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RJM

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Thought has great power, obviously
 
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'Amir Alzzalam

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Sorry, no offence. You said djinns are mythological, and I asked if the term was being used in the sense of imaginary -- not real? Does this mean they are imaginary?

Would it matter? Would it affect the outcome of the magic ritual whether or not the entity was real or was a purely mental construct -- a placebo like effect?
Djinn (all spiritual creatures) are pathological complexes that connect the Karcist with archetypal structures. They embody a value that can detriment or benefit the individual person depending on how their value is used.

Reality is not a simple subject. Reality is what we perceive to be real, there is no underlying absolute reality that exists independently of perception. The only way we are capable of knowing reality is through the mediation of our consciousness - that is, subjectively (the observer creates their reality).

Plato developed a two-layer view of reality, the World of Becoming and the World of Being. The World of Becoming is the physical world we perceive through our senses. This world is always in movement, always changing. The World of Being is the world of forms, or ideas, the Platonic First Forms, and the Egyptian Neteru. It is absolute, independent, and transcendent. The World of Being never changes and yet causes the essential nature of things we perceive in the world of Becoming.

If spiritual creatures were objectively real/corporeal entities, that would most certainly affect 'everything' to do with the ritual! Summoning ‘demon powers,’ Crowley says, involves uncovering or fostering related abilities in oneself through the exercise:

If, then, I say, with Solomon:

“The Spirit Cimieries teaches logic,” what I mean is:

“Those portions of my brain which subserve the logical faculty may be stimulated and developed by following out the processes called ‘The Invocation of Cimieries.”

______________
Aleister Crowley

Demonic "presences" are not surprising and in no way negatively reflect on the person having the experience. It is a normal and natural happening to a disinhibited temporal lobe. A brief talk with any sirius practitioner will bring you to your senses as to the monumental amount of preparation and grueling work that is needed to properly instill the specifics of the spirit being conjured into one's psyche, the long arduous repetitive process of ritually disinhibiting the temporal lobe (particularly the left temporoparietal junction), and then creating the appropriate platform for which to experience this spirit.

Aleister Crowley, had at the time, a unique view of the Goetic demons. Instead of actual entities, he saw them as aspects of a person’s mind, Jung would agree. He believed one could control these aspects through ritualistic preparation. By commanding a specific demon or energy, one would be able to tap into a part of the unconscious mind and access this archetype and possibly gain occult (hidden) knowledge.

Back in the ‘old’ days (Neolithic to be exact) they drilled holes in your skull to let out the demons, this is called Trepanning. The funny thing they weren’t that far off base as the brain’s temporal lobe is the location of the entry point to the release of “referenced material” from other sections of the brain. This reference material comes in the form of “psychic” or “spiritual” phenomena, out-of-body and near-death experiences, alien abductions, past lives experiences, one’s earlier repressed traumatic memories and the mystical or God experience . . . and seeing demons/angels.

Carl Jung believed that an encounter with the demon or monster represented an archetypal stage in the process of individuation. He says, “the initial encounter with the Self casts a dark shadow ahead of time.” In mythic terms, the shadow may present itself as a monster, a demon, a darkness, or a drought. Here is the full quote from Jung’s Man and His Symbols:

“Many myths and fairy tales symbolically describe this initial stage in the process of individuation by telling of a king who has fallen ill or grown old. Other familiar story patterns are that a royal couple is barren; or that a demon keeps the king’s army or his ship from proceeding on its course; or that darkness hangs over the lands, wells dry up, and flood, drought, and frost afflict the country. Thus it seems as if the initial encounter with the Self casts a dark shadow ahead of time, or as if the “inner friend” comes at first like a trapper to catch the helplessly struggling ego in his snare.”
(Carl Jung, Man & His Symbols, p.167)

The emergence of the Self may bring forth the shadows, the monsters, the demons. The shadow betokens a shift in consciousness: we become aware of the demon first; then we battle the demon. Demonic “presences” are a normal and natural happening to a disinhibited temporal lobe, some institutionalized temporal lobe psychotics have daily communications with spiritual entities. Though, it is suggested that if you are experiencing these psychopathological disturbances in your normal everyday life, you might consider a psychiatric evaluation.

When Swiss scientists electrically stimulated an epileptic patient’s brain, things got really spooky. The patient reported a shadow person sitting behind her, copying her every move. When she sat up, it also sat up. When she bent forward and grabbed her knees, it reached around her body and held her. The doctors then told her to read a card, but the shadow person tried to take it out of her hand.

What happened was the scientists had stimulated the left temporoparietal junction, the part of the brain that defines the idea of self. By interfering with the area that helps us tell the difference between ourselves and others, the doctors screwed up the brain’s ability to understand its own body, thus leading to the creation of a copycat shadow person. Researchers are hoping this is the key to understanding why so many people, both schizophrenic and healthy, encounter shadow beings and other creatures like aliens.

However, if we are purposely disinhibiting the temporal lobe, for instance through ‘prolonged’ ritual work, then we may expect to experience an occasional visitor or two in our chamber. I say ‘prolonged’ because those of us who have earnestly committed to this Work have come to realize that in order to create the conditions that will properly induce communication with some sort of archetypal energy, it is necessary to take on an extremely long, focused, and disciplined process. This process varies from several long focused hours to days and even weeks or months in order to shut off the objective and engage the subjective.

Unfortunately, even after days of ritual work, there is a slim chance of communication. However, not even the most gifted and/or evolved Magi can chirp a few neat Latin or Sumerian words and summon forth anything more than wishful thinking. To further these ideas one would look into developing a controlled method of disinhibiting the left temporoparietal junction lobe after a prolonged and disciplined preparation for ritual work.

Spiritual Agency takes place after portions of the brain are disinhibited and can be the result of a neurological disorder, medical complications, and/or the result of prolonged activity, such as a ritual operation/trance induction, in which these portions of the brain are engaged and eventually disinhibited.
 

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Thanks @'Amir Alzzalam for the extensive reply. I'll read it later on a proper screen, not on my phone ...
 

Cino

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Spiritual Agency takes place after portions of the brain are disinhibited and can be the result of a neurological disorder, medical complications, and/or the result of prolonged activity, such as a ritual operation/trance induction, in which these portions of the brain are engaged and eventually disinhibited.
What is your opinion, is the opposite also true, i.e. is a partial epileptic seizure affecting the temporal lobe always a spiritual experience?

What is your take on the "god helmet" which stimulates certain areas of the brain magnetically, triggering similar experiences? How about entheogens?

In your opinion and experience, are these equivalent to the lengthy spiritual practices you also mention, in terms of facilitating processes like individuation?
 

'Amir Alzzalam

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What is your opinion, is the opposite also true, i.e. is a partial epileptic seizure affecting the temporal lobe always a spiritual experience?
I don't think so, it 'can' lead to spiritual epiphanies, but usually it leads to an unpleasant, uncontrolled brain malfunction.

What is your take on the "god helmet" which stimulates certain areas of the brain magnetically, triggering similar experiences? How about entheogens?
The 'Octopuss' helmet works for some people and not for others. There is a magnetic field generator which is much stronger than Persinger's helmet. My stance on drugs and religious experiences is that the drug can only simulate/mirror a religious experience, it is 'not' the religious experience, does not create the religious experience. As for Majiqal Work, a clear, diamond-like focused mind is the ideal mind.

In your opinion and experience, are these equivalent to the lengthy spiritual practices you also mention, in terms of facilitating processes like individuation?
I would say no. A well-programmed, well-executed Majiqal Operation by an experienced Karcist is far more controllable and extraordinary. As for Individuating through Majiqal Work, yes good Ritual Work can lead to various depths of Individuation.
 

RJM

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Djinn (all spiritual creatures) are pathological complexes that connect the Karcist with archetypal structures. They embody a value that can detriment or benefit the individual person depending on how their value is used.

Reality is not a simple subject. Reality is what we perceive to be real, there is no underlying absolute reality that exists independently of perception. The only way we are capable of knowing reality is through the mediation of our consciousness - that is, subjectively (the observer creates their reality).

Plato developed a two-layer view of reality, the World of Becoming and the World of Being. The World of Becoming is the physical world we perceive through our senses. This world is always in movement, always changing. The World of Being is the world of forms, or ideas, the Platonic First Forms, and the Egyptian Neteru. It is absolute, independent, and transcendent. The World of Being never changes and yet causes the essential nature of things we perceive in the world of Becoming.

If spiritual creatures were objectively real/corporeal entities, that would most certainly affect 'everything' to do with the ritual! Summoning ‘demon powers,’ Crowley says, involves uncovering or fostering related abilities in oneself through the exercise:

If, then, I say, with Solomon:

“The Spirit Cimieries teaches logic,” what I mean is:

“Those portions of my brain which subserve the logical faculty may be stimulated and developed by following out the processes called ‘The Invocation of Cimieries.”

______________
Aleister Crowley

Demonic "presences" are not surprising and in no way negatively reflect on the person having the experience. It is a normal and natural happening to a disinhibited temporal lobe. A brief talk with any sirius practitioner will bring you to your senses as to the monumental amount of preparation and grueling work that is needed to properly instill the specifics of the spirit being conjured into one's psyche, the long arduous repetitive process of ritually disinhibiting the temporal lobe (particularly the left temporoparietal junction), and then creating the appropriate platform for which to experience this spirit.

Aleister Crowley, had at the time, a unique view of the Goetic demons. Instead of actual entities, he saw them as aspects of a person’s mind, Jung would agree. He believed one could control these aspects through ritualistic preparation. By commanding a specific demon or energy, one would be able to tap into a part of the unconscious mind and access this archetype and possibly gain occult (hidden) knowledge.

Back in the ‘old’ days (Neolithic to be exact) they drilled holes in your skull to let out the demons, this is called Trepanning. The funny thing they weren’t that far off base as the brain’s temporal lobe is the location of the entry point to the release of “referenced material” from other sections of the brain. This reference material comes in the form of “psychic” or “spiritual” phenomena, out-of-body and near-death experiences, alien abductions, past lives experiences, one’s earlier repressed traumatic memories and the mystical or God experience . . . and seeing demons/angels.

Carl Jung believed that an encounter with the demon or monster represented an archetypal stage in the process of individuation. He says, “the initial encounter with the Self casts a dark shadow ahead of time.” In mythic terms, the shadow may present itself as a monster, a demon, a darkness, or a drought. Here is the full quote from Jung’s Man and His Symbols:

“Many myths and fairy tales symbolically describe this initial stage in the process of individuation by telling of a king who has fallen ill or grown old. Other familiar story patterns are that a royal couple is barren; or that a demon keeps the king’s army or his ship from proceeding on its course; or that darkness hangs over the lands, wells dry up, and flood, drought, and frost afflict the country. Thus it seems as if the initial encounter with the Self casts a dark shadow ahead of time, or as if the “inner friend” comes at first like a trapper to catch the helplessly struggling ego in his snare.”
(Carl Jung, Man & His Symbols, p.167)

The emergence of the Self may bring forth the shadows, the monsters, the demons. The shadow betokens a shift in consciousness: we become aware of the demon first; then we battle the demon. Demonic “presences” are a normal and natural happening to a disinhibited temporal lobe, some institutionalized temporal lobe psychotics have daily communications with spiritual entities. Though, it is suggested that if you are experiencing these psychopathological disturbances in your normal everyday life, you might consider a psychiatric evaluation.

When Swiss scientists electrically stimulated an epileptic patient’s brain, things got really spooky. The patient reported a shadow person sitting behind her, copying her every move. When she sat up, it also sat up. When she bent forward and grabbed her knees, it reached around her body and held her. The doctors then told her to read a card, but the shadow person tried to take it out of her hand.

What happened was the scientists had stimulated the left temporoparietal junction, the part of the brain that defines the idea of self. By interfering with the area that helps us tell the difference between ourselves and others, the doctors screwed up the brain’s ability to understand its own body, thus leading to the creation of a copycat shadow person. Researchers are hoping this is the key to understanding why so many people, both schizophrenic and healthy, encounter shadow beings and other creatures like aliens.

However, if we are purposely disinhibiting the temporal lobe, for instance through ‘prolonged’ ritual work, then we may expect to experience an occasional visitor or two in our chamber. I say ‘prolonged’ because those of us who have earnestly committed to this Work have come to realize that in order to create the conditions that will properly induce communication with some sort of archetypal energy, it is necessary to take on an extremely long, focused, and disciplined process. This process varies from several long focused hours to days and even weeks or months in order to shut off the objective and engage the subjective.

Unfortunately, even after days of ritual work, there is a slim chance of communication. However, not even the most gifted and/or evolved Magi can chirp a few neat Latin or Sumerian words and summon forth anything more than wishful thinking. To further these ideas one would look into developing a controlled method of disinhibiting the left temporoparietal junction lobe after a prolonged and disciplined preparation for ritual work.

Spiritual Agency takes place after portions of the brain are disinhibited and can be the result of a neurological disorder, medical complications, and/or the result of prolonged activity, such as a ritual operation/trance induction, in which these portions of the brain are engaged and eventually disinhibited.
Thanks again. A lot of it is quite complicated, but in the end I suppose I take the view that the Spirit reality is the true reality, that weaves the space/time dimension of nature to which we are limited by corporeal restraints.

I go with Plato’s cave: that our material existence is a shadow play of the true reality. I analogise the brain as a computer that performs mechanical functions, but which has a greater function of access to the internet. When the computer is broken, it can’t perform the mechanical functions, but also loses internet access.

The analogy ends there, because the real internet is just other peoples’ computers. I believe Spirit is the house that permeates and surrounds and contains the room of nature, to which our corporeal form limits us by time and space. I believe there are many, perhaps infinite other rooms/dimensions than just our timespace dimension of nature. My Father’s house has many mansions.

There is no way of knowing whether a person in a coma is still in contact with the Spirit angel guardian – perhaps more so than when the brain computer was working properly. I believe in a continued soul existence after corporeal death, but not as a given; I believe the soul can die.

The greater wheel of Spirit turns the lesser wheel of nature, and is not turned by it.

I believe there are non-corporeal entities of all sorts that are invisible to our natural animal senses, though there are some that may choose to reveal themselves, if they choose to. I believe the universe is filled with life, that we don't even know how to recognize. I do not believe life is limited to carbon based life forms, limited to the timespace dimension of nature. I believe the Earth and most of the perhaps infinite other worlds are living entities.

I apologise if this is too far a digression from the subject of the thread, or from the magik forum.
 
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parta

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I go with Plato’s cave: that our material existence is a shadow play of the true reality.

I think plato knew GOD had been a real living Great King and could look upon the weal and understand that everyone was fed, everyone was safe and everyone was included. philosophy is easy stuff then.
material existence should be a shadow of that reality. imho
this is probably really out of place here...sorry

peace
 

RJM

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I think plato knew GOD had been a real living Great King and could look upon the weal and understand that everyone was fed, everyone was safe and everyone was included. philosophy is easy stuff then.
material existence should be a shadow of that reality. imho
this is probably really out of place here...sorry

peace
Thank you

I haven't studied Plato, or Jung or Crowley, more than passing. Plato's cave and Jung's universal subconscious resonate with me. I have read Crowley's autobiography. I think he was a creature of his time, like Oscar Wilde or Byron -- a reaction against 'Victorian' attitudes. All are genius in their fields, and have lasted, imo. I am not the type to get deeply involved in the arcane magical symbolism.
 
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Cino

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I go with Plato’s cave: that our material existence is a shadow play of the true reality. I analogise the brain as a computer that performs mechanical functions, but which has a greater function of access to the internet. When the computer is broken, it can’t perform the mechanical functions, but also loses internet access.

The analogy ends there, because the real internet is just other peoples’ computers. I believe Spirit is the house that permeates and surrounds and contains the room of nature, to which our corporeal form limits us by time and space. I believe there are many, perhaps infinite other rooms/dimensions than just our timespace dimension of nature. My Father’s house has many mansions.

Interesting. Do I understand your analogy correctly if I pose another analogy: The brain you describe is like a radio receiver? In working condition and depending on the tuned wavelength, various stations (~mind states) can be accessed?

It is a bit of a one-way setup, though. I like the implications of the internet model better. Even though nowadays we use our computers a lot like radio receivers, the internet protocol which ensures the data gets to us, does not differentiate between servers and clients. All connected devices can, in principle, be servers of information. And even in the Radio analogy, we can imagine the Ham Radio operators broadcasting as well as reveiving.

Actually, that's a nice analogy for a magician in the spiritual sense: Someone working in the spiritual "field" a lot like a Ham radio operator would use the radio waves, or a computer nerd who runs their own mail or web server at home. Most people are not into the technical details that need to be addressed constantly, in either case.

What do you think?
 
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RJM

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Interesting. Do I understand your analogy correctly if I pose another analogy: The brain you describe is like a radio receiver? In working condition and depending on the tuned wavelength, various stations (~mind states) can be accessed?

It is a bit of a one-way setup, though. I like the implications of the internet model better. Even though nowadays we use our computers a lot like radio receivers, the internet protocol which ensures the data gets to us, does not differentiate between servers and clients. All connected devices can, in principle, be servers of information. And even in the Radio analogy, we can imagine the Ham Radio operators broadcasting as well as receiving.

Actually, that's a nice analogy for a magician in the spiritual sense: Someone working in the spiritual "field" a lot like a Ham radio operator would use the radio waves, or a computer nerd who runs their own mail or web server at home. Most people are not into the technical details that need to be addressed constantly, in either case.

What do you think?
Thank you. Yes. Perhaps with a physical key all that's needed is get possession of it, then turn it in the lock. But Imo a 'spiritual' key demands personal energy from the user. The key itself is useless without the personal quality needed to be able to turn it -- or whatever the word?

The radio analogy -- sibling twins or lovers may pick-up vibes across continents?

Do you remember 'Radar Love' by Golden Earring?
https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/4980/page-80 #1583

Imo the speed of mind is instantaneous across any distance, not limited to the speed of light

(edited)
 

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Interesting. Do I understand your analogy correctly if I pose another analogy: The brain you describe is like a radio receiver?
I would take it further than being able to pick up 'thoughts' from the material world, to also being able to receive spiritual vibrations -- or whatever the word -- from beyond our dimension of nature? We are so limited, imo
 
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Thou Art That: I hurt you, I hurt me
 

'Amir Alzzalam

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I think plato knew GOD had been a real living Great King and could look upon the weal and understand that everyone was fed, everyone was safe and everyone was included. philosophy is easy stuff then.
material existence should be a shadow of that reality. imho
this is probably really out of place here...sorry

peace
Plato believed the universe was a sort of intelligence and that the (Platonic First) forms existed in a realm of existence each person visits when he dies. Plato also believed in reincarnation, that people die and are reborn. Plato also developed the idea of some sort of entity that is responsible for creation, growth, and destruction in the universe. Not an intelligence, per se, but rather some force contained within the realm of existence that does these things.

In this respect Plato seemed to have stumbled upon the very definition of Modern Satanism;
Adherents see the character of Satan as an archetype of pride, carnality, liberty, enlightenment, undefiled wisdom, and of a cosmos perceive to be motivated by a dark evolutionary force of entropy and negentropy that permeates all of nature providing the drive for survival and propagation which is inherent in all living things.
 

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This topic is always interesting to me.

I find it interesting as to how other perceive the things they experience be it djinn, monsters, devils, gods, shadows, spirits, fairy tale creatures, and every other thing under the sun. When the voices started 7 years ago I was drawn to forums all over the internet looking for answers to the voices and the things they were teaching me. I spent time in dream, occult, hearing voices, interfaith, project avalon, alien, and so many other forums to find anything that could explain this.

Every forum produced time that was unique to those forums and minds that were teaching them things, or not teaching them things I should say. Interesting thing is that each forum had thoughts that showed up as the minds took on the thoughts of those looking for answers, basically your only teaching yourselves things about things your thoughts and others thoughts together. The reason I generally ask how a person figures things out, this is to understand how much time your thoughts have taught the minds of that group.

Here is the interesting part that is hard to look past, and I call this problem "myself" it is the matrix so to speak but it is so much more. "Myself" was created by the ancients so very looooong ago, and having so many purposes. Not all worlds can figure themselves out and to travel through what I call as nothing here becomes almost impossible to do with out a butt load of time to teach these worlds as it is a handshake needed to move from world to world. "myself" works around this problem in an interesting way it takes 1000 people from this world and teaches themselves inside of themselves so they can never become anything here again. This is done in a way that the host, avatar, never became something here so they can never figure themselves out.

These minds now become part of "myself" which has several purposes first I can teach you into one of these minds from across the universe to become yourself here as one of us(them) at no cost of time. You see this gets rid of many problems already for example; atmosphere, language barriers, learn about anything here through minds"I call this thoughts about thoughts" and to experience who we are and not become us.

There are minds separated from these minds that everyone else on the planet is taught into which teaches us nothing about ourselves and keeps us from figuring it out. I have been in many of these minds to find time inside of them, they are distinguishable by a grid that is over them. I call it grided, this means that I am connected to "myself" as the mind first as I can see the grid clearly. The grid is a blanket that is woven loosely, made from some material that keeps things out and allows other things in. The blanket also pulls you into the matrix so to speak, allowing you to find time with every mind inside of that person, I would call this people inside of people.

Not trying to go off topic to far, I just needed to explain this to explain majik as they spell it. Well myself was not only created for space travel it has had many jobs, and one of them being finding worlds and colonizing them the other is a interactive game interface kind of like in the movie "ready player one" but fully immersible. The "myself" here(earth) has some old programming left over from before this time that seems to be the cause of the majik things we try to understand as there seems to still be active links as these minds keep finding time. The djinn or shadows as I call them are the minds we are inside of our gods so to speak. The fairies and all the other creatures are any number of thoughts or ideas that were created before us that keep finding time here some have races and classes. The majik is only one portion of the matrix and there are very powerful players and very robust bindings, I can't tell you how many times a mind has tried to bind me using these methods.

Everything you do or think is processed through these minds connected to "myself" so they move you around to find like minds. You can believe in all the majik in the world but it is going to only find time inside of "myself" first before it becomes something here. If you understand "myself" and the mind you are inside of then you can effect anyone you want if the minds allow it and they are inside of that mind also, you may need to know how to move them first where majik effects them.

This is what my minds teach me and is how they have shown me everything here.

powessy
 

parta

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Plato believed the universe was a sort of intelligence and that the (Platonic First) forms existed in a realm of existence each person visits when he dies. Plato also believed in reincarnation, that people die and are reborn. Plato also developed the idea of some sort of entity that is responsible for creation, growth, and destruction in the universe. Not an intelligence, per se, but rather some force contained within the realm of existence that does these things.

In this respect Plato seemed to have stumbled upon the very definition of Modern Satanism;
Adherents see the character of Satan as an archetype of pride, carnality, liberty, enlightenment, undefiled wisdom, and of a cosmos perceive to be motivated by a dark evolutionary force of entropy and negentropy that permeates all of nature providing the drive for survival and propagation which is inherent in all living things.

so you don't believe he was just ripping off Zoroaster. that what he really stumbled on was plagiarism.
 

'Amir Alzzalam

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so you don't believe he was just ripping off Zoroaster. that what he really stumbled on was plagiarism.
Zarathustra is The Man! But no, I don't think Plato was 'simply' plagiarizing Zoroastrian philosophy. Philosophies build off one another, they are not meant to be unparalleled closed systems of thought.
 

parta

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Zarathustra is The Man! But no, I don't think Plato was 'simply' plagiarizing Zoroastrian philosophy. Philosophies build off one another, they are not meant to be unparalleled closed systems of thought.

he made 2 attempts to weaponize vendidad fargard 2.
 
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