not asking you to believe, just to be factual.
     
  13. SufiPhilosophy

    SufiPhilosophy Evolution by mutation has never been observed

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    God gives that right. You're not him.
     
  14. SufiPhilosophy

    SufiPhilosophy Evolution by mutation has never been observed

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    You do care, you typically shame Muslims for their beliefs by making fraught comparisons with secularism, whilst not using the same critique for, say, atheism or other faiths or even your own self. Every time you write about Islam on here, it is negative, punitive, rhetoric. Your words are logically fallacious e.g. always interchanging Islam with Muslims, and moreover the cherry picked reports about Muslims you select are, well, cherry picked. I believe you do this to avoid one core issue: there is nothing wrong with the Islamic religion, and / or you haven't even studied it. So you take it around the houses instead, that man , he fed a seagull some alkaseltzer, the seagull suffered, Jefferson would never do that, l remember it was the summer of 1854, look this article, see, tolerance of all, but you Muslim lot aren't like that, bla de bla de bla de bla. Always the same gish gallop from you. Use facts. Be relevant.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2021
  15. SufiPhilosophy

    SufiPhilosophy Evolution by mutation has never been observed

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    Oh my years!!!!
    Islam does not believe in Incarnation. It is anathema. This is a major issue and as such our Prophet or our Qur'an would have mentioned Incarnation is okay. In fact, they taught the opposite, again and again and again.

    Christ was a word from Allah. That is to say, Allah says "Be!" and a thing is. Not that Allah incarnated bodily.


    When we are talking theologically and not mundanely, nothing is by the power of anything but Allah. We have a saying oft-repeated in times of distress, taught by our Prophet in hadith: "There is no power and no strength except with Allah."



    No, Jesus was no ordinary man, agree. He was Messiah. You might want to look the term up and ask yourself is it congruent with being God?



    We do believe in Ascension, not that we might. We do.


    You fail to see why we cannot believe in Resurrection of Christ? When your Bible even teaches that people have ascended bodily into heaven whilst alive?

    Because our holy book tells us he wasn't killed. (probably because as Messiah, he still had unfinished business) This is basic stuff bro, whether you believe it or not. May l ask if you are well acquainted with Islam because on every point you make, there is an error. I make zero errors or if l do, l take correction gladly. I have no use for error, l ditch it quick quick.



    Oh my years!!!! No. We do not believe Jesus was the son of God. LOL!
    Please, just, read a book about Islam by a Muslim or even better, the core scripture from Allah.
    Then the traditions of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).
    Then some other books by Muslims.


    Well, that precludes all debate. What a way to talk. Why do you come to a thread about Islam on a forum predicated on debate, if to just say you don't need to know anything new?
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2021
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  16. Thomas

    Thomas Moderator Moderator

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    Yes, I subsequently checked my claim and see that it's wrong. I wasn't aware of the logic of the argument.

    He was seen to be many things.

    OK.

    Bodily ascension does not rule out Resurrection.

    Ah. OK.
     
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  17. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    Who would not like to be 'a man of God', if that allows a person to marry 11 women, mostly young, towards the end of his life after spending 25 years of life with a woman 25 years older than himself, and get 20% of the 'ghanimat' (gift from God) that his followers amass in wars?
     
  18. SufiPhilosophy

    SufiPhilosophy Evolution by mutation has never been observed

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    What l was saying is: your Bible already has precedent for it, so it's not so weird that we might also believe Jesus bodily ascended to heaven.
    Also yes, of course, you can have the sequence of resurrection from the dead, then bodily ascension.
    I hope you realise why we consider this anathema by the way. It sets the scene for a very bad person forecast to come one day. Feel free to google our propecies.
     
  19. SufiPhilosophy

    SufiPhilosophy Evolution by mutation has never been observed

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    1. Who are we to compare and contrast prophets?
    2. Married 11 woman? Make it 22, 33, l'm not bothered. Really l'm not.
    By the way, all but one of those women were from previous marriages. He took in a lot of widows and divorcees from broken homes. That is why he was allowed over the prescribed limit of 4 wives.
    3. Mostly young? What is young? I already asked you similar questions but you skip them. This is clearly subective, as you don't elaborate objectively.
    And so it becomes weird. You see:
    - This is clearly in your mind
    - This is clearly about your aesthetics, your desires
    - And usually it means you are hiding a very intense personal desire. If l am wrong may l die horribly. But l've lived long enough to know this type of personality, the Sexual Purist type.
    - The desire clearly focuses around "young", and is hiding behind a foil that old is best (whatever old is), and in fact, no sex is even better. Likely sour grapes. But i guess soured grapes are better than ...
    4. You then contradict by criticising the Prophet's (peace be upon him) marriage to Khadija (may Allah be pleased with her), his employer, who was some years his senior.
    5. The Prophet only got 20%? Shocking. He should have gotten more, and should have kept it.
    6. I'm not sure how much he really got. Are you? Was it really 20%? You're not trustworthy as a source.
    7. I'm not sure what ghanimat is.
    8. I do know that the Prophet was often pushed around by his generals - they were loose coalitions of families and tribes that often just wanted more for their own selves.
    9. The Prophet was the state. All the money of the state flowed from him. The spoils weren't even all for him.
    10. The Prophet went to sleep with nothing and woke with nothing, and between waking and sleeping, he processed huge amounts of wealth for his people.
    11. He slept on the floor. He died with a small debt, l believe, settled with selling a piece of armour.
    12. The Prophet forbade his family to receive charity after his death. They were people not for this world but the next.
    13. The Prophet wouldn't even let his own daughter inherit an orchard after his death. His family were to leave this world with nothing. They were not for this world. I doubt anybody loved their daughter more than our Prophet and l doubt any child loved their parent more than Fatima, may Allah be pleased with her.

    It disgusts me that you can hold a noble person in such contempt, and that you keep avoiding pertinent counter-questions. I am done with this restaurant mentality, wherein everything in your narrow space is the way you see it, and that narrow space is all that you see. It's self perpetuating small mindedness and your comments aren't open to debate, they just flame.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2021

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