The Howling Gateway

RJM Corbet said:
What concourse hath Christ with Belial?

Eventually it's going to become the Faust bargain here.
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Actually, Djinn are not analogous to the Christian devils. They're more like the Fairies, Elfs, Sidhe, Dwarfs, Vela - mythological inhabitants of this world, not some hell realm. They have families and are concerned with similar concerns as humans. They're not out to strike a faustian bargain.

I have heard that in Islam, you can't sell your soul to the devil - it doesn't belong to you in the first place, but to God. Is this correct, @muhammad_isa ? Similarly, I have heard that hell is administered by angels, in Islam, not devils, or Djinn.

So dealing with the Djinn is more like dealing with a local fairy than with Mephistopheles. At least, that's how I understand them. But I'm not Muslim.
 
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RJM Corbet said:
What concourse hath Christ with Belial?

Eventually it's going to become the Faust bargain here. The Robert Johnson crossroads. What essential life force do you give, for the demonic assistance? What does the demon take from you? Does the djinn get to enjoy material life as a part of you -- bit by bit, and piece by piece, until you're living in the broom closet?
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Belial is the Spirit of the Earth and the North. The Sixty-eight Spirit of the Shemhamforasch, who is a Might King, Without Master. Belial brings self-initiation and development to the Karcist who may summon and invoke him, he holds the gateway to aspects of the mind which control speech and thought patterns. Christ, from the Greek χριστός (chrīstós), meaning "anointed one" would fit like a crown upon the King of the North and the material world!

There is no Faustian 'pact' with a devil or gift of essential life-force in Goetic Majiq. The Crossroads is the realm of Papa Legba from the Vodoun Pantheon. A spiritual creature is invited into the Karcist's ritual chamber as one would invite a friend into their living room. After this spiritual creature departs, the Karcist is left with something of great value, as payment, the Karcist promises to further the spiritual creature's global conscious awareness.

Broom closet? You watch too many movies and obviously read the wrong books :rolleyes:
 
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Do you know about The Sacred Magic of Abra Melin the Mage that Crowley was practicing -- that involves binding powerful demons such as Beelzebub to do the bidding of the magician?

The mage needs to ensure complete purity to keep protection against these angry 'howling' entities turning on him in revenge.

A dangerous business?
 
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Cino said:
I have heard that in Islam, you can't sell your soul to the devil - it doesn't belong to you in the first place, but to God. Is this correct, @muhammad_isa ?
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The soul is "of G-d" and will eventually return to Him .. yes.

Cino said:
Similarly, I have heard that hell is administered by angels, in Islam, not devils, or Djinn.
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G-d is the Greatest of all. He is the ultimate Sovereign.
King of Kings, and Lord of Lords.
Alleluliah.

.."playing about" with devils, whether they be of men or jinn, is asking for trouble.
There are "good and bad" jinn, just like humans.
..hence the notion of black and white magic.

It is ascribing partners to G-d, if one thinks they can achieve something by meddling in such magic.
 
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muhammad_isa said:
It is ascribing partners to G-d, if one thinks they can achieve something by meddling in such magic.
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Is this the view of all/most Muslims? Some, like Sufi Bushra Bibi, mentioned earlier, believe it acceptable to work with Djinns?
 
Just a brief reminder, this is the Magick sub-forum. It's great that you all join the discussion here, or followed my request for clarification! Thank your for that.

If you personally don't practice magic(k), or the practice is frowned upon in your own tradition, your are welcome to state this about your tradition. This is interfaith dialogue, we don't have to agree on everything.

In this interfaith spirit, please refrain from condemning or questioning the validity of other people's beliefs. Magicians engage in practices which, in other traditions, may be considered dangerous or forbidden, this is one defining aspect of the Magical tradition, and it deserves the same respect as the big wold religions here on Interfaith.org.
 
I'm not disrespecting. I'm asking questions. I apologise if I gave the impression
 
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muhammad_isa said:
It is ascribing partners to G-d, if one thinks they can achieve something by meddling in such magic.
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I understand that in Arabic, there are several terms which can be translated as "magic".

Sihr - sorcery, "black magic", which harms others.

Ruhaniya - spirituality, "white magic"

Asking a person from Morocco, say, about magic in Islam, I will get an answer along the lines of "we don't do that". Asking the same person about an amulet to help with pregnancy, they will say that their grandmother had one made, and it is a family heirloom.

Maybe there is a lot lost in translation?
 
RJM Corbet said:
Do you know about The Sacred Magic of Abra Melin the Mage that Crowley was practicing -- that involves binding powerful demons such as Beelzebub to do the bidding of the magician?
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Magic is seldom a quick shot operation, it requires lots of preparatory time, purification, as you say, training, the right time and place...

That said, workings like the Abramelin operation will force the magician to engage with their shadow side - everything the magician does not want to be. I can imagine worse ways to conceptualize it than an abyss full of powerful demons, which only the well-prepared are equipped to deal with.

Edited to add: Catholic mystics like John of the Cross, or Teresa of Avila described their encounter with the darkness, as well. They chose to express it in other words, but there are striking parallels in these accounts which can be compared with the accounts of heterodox mystics like Crowley.
 
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Cino said:
..I can imagine worse ways to conceptualize it than an abyss full of powerful demons, which only the well-prepared are equipped to deal with..
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What are the goals of such black magic?
What would one expect to achieve?
 
muhammad_isa said:
What are the goals of such black magic?
What would one expect to achieve?
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Personal development, for example.

Edit: Acknowledging one's own dark side is an important part of any spiritual path I can think of.
 
The discussion moved well away from a magical engagement with the Djinn, and towards a discussion of demonology.

I fon't mind discussing both here now, but want to point out that this is going on.
 
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RJM Corbet said:
Do you know about The Sacred Magic of Abra Melin the Mage that Crowley was practicing -- that involves binding powerful demons such as Beelzebub to do the bidding of the magician?

The mage needs to ensure complete purity to keep protection against these angry 'howling' entities turning on him in revenge.

A dangerous business?
Click to expand...
Crowley was a RHP magician. The grimoire of Abramelin, as most medieval grimoires, are Abrahamic-based and an antiquated approach founded on enslaving and threatening the spiritual creatures. Spiritual Creatures (djinn) do not need to be enslaved and bound, this is disrespectful of the creature and nothing good can ever come from it. Would you be helpful and compliant if you were imprisoned and threatened?
 
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'Amir Alzzalam said:
I don't know what you are asking.
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Sorry, no offence. You said djinns are mythological, and I asked if the term was being used in the sense of imaginary -- not real? Does this mean they are imaginary?

Would it matter? Would it affect the outcome of the magic ritual whether or not the entity was real or was a purely mental construct -- a placebo like effect?
 
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