Discussion in 'Politics and Society' started by Thomas, May 13, 2021.
... God be with and help them all.
And on cue, in my country, people remember they are anti-semites at heart. Because nothing expresses solidarity with all those affected by the violence in Israel and Palestine like a defaced Holocaust memorial or the attempt to smash a synagogue's doors.
How did the recent confrontation erupt and spiral out of control?
Depends how recent you mean..
Most western police forces agree that the best way of policing, is to have a police force that
has demographics that reflect its population.
I don't think that Israel operates like that, by the very nature of the state. It is "apartheid".
The Israeli police violated the holy sanctuary of the Al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem, smashing down its doors
in Ramadan. Hamas, who run the govt. in Gaza strip issued an ultimatum to Israel to leave the site which was
igmored, so they started firing rockets into Israel.
Most Muslims believe that Israel has an agenda that does not include living side-by-side in peace with Muslims.
President Trump, in 2017 gave the "green light" for Israel to move their capital to Jerusalem, against UN advice.
Need to know more?
I am very unhappy about the treatment of the Palestinian people.
That said, I don't think the apartheid comparison flies. For one, Gaza and the West Bank are militarily occupied territories as a result of several wars where Israel was attacked by its neighbors, whereas the South African policy of apartheid was to allocate areas of lower quality land for reasons of racist segregation. One of the most obvious characteristics of apartheid was the racist views of "race purity" that underlpinned apartheid in South Africa. Israel is about as ethnically diverse as it gets, and its official policies, as much as I disapprove, are not motivated by racism. I see nationalism, but not racism.
And unfortunately, Israel isn't the only state who is being cruel to the palestinian people. Egypt is making it every bit as hard for the inhabitants of Gaza to cross the border as Israel does. This in no way diminishes Israel's responsibility in my eyes, but I think it is important to remember that none of the neighbor states, historically, and today, "want" the Palestinians either. For the longest time, the Palestinans were treated as pawns by the Arab states.
Is that a genuine religious article of faith, or more like "Most Christians believe that the UK has an agenda that does not include Catholics and Protestants living side by side in peace in northern Ireland"?
I think to get a more complete view of the situation, the agenda of Hamas needs to be mentioned too, as they certainly don't believe in living peacefullg side-by-side with Israel.
That's why I asked @Ahanu how recent?
Do we really want to get into the whole story of WWI & WWII and the UK Balfour agreement,
and the mass emigration of Jews to Palestine etc.?
That's absurd ! Naturally, no nation wants to be flooded by immigrants [ ahhem ],
but they live side-by-side and don't fire rockets at each other.
It's reality, I'm afraid.
Israel is a modern secular state which was founded politically due to a new world order due to World war.
It was never going to work. It is a pipe-dream. Ethnic Israeli Jews do not have a right to land due to an ancient scripture.
I wonder why? Perhaps you think they should all dive into the sea and drown? They are hemmed in !
I am very wary of getting into this thread.
Why did Israel storm the mosque in the first place? Was it to protect the safety of its citizens? Surely it was not done lightly? I am asking because I don't know why it happened.
Is the conflict primarily a religious one?
Islam in Israel
Don't blame you .. who in their right mind wants to live in Israel ?
Almighty God knows best.
I don't see a Palestinian police force violating the Jewish area on the Temple mount.
There is an agenda of evicting Palestinians from the Muslim quarter of Jerusalem. [Sheikh Jarrah ]
One has to ask why
It is also interesting to note that the headquarters of the Israeli police have been in that area since the
formation of the Israeli state.
Kiryat Menachem Begin, named after former Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin and also known as Kiryat HaMemshala, is a complex of government buildings in East Jerusalem located between Sheikh Jarrah in the north, adjacent to Mount Scopus in the east and Ammunition Hill in the west
The Kiryat Menachem Begin complex serves as home to several government offices, along with the main government complex in Givat Ram. It also includes the National Headquarters of the Israel Police.
I was addressing the comparison you made with Apartheid South Africa. Not sure how your response speaks to that.
By Israel, and on one side, by Egypt, a Muslim state. So the situation is ugly and complex, rather than a ugly and good vs bad.
Also, to be driven into the sea to drown, that's been a staple war cry directed at Israel by its enemies for as long as it existed. Never seen it turned around like that, I admit.
Well, all property originated in theft, if you want to go all the way. Nobody in their right mind would accuse the German speaking Swiss of not having a right to their land, not even if they have legends to justify taking the land from the romanized Celts living there. But in the case of Israel, a double standard seems to apply in modern discourse. Israel must be extra pure, somehow, conform to higher ideals? So we don't have to?
No easy answers, that's for sure:
It's not a Muslim state, it was taken over by the military.
A Muslim majority nation, yes.
What? Not here in the UK for a long time
You've lost me .. why are Muslims being evicted from their homes in Sheikh Jarrah .. do you know?
Perhaps you agree with Trump, that the descendants of Isaac are justified in claiming their
Capital as Jersualem due to their religion, whereas the descendants of Ismael should be subservient
Whatever ... I heard one Arab commentator say that the 'troubles' play in Netanyahu's favour – it takes the gaze away from his impending trial (set to begin 24 May) following an indictment on charges of bribery and corruption. A crisis in Gaza would suggest a postponement. A 'strong response' ensures his continued support of the political right.
Whatever ... innocent people on both sides are getting blown up ...
Correct. I doubt whether Trump or the state of Israel consider they have any blame.
Why did Israel and the US collaborate in "moving the capital to Jerusalem" ?
Who are the Palestinians fighting?
I totally agree that it is unacceptable to fire rockets into Israel.
However, as in Northern Ireland,
we have the stance of the US refusing to talk to "Hamas" just as Margaret Thatcher refused to talk to IRA etc.
The capital is not going to be transferred back to Tel-Aviv .. we all know that. Let's not pretend that Trump didn't
know what he was doing.
Desperation breeds evil. Those who claim the moral high-ground have a duty to all. The Claim of "terrorism"
[ by imperial powers ] is not helping any of the people who are being killed and oppressed right now.
That is a very uninformed view.
In 1970, Israel enacted a law to allow Jews to reclaim property which they owned in East Jerusalem, despite having already been given expropriated Palestinian-owned property in compensation. This asymmetry has been pointed out by numerous observers.
This arrangement does not exist in the rest of the West Bank, as the Israeli government decided that it would create tension, risk public order and lead to equivalent and much more numerous claims by West Bank Palestinians to reclaim their property in Israel.
Aryeh King, a deputy mayor of Jerusalem and one of the founders of the Ma'ale HaZeitim settler compound, told the New York Times that the Sheikh Jarrah property dispute was part of a municipal strategy to create “layers of Jews” throughout East Jerusalem
I would also like to say, that the vast majority of Muslims in the world would not accept violation
of Masjid Aqsa.
Whatever Israel has in mind for a Jerusalem capital, can never succeed.
Not even a nuclear war would change that
Fortunately for mankind, I believe Jesus will eventually return at the appointed time.
It certainly seems to be getting closer.
Here's a video about the issue posted on YouTube today from Vice News.
I cannot sympathize with the guy that was like, "Hey, I am entitled to live in this home. The people that were evicted from here better be happy it's me and not someone else who is a lot more unpleasant."
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