Motivation for Life after Death

RJM

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But man is 'higher' than the animals and consciousness is not an emergent property of brain, imo. Spirit is the true reality. It's Plato's cave. Am just not too sure that 'universal cosmic justice would a convincing argument for the afterlife?
 

wil

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a figment of your imagination
Is man higher? Covid and other diseases make a good run at us.

Other animals are conscious....

Even studies on plants show communication of dangers and survival techniques as well as a symbiosis with other species for mutual benefit
..something we as a species cannot seem to grock...living in harmony with our fellow living things and earth is not something our species does well...if at all.
 

RJM

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Is man higher?
The highest and most intelligent form of life in the entire universe, unless we find superior aliens. Because there is no higher divine intelligence. This is the atheist conclusion?
.
Our continual f'ing up the life we are offered!
Offered?
 

wil

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The highest and most intelligent form of life in the entire universe, unless we find superior aliens. Because there is no higher divine intelligence. This is the atheist conclusion?
.Offered?
There is no higher divine intelligence than man?

Me thinks that is arrogant as using the kings thumb for an inch or one sol as the unit of measurement for stars...

Offered? Yes. We are provided with a lot...offered a lot...and we take and take tonour own destruction...so says genesis.
 

RJM

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There is no higher divine intelligence than man?
Unless we encounter material aliens superior to us, man is the highest-end material intelligence the universe has produced? There is no evidence of other material life forms. The possibility of non-terrestrial material life in the universe is purely based on man's assumption that 'we can't be alone'

There is zero other reason to assume that any higher material intelligence than man exists
 

Tone Bristow-Stagg

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There is zero other reason to assume that any higher material intelligence than man exists

Well then there is zero reason not to believe other intelligent life forms exist.

Baha'u'llah has offered to us what science will find.

"Regarding the passage on p. 163 of the 'Gleanings'; the creatures which Bahá’u’lláh states to be found in every planet cannot be considered to be necessarily similar or different from human beings on this earth. Bahá’u’lláh does not specifically state whether such creatures are like or unlike us. He simply refers to the fact that there are creatures in every planet. It remains for science to discover one day the exact nature of these creatures."

Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance p. 478

I see it is all about the levels of Spirit and of the Conscious capacity of those levels of Spirit.

"The earth has its inhabitants, the water and the air contain many living beings and all the elements have their nature spirits, then how is it possible to conceive that these stupendous stellar bodies are not inhabited? Verily, they are peopled, but let it be known that the dwellers accord with the elements of their respective spheres. These living beings do not have states of consciousness like unto those who live on the surface of this globe: the power of adaptation and environment moulds their bodies and states of consciousness, just as our bodies and minds are suited to our planet. For example, we have birds that live in the air, those that live on the earth and those that live in the sea...

The components of the sun differ from those of this earth, for there are certain light and life-giving elements radiating from the sun. Exactly the same elements may exist in two bodies, but in varying quantities. For instance, there is fire and air in water, but the allotted measure is small in proportion. They have discovered that there is a great quantity of radium in the sun; the same element is found on the earth, but in a much smaller degree. Beings who inhabit those distant luminous bodies are attuned to the elements that have gone into their composition of their respective spheres."

‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Divine Philosophy, p. 114-115

Regards Tony
 
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RJM

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Well then there is zero reason not to believe other intelligent life forms exist.
That is why I'm qualifying material life forms. Anything else requires disembodied intelligence. Materialists reject this possibility, assuming consciousness and intelligence are an emergent product of material brain activity?
 

Tone Bristow-Stagg

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Afterlife...lol...the perverbial carrot to your justice/morality stick!

Justice? Life is. Volcanoes blow up...

As RJ posits...why just man?

Don't dolphins and whales and trees and jellyfish and viruses deserve an afterlife too?

Oh does that sound silly? Yes...yes it does.

We are not privileged to understand what becomes of the Spirit when we leave the consciousness of this matrix. There is now much offered that we can consider though.

There are 5 levels of Spirit in our conscience reality. Each of these levels of Spirt interact with all the worlds of God.

Baha'u'llah offered this about the human Spirit, and thus is the only way we can know that there is life beyond this matrix.

It is contained within this quote. Of course, I understand some may not see Baha'u'llah as an authority, so I post this FYI.

"All praise to the unity of God, and all honor to Him, the sovereign Lord, the incomparable and all-glorious Ruler of the universe, Who, out of utter nothingness, hath created the reality of all things, Who, from naught, hath brought into being the most refined and subtle elements of His creation, and Who, rescuing His creatures from the abasement of remoteness and the perils of ultimate extinction, hath received them into His kingdom of incorruptible glory. Nothing short of His all-encompassing grace, His all-pervading mercy, could have possibly achieved it. How could it, otherwise, have been possible for sheer nothingness to have acquired by itself the worthiness and capacity to emerge from its state of non-existence into the realm of being?

Having created the world and all that liveth and moveth therein, He, through the direct operation of His unconstrained and sovereign Will, chose to confer upon man the unique distinction and capacity to know Him and to love Him—a capacity that must needs be regarded as the generating impulse and the primary purpose underlying the whole of creation…. Upon the inmost reality of each and every created thing He hath shed the light of one of His names, and made it a recipient of the glory of one of His attributes. Upon the reality of man, however, He hath focused the radiance of all of His names and attributes, and made it a mirror of His own Self. Alone of all created things man hath been singled out for so great a favor, so enduring a bounty."

https://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-27.html

Regards Tony
 

Tone Bristow-Stagg

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That is why I'm qualifying material life forms. Anything else requires disembodied intelligence. Materialists reject this possibility, assuming consciousness and intelligence are an emergent product of material brain activity?

Thanks for the clarity. Yes consciousness is not contained within the flesh brain.

Regards Tony
 
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RJM

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Beings who inhabit those distant luminous bodies are attuned to the elements that have gone into their composition of their respective spheres."
I support this. There is life everywhere -- often far superior to man -- but it is not enveloped by the carbon or silicon material life forms that man is able to recognize.
 

Ahanu

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Not just mine but every evolutionary scientist dead or alive. What evidence do you find that is otherwise?

Speaking of evolutionary scientists, I would add evolution only takes us so far. Time for new models since evolution shows space-time isn't fundamental. See Donald Hoffman.

"When you say space-time is doomed, this is a shot to the heart of the whole conceptual framework we've had in science. Not to the scientific method, but to the fundamental ontology . . ."
-Donald Hoffman​


Where do you find consciousness in the objective universe?

As I hinted at before, the transition from particles to stars to minds is proof of consciousness. Well, for me it is obvious. It's like there's some force pulling matter into knowledge of itself.

Let's take a look at the definition of Consciousness: the state of being awake and aware of one's surroundings.

Well, I wouldn't say it is the definition of consciousness, just like I wouldn't say I have provided the definition of justice in its entirety. Consciousness is also awareness of one's subjective realm, not just of one's outside surroundings. That subjective experience is called qualia in philosophical circles. Example: perhaps you look up and see a cloud that reminds you of an elephant. Not only that, but it evokes a memory of an elephant you rode on a trip last year. That entire subjective experience is qualia.

Where do you find the objective universe to be "awake and aware of its surroundings?"

You are the proof.
 

Cino

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Thanks for the clarity. Yes consciousness is not contained within the flesh brain.

I think human consciousness is contained within the brain - when the brain is phisically or chemically modified the consciousness which emerges from its function is altered.

Examples: lobotomy, degenerative neurological diseases like dementia, partial epileptic seizures, mind-altering substances, psychiatric medications.

There is an interesting thread on OBEs on this forum. OBEs seem to imply that human consciousness can "detach" from the "flesh brain". I'm not convinced, but the topic is fascinating.
 
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Cino

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Lol...that is the motivation for the afterlife!

Our continual f'ing up the life we are offered!

A less snarky way to put it, if I understand @Ahanu's OP about justice correctly, would be "Someone has to pay for what happened to X". Which is a pretty powerful motivation for believing in a world to come, since this rarely ever happens in this one.
 

'Amir Alzzalam

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Can this subjectivity be shared across individuals, in your view?
I would say your subjective reality is solely yours, a culmination of who you are, who you were, and how you process your information is unique unto yourself.
 

'Amir Alzzalam

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Speaking of evolutionary scientists, I would add evolution only takes us so far. Time for new models since evolution shows space-time isn't fundamental. See Donald Hoffman.

"When you say space-time is doomed, this is a shot to the heart of the whole conceptual framework we've had in science. Not to the scientific method, but to the fundamental ontology . . ."
-Donald Hoffman​
I can't see why the Time/Space continuum would be irrelevant to Evolution as it records evolutionary forces, such as natural selection, changes as species and the environment they inhabit also changes. The interaction of the spatial and temporal aspects of evolution are critical in understanding the true evolutionary history of species.​



As I hinted at before, the transition from particles to stars to minds is proof of consciousness. Well, for me it is obvious. It's like there's some force pulling matter into knowledge of itself
You can repeat this as many times as you want, you still haven't provided any explanation or actual evidence. Consciousness is evolutionary, it evolved in sentient creatures and reached its zenith, so far, in homo sapiens. Outside of sentient creatures, consciousness doesn't seem to exist anywhere else, and specifically it is not the objective universe. Show me how this vast objective universe exhibits any kind of state of being awake and aware of its surroundings. What we do see the objective universe as is a mechanism of entropy and negentropy, nothing more.



Well, I wouldn't say it is the definition of consciousness, just like I wouldn't say I have provided the definition of justice in its entirety. Consciousness is also awareness of one's subjective realm, not just of one's outside surroundings. That subjective experience is called qualia in philosophical circles. Example: perhaps you look up and see a cloud that reminds you of an elephant. Not only that, but it evokes a memory of an elephant you rode on a trip last year. That entire subjective experience is qualia.
I take my definition from scholars who create these definitions, what else can we do, invent our own definitions? Quale is a much debated concept in philosophical circles, I won't get into that at all. I prefer to use 'subjective universe'.



You are the proof.
Very romantic statement, however, I Am Not the Universe, I Am a product of Evolution and my Isolate Consciousness.
 

RJM

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We are limited to the perception of our five animal senses of sight, hearing and so on, and our scientific instruments are ingenious extensions of the range of our senses. But there is no reason to assume that consciousness or the universe is limited to what man's senses -- or instruments -- can perceive and detect.

All we can conclude from our human knowledge of the 4% of the material universe that we are able to detect and measure, is that we are able to know a little bit, limited to our material senses and measurements?
 
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RJM

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A flea doesn't know very much about the dog it's on -- much less of any existence beyond the dog

A silly, arrogant little flea to claim certain understanding of consciousness and the universe, imo
 
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Cino

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Say a leader living in the utmost luxury knowingly chooses to send thousands of poor soldiers to their deaths in a battle over a petty issue that could have been avoided. He dies. That is it? Nothing? He vanishes? Eventually what this tyrannical leader has done will be forgotten by posterity. What then for those who try to salvage some meaning by placing it on the memories of future generations that will also fade away? The universe remains indifferent to such suffering? It continues churning out unimaginable inequalities in health, wealth, and so many other areas in its evolutionary trajectory - only to leave those that have been wronged and forgotten unavenged? As if they didn't exist at all? As if the concept of "being wronged" is itself the wrong label?

I'd like to get back to the topic of justice. Sorry I derailed the thread by mentioning other things.

You write, "The universe remains indifferent to such suffering? It continues churning out unimaginable inequalities in health, wealth, and so many other areas in its evolutionary trajectory - only to leave those that have been wronged and forgotten unavenged?"

This bit of the universe which I call "me" certainly is not indifferent to suffering, no.

What is your religion's take on the question? Does God allow injustice in order to repect free will? Does God allowing natural catastrophes mean he is indifferent? Who takes responsibility for the wrongs that happened to the victims of natural catastrophes?
 
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