Arian Christology

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by muhammad_isa, Feb 19, 2021.

  1. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    And I can demonstrate the foundation of my belief, and you can't disprove it, nor prove yours.

    Well ... I doubt then nor today would your average Trinitarian give you that definition, there were various ways of expressing the belief, but they were trinitarian. It's the role of theology to 'unpack' Revelation, as it were.

    (BTW, that wiki bit is not quite accurate, the Three differ in 'action' (or operation) and relation.

    Again, I can demonstrate the foundation of my belief ...

    OK, but that's not what we believe, so that's a classic straw man fallacy.
     
  2. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    Well, the orthodox trinity "says that"..
     
  3. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    When I tell you what I do believe, you ignore it.

    No, not clearly at all.
    As with most of Christ’s words and parables, it is the use of human language to try to explain a spiritual reality.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2021
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  4. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    I'm perplexed.
    "our Father whom art in heaven" means what, then?
    You do believe the Father is God, don't you? [ whether you also believe the Son is God or not is immaterial ]
     
  5. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    It is used by Christ to explain to human beings in human language the interactive relationship of Spirit to nature. Aka: Christ as fully Spirit and fully nature, both, imo
     
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  6. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Hi Tony —
    I read this, but it doesn't really address the issue of the Trinity.

    The Oneness of God is integral to a Trinitarian understanding.

    I can only say again, the analogy offered does not actually equate or relate to the doctrine – it's a case of presenting an erroneous analogy of what we believe, and then answering that.

    An akin analogy would be the Father is the sun, the Son is its radiance and the Holy Spirit is its light. Or again, Father is the sun, the Son is its light, and the Holy Spirit is its warmth – as ever analogies are like unto, but not the same as – the mirror is the soul.
     
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  7. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Did they, though?
     
  8. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Scripture and Tradition are clear on this point: Everything the Son is, is given Him by the Father, ergo the Father is greater because it is the Father who gives to the Son, but the Son is the same because God's self-giving is Infinite and Boundless, in effect He gives Himself utterly and entirely to the Son.
     
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  9. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic) Staff Member

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    Is division really that terrible?

    Is unity to be understood as being divided from and separate from multiplicity? That's a contradiction right there. Does unity contain even its opposite? Isn't that kind of monism a bit lazy? Thomas outlined the Neoplatonist solution, a hierarchy of Truth leading up to Unity, which permits multiplicity while maintaining Truth. He mentioned a couple of Muslim philosophers who were influential and also thought along these lines.

    Incidentally, I think violence, narrow-mindedness, hard-heartedness, bigotry, looking down on others, and so on, are far more destructive and dangerous than division.
     
  10. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    Moved ----> https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/19662/
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2021
  11. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    That does not answer my question..
    "You do believe the Father is God, don't you?"

    Is it yes or no .. or yes, but etc.
     
  12. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    It's too simplistic. Father is the word used by Christ: it was not used before Christ, in reference to God. It describes God in relation to human beings, with Christ as the bridge between Spirit and nature -- in the sense that 'God' is also in relation a neutron star, or to a fish, or to electricity or gravity.

    It's just not possible to simplify the interaction between Spirit and (human) nature in simple words. Christ's life and death and resurrection contain all truth and all mystery of the relationship between God and man, that libraries of words cannot properly explain. It's not just about 'Jesus son of Mary' the man.
    Although Arius's own letters apparently do not say that?

    Go outside and take air into your lungs. Now come back inside and blow it out into a balloon. Was the air in the balloon created, that you breathed out -- or was it begotten of and no different from the infinity of unbegotten air outside? Draw a bucket of water from the well and take it inside into your house and use it to make tea. Is the tea created by or is it begotten of the well?
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2021
  13. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    I already said that we agree on the subject of "hierarchical degrees of divinity" as a concept concerning the trinity.

    I'm afraid it comes with "the territory". If people insist that "their doctrine" is right and others are wrong,
    it can become a political nightmare.
    That is why the Qur'an is so divisive .. people either believe or disbelieve. It is not a matter of doctrine when it comes to
    the subject of the trinity. Muslims all believe in Jesus, the son of Mary, and that he did not claim to be God.

    How one approaches the issue is obviously important i.e. Christian-Muslim dialogue
    However .. I digress .. this discussion is about the division in early Christianity that shaped orthodox belief.
     
  14. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    Also that he did not die on the cross, did not rise from the tomb, etc. No middle-ground. Sorry, no offence meant, but just get over it, brother ...
     
  15. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    No offence taken :)
     
  16. Tone Bristow-Stagg

    Tone Bristow-Stagg Active Member

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    The other way to look at it when we take away our connection to the flesh is;

    That God is the Sun, the Holy Spirit is the life giving rays of the Sun and the Mirror is the Messenger. It is the sun and the rays that give life on this planet.

    When we look at the Body of the Messenger they are the perfect mirror. They reflect to us and all we can see of them is God in Attributes, we do not know, nor does the Messenger know God in Essence.

    That Perfect mirror is what we see God in in every age God sends a Messenger.

    This explains the Trinity with Logic and Reason. Shows us how a flesh Body can be seen as God and shows the absolute Oneness of all God's Messengers, that all Names and Attributes come from God, but are not God.

    When we become lovers only of a Name, I see we fail to see who Christ really was, and why Jesus could offer I have many other sheep that are not of this fold.

    Regards Tony
     
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  17. Tone Bristow-Stagg

    Tone Bristow-Stagg Active Member

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    Then I see there is an issue. We will never see the material body of Jesus ever again.

    As such, one can conclude they will never see the Divine Christ as well.

    I personally see that is what is meant in let the dead bury the dead. When we pursue a material view of life over following Christ in Spirit.

    Personally I am tired of this bag of bones and it animal tendencies, why would we want to stay in the matrix of this world and not to be born again in spirit , never to return to the matrix?

    Regards Tony
     
  18. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Save Our Souls

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    Why? Jesus did not die a natural death. He ascended to 'heaven' to be with his 'Father'?
    Can the Father not send him back [as a miracle], just as he was born of a virgin being a miracle?
     
  19. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    Humans have always tried to manipulate Christ to fit their own belief and philosophy.
     
  20. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    IMO they always need to piggyback on Jesus. They don't have anything original, that Jesus didn't say or do
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2021

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