the earlier Jews and Christians recognize prophet Muhammad and expect his coming

Discussion in 'Comparative Studies' started by Friend, Jan 21, 2005.

  1. Friend

    Friend In the Name of God

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    All the Jews and Christians of that time recognized God’s Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings. As stated in the Qur’an, They recognize him as they recognize their sons (al-Baqara, 2.146). After his conversion, ‘Umar asked ‘Adbullah ibn Salam if he had recognized God’s Messen-ger. ‘I recognized him’, Ibn Salam answered and added, ‘I may doubt my children – my wife might have deceived me; but I have no doubt about God’s Messenger being the Last Prophet.’

    Especially the Jews in Madina were awaiting the coming of a Prophet and expected that he would appear in Madina. Whenever a conflict appeared between them and the Arab people of Madina – the Aws and Hajrac tribes – they threatened them that they would destroy them when the Prophet appeared. However, although they recognized the Prophet Muhammad as they recognized their sons, they rejected him only because he did not belong to their tribe:

    The conversion of Salman al-Farisi

    The Prophet Muhammad, upon him be peace and blessings, was one who had been sought for centuries. Salman al-Farisi was one of those seekers. Originally he was a Magian, a fire worshipper. However, he was inwardly burning to find the eternal truth, and left home. Before embracing Islam, he had worked for several Christian monks, the last of whom advised Salman on his deathbed:

    Son, there is nobody left to whom I can commend you. But according to what we read in our books, the Last Prophet is about to appear. He will come with the pure creed of Abraham and will appear in the place to which Abraham migrated. Nevertheless, he will emigrate to another place and settle there. There are explicit signs of his Prophethood. For example, he will not eat of charity, but will accept gifts, and the seal of Prophethood will be between his two shoulders.

    Now, let us leave it to Salman himself to narrate the rest of his story:

    I joined a caravan heading for the place that the late monk had mentioned. When we arrived at Wadi al-Qura’, they sold me to a Jew as a slave. When I saw gardens of date palms, I thought that that place would be where the Prophet would emigrate. While I was working there, another Jew from Banu Qurayza bought me and took me to Madina. I began working in the Jew’s date palm garden. There was no news yet of God’s Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings. However, one day I happened to be harvesting dates in a tree when a cousin of my Jewish owner came up hurriedly. He said to the Jew in anger: ‘Damn it all! All the people are flocking to Quba( The first Mosque in Islam built in Al Madina after the emigrated of the prophet to it ). A man from Makka, who claims Prophethood, has come, and they imagine him to be a real Prophet.’

    I began to tremble with excitement. I climbed down from the tree and asked the man: ‘What are you talking about?’ My owner saw my excitement and slapped me on the face with the back of his hand, saying: ‘It does not concern you, mind your own business!’

    On the same day, as the sun set, I went to him in Quba and presented to him as alms the food that I had brought with me. God’s Messenger did not himself touch it, but said to those around him, ‘Help yourself to this’. ‘This is the first sign,’ I told myself.

    On another occasion, I presented something, but this time as a gift. He accepted it and ate it with his Companions. ‘This is the second sign,’ I told myself.

    Once, after one of his Companions passed away, I attended the funeral, and I came close to God’s Messenger in the cemetery. After greeting him, I stood behind him in the hope of seeing the seal of Prophethood. His shoulders were bare. The seal was just as the monk had de-scribed it. I couldn’t help kissing it in tears and I told him my story. He was very pleased and wanted also his Companions to hear my story.1
    _____________________________
    1. Ibn Hisham, Sira, 1.228–34.

    Thanks to all
     
  2. Faithfulservant

    Faithfulservant New Member

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    I never knew who he was until I heard about Islam. Hes not mentioned in the bible. I dont know if Judiasm mentions him in their teachings. As soon as Ishmael left with his mother you dont read much of him and his descendents. Sorry I dont know what to say.
     
  3. Friend

    Friend In the Name of God

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    Salaamu Alyckum

    Let me explain for you one notices from the Gospel of John that the Jews were waiting for the fulfillment of three distinct prophecies. The first was the coming of Christ. The second was the coming of Elijah. The third was the coming of the Prophet. This is obvious from the three questions that were posed to John the Baptist: Now this was John’s testimony, when the Jews of Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was. He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, “I am not the Christ.” They asked him, “Then who are you? Are you Elijah?” He said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” He answered, “No.” (John 1:19-21).
    If we look in a Bible with cross-references, we will find in the marginal notes where the words “the Prophet” occur in John 1:21, that these words refer to the prophecy of Deuteronomy 18:15 and 18:18.2 We conclude from this that Jesus Christ is not the prophet mentioned in Deuteronomy.
     
  4. Friend

    Friend In the Name of God

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    Salaam​
    I do not know what was the references of the old Christians scholar that guided them to the new prophet after Jesus , I did not read the original gospel but I think this is one of the important reference


    The Prophet like unto Moses

    Deuteronomy 18:18-19
    I will raise them up a PROPHET FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN, LIKE UNTO THEE, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.


    (1) "​
    From among their brethren": The BRETHREN of Israelites (descendants of Abraham through Isaac) are the Ishmaelites (descendants of Abraham through Ishmael). Jesus is here excluded as he is an Israelite; otherwise it should be written "a prophet from among yourselves."


    (2) "​
    Like unto thee": Who was like Moses? Jesus or Muhammad? Jesus was unlike Moses in many ways while Muhammad was like Moses:


    this is some area of Comparison between Moses,Muhammad and Jesus continuously Moses / Mohameed / Jesus :


    -Birth :Usual/ Usual / Unusual


    -Family life :Married,children / Married, children / No marriage or children


    -Death :Usual / Usual / Unusual



    -Forced Emigration :emigrated / emigrated / None

    (in adulthood)
    -
    Encounter with :Hot pursuit /Hot pursuit / No similar encounter
    enemies


    -Result of encounter: Moral-Physical Victory / Moral-Physical Victory / Moral victory


    -Writing down of revelation :In his lifetime (Torah) In his lifetime (Al-Qur'an) After him(Gospel)


    -Nature of teachings : Spiritual-legal/ Spiritual-legal / Mainly spiritual



    -Acceptance of leadership (by his people) :Rejected, then accepted / Rejected, then accepted / Rejected (by most Israelites).


    3- "Put my words in his mouth": If I ask you to read Deuteronomy, chapter 18, verse 18, and you read it, would I be putting my words into your mouth? No. But if I were to ask you to repeat after me what I say, for example:


    "Say: He is Allah the One and Only. Allah, the Eternal Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is he begotten: And there is none like unto him." [Holy Qur'an 112:1-4]


    Would I not be putting these words INTO your MOUTH? That is indeed so. In an identical manner, the words of the Holy Qur'an, the Revelation vouchsafed by the Almighty God to Muhammad (pbuh) were revealed. ​

    It has been recorded in various Hadith' (eg. Bukhari and Muslim) that Muhammad (pbuh) was forty years of age. He was in a cave of Hira, some three miles north of the City of Mecca. He used to go there frequently to medicate and pray to Allah. It was the 27th night of the Muslim month of Ramadan. In the cave the Archangel Gabriel appears before him and commands him in his mother tongue: "​
    IQRA'" which means "READ!" or "Recite" or "Repeat". Muhammad (pbuh) replies: "Maa-ana-beqaa-Ri’in" which means: I am not learned! (fulfilling a prophecy in Isaiah 29:12, see below under "Un-lettered prophet") The angel embraces him forcefully until Muhammad (pbuh) could not bear it anymore. He then releases him and commands him the second time "Read" and again Muhammad (pbuh) replies "I am not learned". The angel embraces him the second time until he could not bear it and commands him again "Read" and again Muhammad (pbuh) gives the answer "I am not learned". Thereupon the angel embraces him the third time and then releases him and says: "Iqra-bissmi-Rabbikal-laziKhalaq", which translates to "READ IN THE NAME OF THY LORD AND CHERISHER WHO CREATED-". Only then did Muhammad (pbuh) repeat the words after the angel as they were put into his mouth. Following the above verse of Sura Al-Alaq (chapter 96 of the Holy Qur’an), four more verses were repeated and recited on Muhammad’s (pbuh) first call and subsequently in written form in the Holy Qur’an.


    If someone or something came to you and embraced you so hard that you could not bear it any more, it would be natural for you to become very terrified and quickly obey the commands of that unknown figure in order to save your skin! You would quickly say to him 'tell me what to read and I will read it'. The above incident shows the real character of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Allah had commanded the angel to act in that way in order to show us the truthfulness and the faith that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) had in Allah. He was not going to obey any unknown figure that appears before him and tries to threaten him and commands him to read. He was truthful about himself all the time and tells the angel 'I am not learned'. When the angel said "Read in the name of thy Lord and Cherisher who created", only then did Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) repeat the words after him, for it became clear that this commandment was from Allah, the Lord of all creation, whom he had faith in. ​

    During the next twenty-three years of his prophetic life, words were "put into his mouth", and he uttered them. They made an indelible impression on his heart and mind: and as the volume of Sacred Scripture (Holy Qur'an) drew, they were recorded on palm-leaf fibre, on skins and on the shoulder blades of animals; and in the hearts of his devoted disciples. Before his demise, these words were arranged in the order in which we find them today in the Holy Qur'an.
     
  5. Postmaster

    Postmaster New Member

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    The Christians never recognized Mohamed! For a start Islam appears 600 years later then Christianity and Christians would have rejected him because of the teachings of the bible! Second Mohamed was Anti-Christian right form the start, claiming he was the chosen one by God and Jesus was second best, thats more like childish school games to me :)! Third Islam spread because of the sword, Chrisitanity spread by Martyrs giving there lives (in the begining)

    As a Chrisitan I would never discredit Mohammid or say he not a the chosen prophet of God, thats already been done by the likes of Salman Rushdie.

    Having Multiple wifes is abit unethical don't you agree? The wifes suffer from the natural emotion Jelousy and its ashame. I probably would too.

    My intention is not putting down Islam, but intercepting your personal pushy posts or maybe like in Islam there is some connection with pushy and I'm going encourage to you into healthy defensive discussion. May I also say that I have posted extremely controversial things about Jesus Christ, however, I dare put all the things I have read about Mohammid and before you saything theres no western propaganda. How many Churches have been converted to mosques in Greece and Cyprus by the Guns? The latest being 30 years ago. Christiand would never convert a Mosque because they need a reason to build a church. and often in a saints name. Also all this talk about Pedophiliac priests, yes its true but did you know that any normal human being can become a priest? And it’s usually the people that do, do it to escape normal society where they are not accepted. Doesn't mean they all are too, its just that when it happens its such a big shock it hits the media, and rightly so. Plus there is less cases in the Christian Orthodox church.
     
  6. Faithfulservant

    Faithfulservant New Member

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    No the Messiah was to be proceeded by a prophet.. there are those that say its Elijah and those that say its Jeremiah.. never once in the bible is Muhammad mentioned. Elijah was present at the Mount of Transfiguration at Jesus crucifixion.. Jesus also said that John was Elijah in the spirit which goes far in explaining the prophecies. John was prophesized about in Isaiah as being a voice in the wilderness which John then claims to be.

    Im a bit curious what site your cut and pasting this information from? Or are you actually reading the bible to get your own opinions? The latter would be more impressive rather than taking someone elses opinions as facts in your own mind.
     
  7. Faithfulservant

    Faithfulservant New Member

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    The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a prophet--The insertion of this promise, in connection with the preceding prohibition, might warrant the application (which some make of it) to that order of true prophets whom God commissioned in unbroken succession to instruct, to direct, and warn His people; and in this view the purport of it is, "There is no need to consult with diviners and soothsayers, as I shall afford you the benefit of divinely appointed prophets, for judging of whose credentials a sure criterion is given" (Deuteronomy 18:20-22). But the prophet here promised was pre-eminently the Messiah, for He alone was "like unto Moses" "in His mediatorial character; in the peculiar excellence of His ministry; in the number, variety, and magnitude of His miracles; in His close and familiar communion with God; and in His being the author of a new dispensation of religion." This prediction was fulfilled fifteen hundred years afterwards and was expressly applied to Jesus Christ by Peter (Acts 3:22,23), and by Stephen (Acts 7:37).

    The witnesses of the life of Jesus Christ are all documented. We have his birth his ministry his death his resurrection witnessed by many people. We have Jesus who didnt write his own gospels but were written by men that witnessed it firsthand. Why would they write the gospels during Jesus life when the glory of his purpose on earth wasnt fully revealed until his death? Jesus doesnt have a grave. Mohammad does.
     
  8. Friend

    Friend In the Name of God

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    Salaamu Alyckum

    Actually ,I made deep research about this subject ,starting from the information that we know about some earlier Christians monks searching about prophet will come after Jesus (PUH).after searching I found these information which some Christians help in explanation from your holy book.

    Some said that their were three different and distinct questions were posed to John the Baptist and to which he gave three emphatic "NO'S" as answers. To recapitulate:-
    1) ART THOU THE CHRIST?
    2) ART THOU ELIAS?
    3) ART THOU THAT PROPHET?


    But the learned of Christendom somehow only see two questions implied here. To make doubly clear that the Jews definitely had T-H-R-E-E separate prophecies in their minds when they were interrogating John the Baptist, let us read the remonstrance of the Jews in the verses following:

    "AND THEY ASKED HIM, AND SAID UNTO HIM, WHEY BAPTIZEST THOU THEN, IF THOU BE
    a) NOT THAT CHRIST,
    b) NOR ELIAS,
    c) NEITHER THAT PROPHET?"
    (John 1:25)


    The Jews were waiting for the fulfilment of THREE distinct prophecies: One, the coming of CHRIST. Two the coming of ELIAS, and Three, the coming of THAT PROPHET.
    ----------------------------------
    Also,Let us have a look at verse 12 &13 of John 16 to know how Jesus(pbuh) prophesies about Muhammad (pbuh).

    “ 12. I have yet many things to say unto you, but you cannot bear them now.

    13. Howbeit when he, the spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. ”

    Let me quote the verse in full without a break as found in the "King James Version," or the "Authorised version" as it is more popularly know "AND THE BOOK IS DELIVERED TO HIM THAT IS NOT LEARNED, SAYING, READ THIS I PRAY THEE: AND HE SAITH, I AM NOT LEARNED." (Isaiah 29:12).

    ("I am not learned." is the exact translation of the Arabic words which Muhummed uttered twice to the Holy Ghose - the Archangel Gabriel, when he was commanded : "READ!").

    I think you have the ability to explain these information for us because you have christianity background . Can you give us your perception here about these information ?Is this information incorrect ?
    _____________________________
    Faithfulservant, your avatar very beautiful which may reflect your personality .

    Thanks to all

     
  9. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Admin

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    The logic of the original argument eludes me - if the books of the Jews and Christians are believed corrupted, and the ideologies of the Jews and Christians misguided, then why is the original story apparently trying desperately to fulfill misguided thoughts from corrupted books? :)

    This is a somewhat proselytising thread - which is odd in an Islam board. Friend, do you believe that other Muslims require convincing that their faith is the fulfillment of wayward Christians?

    I've also received a request to remove the thread from the Islam board, and move it to the Comparative Religion board, where it can undergo proper deconstruction. :)
     
  10. Friend

    Friend In the Name of God

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    We believe in all original holy books and believe that they sent from our God , and when we said that the books of the Jews and Christians were corrupted we didn't said that the earlier Christian and Jewish didn't have the right copy of the holy books , also not all verses of these holy books are corrupted sometimes certain words were deleted and others were added , also the translation process from the original language of these holy books specially the bible (The Aramaic language) to other languages sometimes incorrect .





    No we didn't need this because we believe in our religion and all these information was written in Al Quraan , but I want here to find common point between Islam and other heaven religions ,Also I know that the majority of Christians people does not believe in Quraan or Islam to give them evidences from Quraan or Islam that all heaven religion included Islam is from the same source and they are complementary , So I search about evidences from the source that they believe in it ( The bible ), Just for information , and I know that we as Muslims believe in Jesus (PUH)as prophet from our God , and bible as a holy book sent from Allah , at the same time Christians does not believe in Mohammed or Islam as a heaven religion . Am I wrong ?
    Thanks to all
     
  11. Faithfulservant

    Faithfulservant New Member

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    Thank you very much Friend. I was attracted to this avatar because it reminds me of myself when I think of my relationship with God.


    I will get back to you later today with a more thorough response.. I just wanted to say quickly that the Holy Ghost is NOT the Archangel Michael. They are two completely seperate beings. The Holy Ghost is the power or the Spirit of God Michael is an angel of God.. one of his messengers.

    I do have one question for you. Were there any witnesses to the Archangel Michaels visit to Muhammad??

    I will get back to you later on to discuss this when I have more time.
     
  12. Faithfulservant

    Faithfulservant New Member

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    When John was taken to be the Messiah, he did not play at it If the people will be deceived, let them; but openly and solemnly, without any ambiguities, confessed, I am not the ChristI am not the Christ, not I another is at hand, who is he, but I am not.

    He disowns himself to be Elias, v. 21. The Jews expected the person of Elias to return from heaven, and to live among them, and promised themselves great things from it. Hearing of John’s character, doctrine, and baptism, and observing that he appeared as one dropped from heaven, in the same part of the country from which Elijah was carried to heaven, it is no wonder that they were ready to take him for this Elijah but he disowned this honor too.

    He disowns himself to be that prophet, or the prophet. First, He was not that prophet which Moses said the Lord would raise up to them of their brethren, like unto him. If they meant this, they needed not ask that question, for that prophet was no other than the Messiah, and he had said already, I am not the Christ. Secondly, He was not such a prophet as they expected and wished for like Samuel Jeremiah and Elijah, and some other of the prophets. Thirdly, He was not one of the old prophets raised from the dead, as they expected one to come before Elias, as Elias before the Messiah.

    Deuteronomy 18:15-22
    15 "The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him. 16 This is what you requested from the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, 'Let us not continue to hear the voice of the Lord our God or see this great fire any longer, so that we will not die! ' 17 Then the Lord said to me, 'They have spoken well. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. I will put My words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 I will hold accountable whoever does not listen to My words that he speaks in My name. 20 But the prophet who dares to speak in My name a message I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods-that prophet must die.' 21 You may say to yourself, 'How can we recognize a message the Lord has not spoken?' 22 When a prophet speaks in the Lord's name, and the message does not come true or is not fulfilled, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.


    But the prophet here promised was pre-eminently the Messiah, for He alone was "like unto Moses" "in His mediatorial character(mediating between God and Man) in the peculiar excellence of His ministry in the number, variety, and magnitude of His miracles; in His close and familiar communion with God and in His being the author of a new direction of religion." This prediction was fulfilled fifteen hundred years afterwards and was expressly applied to Jesus Christ by Peter (Acts 3:22,23), and by Stephen (Acts 7:37) I am posting all the scriptures around it so that they can be read and not taken out of context by looking at one verse in the chapter.

    Acts 3:19 -26 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.' 24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days. 25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, 'And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.' 26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities."

    Acts 7:1 Then the high priest said, "Are these things so?" 2 And he said, "Brethren and fathers, listen: The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Haran, 3 and said to him, 'Get out of your country and from your relatives, and come to a land that I will show you.' 4 Then he came out of the land of the Chaldeans and dwelt in Haran. And from there, when his father was dead, He moved him to this land in which you now dwell. 5 And God gave him no inheritance in it, not even enough to set his foot on. But even when Abraham had no child, He promised to give it to him for a possession, and to his descendants after him. 6 But God spoke in this way: that his descendants would dwell in a foreign land, and that they would bring them into bondage and oppress them four hundred years. 7 'And the nation to whom they will be in bondage I will judge,' said God, 'and after that they shall come out and serve Me in this place.' 8 Then He gave him the covenant of circumcision; and so Abraham begot Isaac and circumcised him on the eighth day; and Isaac begot Jacob, and Jacob begot the twelve patriarchs. 9 "And the patriarchs, becoming envious, sold Joseph into Egypt. But God was with him 10 and delivered him out of all his troubles, and gave him favor and wisdom in the presence of Pharaoh, king of Egypt; and he made him governor over Egypt and all his house. 11 Now a famine and great trouble came over all the land of Egypt and Canaan, and our fathers found no sustenance. 12 But when Jacob heard that there was grain in Egypt, he sent out our fathers first. 13 And the second time Joseph was made known to his brothers, and Joseph's family became known to the Pharaoh. 14 Then Joseph sent and called his father Jacob and all his relatives to him, seventy-five people. 15 So Jacob went down to Egypt; and he died, he and our fathers. 16 And they were carried back to Shechem and laid in the tomb that Abraham bought for a sum of money from the sons of Hamor, the father of Shechem. 17 "But when the time of the promise drew near which God had sworn to Abraham, the people grew and multiplied in Egypt 18 till another king arose who did not know Joseph. 19 This man dealt treacherously with our people, and oppressed our forefathers, making them expose their babies, so that they might not live. 20 At this time Moses was born, and was well pleasing to God; and he was brought up in his father's house for three months. 21 But when he was set out, Pharaoh's daughter took him away and brought him up as her own son. 22 And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and deeds. 23 Now when he was forty years old, it came into his heart to visit his brethren, the children of Israel. 24 And seeing one of them suffer wrong, he defended and avenged him who was oppressed, and struck down the Egyptian. 25 For he supposed that his brethren would have understood that God would deliver them by his hand, but they did not understand. 26 And the next day he appeared to two of them as they were fighting, and tried to reconcile them, saying, 'Men, you are brethren; why do you wrong one another?' 27 But he who did his neighbor wrong pushed him away, saying, 'Who made you a ruler and a judge over us? 28 Do you want to kill me as you did the Egyptian yesterday?' 29 Then, at this saying, Moses fled and became a dweller in the land of Midian, where he had two sons. 30 And when forty years had passed, an Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire in a bush, in the wilderness of Mount Sinai. 31 When Moses saw it, he marveled at the sight; and as he drew near to observe, the voice of the Lord came to him, 32 saying, 'I am the God of your fathers--the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' And Moses trembled and dared not look. 33 'Then the Lord said to him, "Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground. 34 I have surely seen the oppression of my people who are in Egypt; I have heard their groaning and have come down to deliver them. And now come, I will send you to Egypt." 35 This Moses whom they rejected, saying, 'Who made you a ruler and a judge? is the one God sent to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the Angel who appeared to him in the bush. 36 He brought them out, after he had shown wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red Sea, and in the wilderness forty years. 37 "This is that Moses who said to the children of Israel, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear.' 38 This is he who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the Angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, the one who received the living oracles to give to us, 39 whom our fathers would not obey, but rejected. And in their hearts they turned back to Egypt, 40 saying to Aaron, 'Make us gods to go before us; as for this Moses who brought us out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him.' 41 And they made a calf in those days, offered sacrifices to the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands. 42 Then God turned and gave them up to worship the host of heaven, as it is written in the book of the Prophets: 'Did you offer Me slaughtered animals and sacrifices during forty years in the wilderness, O house of Israel? 43 You also took up the tabernacle of Moloch, And the star of your god Remphan, Images which you made to worship; And I will carry you away beyond Babylon.' 44 "Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as He appointed, instructing Moses to make it according to the pattern that he had seen, 45 which our fathers, having received it in turn, also brought with Joshua into the land possessed by the Gentiles, whom God drove out before the face of our fathers until the days of David, 46 who found favor before God and asked to find a dwelling for the God of Jacob. 47 But Solomon built Him a house. 48 However, the Most High does not dwell in temples made with hands, as the prophet says: 49 'Heaven is My throne, And earth is My footstool. What house will you build for Me? says the Lord, Or what is the place of My rest? 50 Has My hand not made all these things?' 51 "You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. 52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, 53 who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it." 54 When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, 56 and said, "Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!" 57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and ran at him with one accord; 58 and they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." 60 Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not charge them with this sin." And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

    Then again I dont think my answer will be adequate since you seem to think you can pick and choose which scripture in the bible isnt corrupted or mistranslated. Its very hard to have a rational discussion with those kind of rules.


     
  13. Friend

    Friend In the Name of God

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    Salaamu Alyckum

    Holy Ghost in Christianity is Gabriel (puh) in Islam .and to answer your question I must explain how the relation between Mohameed and Gabriel (puh).or Holy Ghost started .

    The Messenger of Allah was alone in the Cave of Hira on the day destined for the start of his prophetic mission. He was forty-one years old and it was the seventeenth day of Ramadan, the sixth of August 6~O C.E. Suddenly an angel appeared and said to him,

    'Read!'
    'I cannot read,' he replied.
    Later, the Messenger of Allah, when recounting what had happened, said, 'He seized me and squeezed me as hard as I could bear and then let me go and said,
    "Read !"
    'I said, "I cannot read."
    'Then he squeezed me as hard as I could bear a second time and let me go. Again he said, "Read."
    'I cannot read.'
    'Then he squeezed me a third time and let me go and said:

    "Read in the name of your Lord' Who created, created man of a blood-clot. Read, and your Lord is the Most Generous, Who taught by the Pen, taught man what
    he did not know."'(96: 1-5)
    This was the first day of his prophethood and these were the first verses of the Qur'an to be revealed.

    Naturally, the Messenger of Allah was alarmed by the experience. He had not known what was happening and he had not heard of anything like this ever happening before. It had been a long time since there had been a Prophet. In any case, the Arabs had only a remote connection with prophethood. He was very frightened and returned to his house trembling.

    'Wrap me up! Wrap me up!' he said. 'I fear for myself! '
    When Khadijah asked why, he told her what had happened. She was an intelligent lady and had heard of prophethood, prophets and angels. She used to visit her cousin, Waraqah ibn Nawfal, who had become a Christian. He had read many books and had learned much from the People of the Torah and the Evangel.
    Khadijah knew the character of the Messenger of Allah better than anyone because she was his wife and close to his thoughts. She was well aware of his noble character and enviable qualities. She realised that he had always been given success and support by Allah, he was a man chosen from among His creation, whose life and conduct He was pleased with.

    Khadijah said :'No! Allah would never disgrace you! You maintain close ties with your relations, you bear others' burdens and give people what they need. You are hospitable to your guests and help those with a just claim to get what is due to them.'

    Khadijah thought it would be a good idea to consult her cousin, the scholar Waraqah ibn Nawfal(Who was Christian), and she took the Messenger of Allah to see him. When Waraqah heard what he had seen, he said, 'By the One who holds my soul in His hand, you are the Prophet of this people. The same Great Spirit has come to you which came to Musa. Your people will reject you, abuse you and drive you out and fight you.'

    The Messenger of Allah was astonished at what Waraqah said, especially about the Quraysh driving him out because he knew his position among them. They had always addressed him as the 'truthful' one and the 'trustworthy' one.
    In amazement he asked, 'Will the people drive me out?'
    'Yes,' Waraqah said, 'No man has ever brought anything like what you have brought without his people opposing him and fighting him. If I am alive on that day, and have already lived a long time, I will give you strong support.'

    After this first revelation there was a long gap before the revelations began again. Then the Qur'an started to come down at regular intervals over the following twenty-three years.


    All witnesses are Muslims, the prophet told them about many things they said or did inside their houses or during their daily life, Gabriel (PUH) told him about this information to guide Muslims to the right actions, which they should follow in their daily life, and he said that Gabriel (puh) told him about this information. Also the prophet Wives are witnesses about the relation between the prophet Mohameed (puh) and the Angel Gabriel (puh).
    Thanks
     
  14. Friend

    Friend In the Name of God

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    Just a quick note, the Arabic word "Ahmed" is an expression that means "The most praised." Prophet Muhammad was the first in the Middle East to be named "Muhammad (the glorified one)" and "Ahmed (his actual name which means the most praised)" right after birth. Below, you will see how Jesus in today's Gospel of John had called this human Prophet which he predicted his coming "The most praised".

    Jesus in the Greek Bible used the Greek word "Periklytos" which means the admirable or glorified one. He called that predicted human prophet "Periklytos". This word corresponds exactly to the Arabic word "Ahmed" which also means the "most praised." In other words, "Periklytos" is "Ahmed" in Greek.

    You can read the name of Muhammad in verse 16. It reads: "Yea, he is altogether lovely" in English Bible. In the Hebrew Bible, the word is "Muhammad-im". See Hebrew Bible printed for the British and Foreign Bible Society by Trowitzsch & Sons, Berlin, P. 1159.

    I hope anyone here can help us to translate the Greek word "Periklytos" in English language .
     
  15. Postmaster

    Postmaster New Member

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    But these are assumptions, of words! How do you know that Jesus wasn't referring to a Christian Icon such as Saint George the Greek Roman solider? Or any other Christian Martyr? Also is Greek when we say Perimehno it means I'm waiting. So maybe Peri has some relation to the awaited one too. If Muhammad was prophesied by Christ I'm sure he would have been more specific don't you agree? Like the prophesies of Jesus were more specific in Hebrew texts.. Were there any other prophesies other then Jesus (the person Muhammad said was not the chosen one) who prophesied Muhammad?
     
  16. Faithfulservant

    Faithfulservant New Member

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    Where in the bible did Jesus refer to a human prophet as most praised? Only God is worthy to be praised. I cannot find this anywhere so I will need you to tell me where it is.

    Also I used a greek lexicon to search for "periklytos" and it wasnt listed anywhere. The closest I could come to it is perikrathvß

    which means having power over something.
     
  17. Faithfulservant

    Faithfulservant New Member

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    The reason for my question as to whether there were witnesses to an Angel visiting Muhammad.. someone that wasnt biased is because Jesus had witnesses so it couldnt be said that he just made it up. He had witnesses to his birth to his ministry his miracles his death his resurrection so that these people would go out into the world and tell what they saw and noone could say... well he just made it up. Moses had witnesses to Gods work through him.. The parting of the red sea.. the plagues the staff turning into a serpent... I could go on and on with it and Im sure its not necessary.

    Did Muhammad prophesize anything that has come true? Has he performed miracles in front of witnesses? Like turning a few loaves of bread and a couple fish into enough to feed thousands? Or curing a blind man? Raising the dead as he did Lazerus?

    Thank you for any information you can give me Friend

    God bless
     
  18. mirrorinthefog

    mirrorinthefog New Member

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    Is it really necessarry to attack someone's religion when you don't agree with what they say and how they say it? Even though I don't consider myself Muslim, I find it harsh and uneccessary to sprout anti-____(insert religion/idea/concept/creed here) propoganda against someone when you are offended by their ideas...It makes it very unpleasant to read this post, which in itself didn't start out with the most objective basis.
     
  19. Postmaster

    Postmaster New Member

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    I apologise for that.. But I wasn't attacking, I was trying to draw anyone into an fair attacking match with my intension of exposing human beings.. Never worked I apologise. Islam is a good faith. Its the humans you have to watch out for.
     
  20. Friend

    Friend In the Name of God

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    Salaamu Alyckum
    Postmaster ,Please just answer one question for me ,I need this information for my research, What does the Greek word "Periklytos" means in English.

    Thanks for you
     

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