Current suppression of Baha'is in Iran

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

B

Badger, your quote with "The Bahai theocracy, on the contrary, ..." is incomplete, making it misleading. The letter reads, "The Baha’i theocracy, on the contrary, is both divinely ordained as a system and, of course, based on the teachings of the Prophet Himself. This seems to reconcile the Guardian’s statement with Mr. Hofman’s."
David Hofman was one of the Bahais who believed in Bahai theocracy. He incorporated this belief into his commentary on the Will and Testament of Abdu'l-Baha, saying specifically that there had never been a theocracy, but there would be in the future. A study class in Los Angeles was reading Hofman's commentary, and noticed that it contradicts Shoghi Effendi on this point. For Shoghi Effendi, theocracies have existed and are a thing of the past, but for Hofman it is precisely the opposite. So Mrs. Oni finks, on behalf of the study class, wrote to ask for clarification.
By the way, the version of the Commentary that the study class was studying is not the same as the one currently published by George Ronald Publishers -- one glaring error in the older version have been corrected in the new version, and there are some minor changes.

Read more at

What about “the Bahai theocracy”?

“This seems to reconcile the Guardian’s statement with Mr. Hofman’s,” according to the secretary. What needs to be reconciled, in their concepts of theocracy?

senmcglinn.wordpress.com

Good to see you Sen. I guessed you would still be around in the background.

All the best, Regards Tony

 

[Sen McGlinn]

Do you think that Bahai would not be a theocracy, is not written to be a theocracy?
OK.... two questions, please?

In the event that, say, 80% of a country's people are Bahais, would these people carry on their lives under the rule of a government that the non-Bahai citizens had voted for?

Can you teach me about the reasons for the Bahai criminal legislation and sentences for offenders...when would these come in to practice?

Yes, if the system of government is a democracy, then everyone votes for the government, Bahai and non-Bahai. There's a UHJ policy to that effect:
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"In another national community where the number of believers had increased to the point where the population of some villages had become 100% or almost 100% Bahá'í, the House of Justice upheld the above principle and stated that in each such village while they should elect the Local Spiritual Assembly, they should continue to elect the Local Council as required by the Government, and the function of those two bodies should be kept distant, even if there memberships were identical."

(From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to the National Spiritual Assembly of Brazil, April 13, 1983)
========

The Bahai laws on criminal and security matters would come into effect whenever the government chose, because these matters are delegated to the national governments, not to the Bahai religious institutions.

"The one true God, exalted be His glory, hath ever regarded, and will continue to regard, the hearts of men as His own, His exclusive possession. All else, whether pertaining to land or sea, whether riches or glory, He hath bequeathed unto the Kings and rulers of the earth. >From the beginning that hath no beginning the ensign proclaiming the words "He doeth whatsoever He willeth" hath been unfurled in all its splendor before His 207 Manifestation. What mankind needeth in this day is obedience unto them that are in authority, and a faithful adherence to the cord of wisdom. The instruments which are essential to the immediate protection, the security and assurance of the human race have been entrusted to the hands, and lie in the grasp, of the governors of human society. This is the wish of God and His decree.

(Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, CII / p. 206)

There's a section of Gleanings that includes several such quotes about church and state. It's not there by accident. Shoghi Effendi knew that this was one of the topics the western Bahais were getting wrong.

 

[Sen McGlinn]

Tallying scores is quite childish for a civilized discussion about the issues, @badger. Are we going to have a civilized discussion or descend into tallying scores? If so, I would prefer not to have a discussion with you.



Well, you said it yourself: Sen McGlinn is one of the "most outstanding Baha'i history authorities" in your book of thought, isn't he? He believes church-state relations in the Baha'i Faith are similar to today's England - which is a departure from Cole's approach.

Both models are factually inaccurate. Both views assume there is one model of church-state relations. However, there is a third position that exists:

". . . this approach denies that Baha'u'llah intended to advocate for any singular particular model of relationship between Baha'i institutions and civil institutions, and that, consistent with his notion of social change and the principle of unity in diversity, He envisioned a future with a multiplicity of models of institutional relationships between church and state."​

-Roshan Danesh, Dimensions of Baha'i Law​

I believe this is the Baha'i position that makes the most sense of the Writings on this issue.

In 2009, Roshan Danesh wrote, in the Journal of Law and Religion, that "there are no explicit statements [in Bahai Scriptures] about the Universal House of Justice and civil institutions which necessitate a fully integrationist conclusion." It would appear that he hoped to find some basis there, and found none. In 2010, in his ‘Hegemony and Revelation’ article (Religious Studies and Theology 29.1 (2010) 123–138 ), he rejects ... "any claim that the intention of Baha’u’llah’s "new world order" is for Bahai political institutions, and the Bahai community, to claim, and acquire, temporal power" and attributes such views in the past to "popular Bahai discourse " (pp 136, 133). Fortunately, it is not that popular now, as the community matures.

I agree with Roshan that there are many possible church-state relationships in the envelope of Bahai teachings. I can prove it from Shoghi Effendi's writings. However there are two church-state relationships that are specifically excluded: theocracy and caesaropapism.

The multiplicity of church-state relationships possible within the envelope of the Bahai teachings is evident from the fact that Shoghi Effendi describes various stages of the relations between Bahai communities and their national governments, and says that different counties are at different stages in this sequence. All the stages after repression require the participation and consent of the Bahai community, so all of those relationships must be acceptable in terms of the Bahai teachings. QED

 

[Sen McGlinn]

I try to imagine what it might be like to live in a country governed by a Baha'i Assembly.......

Relax, that can never ever happen.
“Theirs is not the purpose,… to violate, under any circumstances, the provisions of their country’s constitution, much less to allow the machinery of their administration to supersede the government of their respective countries.”
(Shoghi Effendi, in The World Order of Baha’u’llah 66.)

The signature of that meeting should be the Spiritual Gathering (House of Spirituality) and the wisdom therein is that hereafter the government should not infer from the term “House of Justice” that a court is signified, that it is connected with political affairs, or that at any time it will interfere with governmental affairs. … (Tablets of Abdu’l-Baha Abbas vol. 1, page 5).

“The Administrative Order is not a governmental or civic body, it is to regulate and guide the internal affairs of the Bahá’í community; consequently it works, according to its own procedure, best suited to its needs. (letter on behalf of Shoghi Effendi, Messages to Canada, 276)

 

[Sen McGlinn]

Therefore........ why can't the UHJ announce that Bahai has no interests in forming any kind of World power, would never support its own army nor police force, will redact all its criminal laws and punishments as unnecessary and simply become a spiritual faith?

That's already done Badger:

"The Faith which this order serves, safeguards and promotes, is, it should be noted in this connection, essentially supernatural, supranational, entirely non-political, non-partisan, and diametrically opposed to any policy or school of thought that seeks to exalt any particular race, class or nation. (Shoghi Effendi, Summary Statement - 1947, Special UN Committee on Palestine)

"The signature of that meeting should be the Spiritual Gathering (House of Spirituality) and the wisdom therein is that hereafter the government should not infer from the term “House of Justice” that a court is signified, that it is connected with political affairs, or that at any time it will interfere with governmental affairs. … (Tablets of Abdu’l-Baha Abbas vol. 1, page 5).

Every nation must have a high regard for the position of its sovereign, must be submissive unto him, must carry out his behests, and hold fast his authority. The sovereigns of the earth have been and are the manifestations of the power, the grandeur and the majesty of God. This Wronged One hath at no time dealt deceitfully with anyone. Every one is well aware of this, and beareth witness unto it. Regard for the rank of sovereigns is divinely ordained, as is clearly attested by the words of the Prophets of God and His chosen ones. He Who is the Spirit (Jesus) — may peace be upon Him — was asked: “O Spirit of God! Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar or not?” And He made reply: “Yea, render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s and to God the things that are God’s.” (Baha'u'llah, (Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 89)

 

[Aupmanyav]

-- one glaring error in the older version have been corrected in the new version, and there are some minor changes.

Yeah, Bahaollah's message has been repeatedly changed by Abbas, Shoghi, their House of Justice and other Bahais. What comes out today is corrupted.

 

[TheLightWithin]

Search

August 03, 2022

• By RFE/RL's Radio Farda

Iranian Officials Restrict Movement Of Baha'is As Pressure Campaign Builds

Three Baha'i women -- Shaghayegh Khanehzarin, Zhila Sharafi, and Negar Ighani -- were arrested in Shiraz in June.
The Iran Human Rights Organization says Iranian authorities have installed electronic tags on nine Baha'i followers and is restricting their movement in another sign the government is increasing pressure on the group.

According to the Human Rights Activists News Agency (HRANA), the nine Baha'i members are allowed to travel within a radius of 500 meters of their residence for 304 days, effective August 2.

The nine were previously sentenced to one year in prison on a charge of "propaganda activity against the system through the promotion of Baha'iism."

The move comes amid renewed pressure and harassment against the Baha'is, with security agents arresting dozens of Baha'i followers in recent weeks and raiding the homes of hundreds of others.

The representative of the Baha'i community at the United Nations, along with several human rights groups, say a number of Baha'i houses in the village of Roshankooh in northern Iran were destroyed while agricultural land of several other Baha'is in the village were seized.

This village, where most of the residents are Baha'is, previously has been the scene of attacks by government forces who destroyed many homes.

"Following the attack on Tuesday [August 2], more than 200 Iranian government agents gathered the Baha'is in Roshankooh village, and they took their cell phones to prevent filming," Simin Fahandej, the representative of the Baha'i community at the United Nations, wrote on his Twitter account on August 2.

According to this Baha'i representative, agents used "heavy equipment" to demolish the houses.

The HRANA website, which covers human rights violations in Iran, also confirmed the destruction of "the houses of six Baha'i families in Roshankooh village of Sari by government bodies."

"About 20 hectares of agricultural land of the residents of this village were also fenced off and occupied," HRANA added.

Confirming the destruction of houses in Roshankooh village, Salman Sattari, the regional governor, claimed these houses "were built outside an authorized area and some were built on national lands."

A source close to the Baha'i families denied the claim saying the lands have a "documented history of more than 70 years."

Baha'is -- who number some 300,000 in Iran and comprise an estimated 5 million followers worldwide -- say they face systematic persecution in Iran, where their faith is not officially recognized by the constitution.

Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei has on several occasions called the Baha'i faith a cult and in a religious fatwa issued in 2018 forbade contact, including business dealings, with followers of the faith.

Since the Islamic Republic of Iran was established in 1979, hundreds of Baha'is have been arrested and jailed for their beliefs. At least 200 have been executed or were arrested and never heard from again.

Thousands more have been banned from receiving higher education or had their property confiscated, while vandals often desecrate Baha'i cemeteries.

With writing and reporting by Ardeshir Tayebi

https://www.rferl.org/a/iran-restricts-movement-bahais-/31972536.html

I wish it were possible to react with a sad face
I will put it here - and all its friends

This is a horrifying situation. Sickening. I can't stand this kind of outrage.

 

[TheLightWithin]

My freedom to reply on another Bahai thread/subject was withdrawn, no reason given. I'll keep clear of Bahai subjects, I think?

Did you not ask the reason?

 

[TheLightWithin]

and these ladies have been convicted of busting laws.

Busting laws?
Unjust laws?
Also the idea of harsher punishments is horrible and in defiance of human rights.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Bahais in Iran should desist from evangelism or leave the country. Then perhaps their situation would be better.

 

[RJM]

To explain what @Aupmanyav means: Baha'i is regarded as apostasy from Islam in Iran? Apostasy is not looked upon well in Islamic states ...

 

[Aupmanyav]

Going to UN or quoting what UN says is foolishness. UN cannot interfere in Iran. Iran already has the restrictions.

 

[RJM]

Going to UN or quoting what UN says is foolishness. UN cannot interfere in Iran. Iran already has the restrictions.

Christians and Jews are tolerated and allowed to practice, if they keep a low profile. But Baha'i are regarded as a special case of 'homegrown' apostasy. As you suggest, perhaps the state would pay them less attention if they were less vocal in Iran. I do not condone the state persecution -- I think it is horrible -- but it's obvious that other religions, particularly one regarded as apostate from Islam, would need to stay low to avoid trouble there? It's a radical shariah Islamic state: of course they're not interested in UN resolutions.

 

[RJM]

It is Iran under Ayatollah Khomeini that issued the fatwa against Salman Rushdie that is still in place, for disrespecting the Qur'an. The Muslim who kills him gets to paradise...

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Bahais in Iran should desist from evangelism or leave the country. Then perhaps their situation would be better.

Perhaps Justice is better served by understanding their situation.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Christians and Jews are tolerated and allowed to practice, if they keep a low profile. But Baha'i are regarded as a special case of 'homegrown' apostasy. As you suggest, perhaps the state would pay them less attention if they were less vocal in Iran. I do not condone the state persecution -- I think it is horrible -- but it's obvious that other religions, particularly one regarded as apostate from Islam, would need to stay low to avoid trouble there? It's a radical shariah Islamic state: of course they're not interested in UN resolutions.

One could consider why such a peaceful message has received such persecution. How Love can be so hated.

To understand this situation one must know the history, and also behind it all, we must also consider that even the Muslims await what the Christians wait for, for God to fulfil a promise.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

One could consider why such a peaceful message has received such persecution. How Love can be so hated.

To understand this situation one must know the history, and also behind it all, we must also consider that even the Muslims await what the Christians wait for, for God to fulfil a promise.

Regards Tony

Why aren't you there, Tony?

Don't they desperately need people like you, crusading on the ground in Iran?

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Why aren't you there, Tony?

Don't they desperately need people like you, crusading on the ground in Iran?

God puts us where we are RJM.

They do not need me, they are a tower of Faith, they are changing the world each day.

The world does not appreciate them yet.

To All those that work for the good of All humanity, good on you. God bless you one and all and God bless those apposed to such a peaceful world.

Regards Tony

 

[Ahanu]

Bahais in Iran should desist from evangelism or leave the country. Then perhaps their situation would be better.

Leave the country? Since you are so concerned about what they should do, then why don't you give those that want to leave the economic means to do so? What about those that cannot afford it?

And, even if you "desist from evangelism," that does not mean you are no longer immune to persecution. Historically, even some that were not Baha'is were accused of being Baha'is - and all in the name of opportunistic gain, power grabs, or whatever other sinister motivation that was secretly in mind. Maybe the accuser simply hated you and wanted your property. So they labeled you "Baha'i" and decided to take it.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Christians and Jews are tolerated and allowed to practice, if they keep a low profile. But Baha'i are regarded as a special case of 'homegrown' apostasy. As you suggest, perhaps the state would pay them less attention if they were less vocal in Iran. I do not condone the state persecution -- I think it is horrible -- but it's obvious that other religions, particularly one regarded as apostate from Islam, would need to stay low to avoid trouble there? It's a radical shariah Islamic state: of course they're not interested in UN resolutions.

That is written in Quran also. Dhimmis can exist in an Islamic countries only in submission.