Translation and the challenges it poses

Cino

Big Love! (Atheist mystic)
Admin
Messages
3,785
Reaction score
2,031
Points
108
Location
Germany
Nothing needs to change Cino. You don't know the language and that's why you are making such magnificently false statements. It's honestly unbelievable why people would do that.

Thanks for engaging so far. Ciao Cino. Have a great day.
Oh snap... whatever happened to your offer to answer my question?
 

Firedragon

Well-Known Member
Messages
207
Reaction score
33
Points
28
I am not saying that Sinhala or Pali have these sounds, but that Sanskrit does, and that the Sinhala script, due to its genesis, still has letters to represent these three different sibilant sounds.

Simply false Cino.

Let me know when you have read and considered what I wrote about the Patna Dhammapada's parallel verse in Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit.

I have responded to it already. What ever translation is only a translation, not the Pali tradition. Since you don't know any of these languages it's not possible to continue this dialogue with so much false information and statements you are making.
 

Firedragon

Well-Known Member
Messages
207
Reaction score
33
Points
28
Oh snap... whatever happened to your offer to answer my question?

You did not ask a question Cino. You made a statement because you don't know the language. You just said "that does not seem right" with out even the ability to read the script. So cannot answer such statements.

But if you do have a question I will answer. You should consider answering several questions i asked which you have so far avoided. But I know you cannot because you have not much knowledge of the language so I shall refrain from asking you for clarifications. So hope you understand, that if you have a question asked honestly I will answer. Not respond to statements arbitrarily made that is just nonsensical to respond to.
 

Firedragon

Well-Known Member
Messages
207
Reaction score
33
Points
28

Cino

Big Love! (Atheist mystic)
Admin
Messages
3,785
Reaction score
2,031
Points
108
Location
Germany
Simply false Cino.
Again, please give some additional support to your assertion.

How do you explain the presence of these three symbols in the Sinhala script? Do you have an alternate model for the evolution of the Sinhala writing system? I'm really interested, this stuff deeply interests me and I always love to learn more about it.
 

Cino

Big Love! (Atheist mystic)
Admin
Messages
3,785
Reaction score
2,031
Points
108
Location
Germany
I do not respond to some wikipedia link. And it's about sanskrit, not your absolutely ignorant statement about several pronunciations in payanu shayanna and gayanu shayanna. It's embarrassing to even read your comments.
So you have not really engaged with my point about the Patna Dhammapada parallel verse? My whole point is about Sanskrit. The Sinhala script can also be used to write Sanskrit. I don't really understand your aversion to discussing this.

This is not some kind of contest, in my view. I have no issue admitting the limits of my knowledge about Pali, I'm simply delighted to have someone else who is into this kind of thing, to exchange ideas and insights and to learn from those who know more. You seem knowledgeable, but so far, all I have got out of you is unsupported assertions about my ignorance, which is, frankly, frustrating, and is increasingly making me question whether you rally know Pali as well as you claim.
 

Firedragon

Well-Known Member
Messages
207
Reaction score
33
Points
28
Again, please give some additional support to your assertion.

How do you explain the presence of these three symbols in the Sinhala script? Do you have an alternate model for the evolution of the Sinhala writing system? I'm really interested, this stuff deeply interests me and I always love to learn more about it.

I have explained it. There is no alternative mode or anything. Just that you made a false claim and you should honestly take it back. that's the reason when I asked you how the second and third shayanna are pronounced since you claimed there were two different pronunciations you didnt answer.

Don't make false claims like that. It's not worth responding to when people make such false claims.

I have already told you that there no difference between both letters.

Please be kind enough to not make that type of comments on a language you don't know about Cino. I cant understand why people do this really. It's not necessary. No one gains anything.

Both Sha's are called Shayanna. They do not have any difference in pronunciation.

Peace.
 

Firedragon

Well-Known Member
Messages
207
Reaction score
33
Points
28
So you have not really engaged with my point about the Patna Dhammapada parallel verse? My whole point is about Sanskrit. The Sinhala script can also be used to write Sanskrit. I don't really understand your aversion to discussing this.

This is not some kind of contest, in my view. I have no issue admitting the limits of my knowledge about Pali, I'm simply delighted to have someone else who is into this kind of thing, to exchange ideas and insights and to learn from those who know more. You seem knowledgeable, but so far, all I have got out of you is unsupported assertions about my ignorance, which is, frankly, frustrating, and is increasingly making me question whether you rally know Pali as well as you claim.

Sorry but you don't know both languages. Sanskrit and Pali. You have no knowledge on both. If you don have some knowledge, it's very very minimal or you are exploring. That's why you should ask question from people and learn.

So what is your question about the parallel verse in the Dhammapada? In Pali or Sanskrit? What is your point? Please do ask your question openly.
 

Cino

Big Love! (Atheist mystic)
Admin
Messages
3,785
Reaction score
2,031
Points
108
Location
Germany
I do not respond to some wikipedia link. And it's about sanskrit, not your absolutely ignorant statement about several pronunciations in payanu shayanna and gayanu shayanna. It's embarrassing to even read your comments.

Here, a Sanskrit primer. See p.26 in the PDF (p.10 as printed on the page) on the sibilants. https://vdocument.in/perry-a-sanskrit-primer.html?page=26

Now, what is your support that these sounds are "impossible"?
 
Last edited:

Firedragon

Well-Known Member
Messages
207
Reaction score
33
Points
28
Here, a Sanskrit primer. See p.26 on the sibilants. https://vdocument.in/perry-a-sanskrit-primer.html?page=26

Now, what is your support that these sounds are "impossible"?

What is your question? About two different pronunciations of the same sound Sha? Really? Is that the question or do you have some other question here?

And prior to that, do you withdraw your claim that Payanu and gayanu have two different pronunciations?

Thanks.
 

Firedragon

Well-Known Member
Messages
207
Reaction score
33
Points
28
Do you concede that in this post you don't know what you are talking about @Cino ? Be honest.

Screenshot 2022-10-27 at 14.55.00.png
 

Cino

Big Love! (Atheist mystic)
Admin
Messages
3,785
Reaction score
2,031
Points
108
Location
Germany
Sorry but you don't know both languages. Sanskrit and Pali. You have no knowledge on both. If you don have some knowledge, it's very very minimal or you are exploring. That's why you should ask question from people and learn.
I keep asking questions, but all your answers amounted to ridicule, nothing of substance.

I'll try once more, then.

So what is your question about the parallel verse in the Dhammapada? In Pali or Sanskrit? What is your point? Please do ask your question openly.

Pali:

Na hi verena verāni, sammantīdha kudācanaṃ;
Averena ca sammanti, esa dhammo sanantano.


Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit:

na hi vereṇa verāṇi śāmantīha kadācanaṁ |
avereṇa tu śāmaṁti esa dhaṁmo sanātano ||


As you can see, the BHS śāmantīha starts with a "sha". If you don´t see it, you either have to research the romanization, or take my word for it.

The Sanskrit cognate for "samma" is, however, spelled with a "sa", not a "sha". Again, research it yourself, or take my word for it if you wish.

My question:

How do you support your assertion that sammantīdha is derived from Samma and Antha, when this would not work in the cognate Sanskrit word śāmantīha?

Remember: I am asking for an answer, supported by evidence other than "because I say so and you don't know anyway". A serious answer which will enable me to learn more about Pali (and Sanskrit ideally). Give it a try, it is really more fun than posing as a reticent derisive know-it-all.
 

Cino

Big Love! (Atheist mystic)
Admin
Messages
3,785
Reaction score
2,031
Points
108
Location
Germany
Do you concede that in this post you don't know what you are talking about @Cino ? Be honest.

View attachment 3122

I was just asking you to correct my reading of your hand-written note. Feel free to type the unicode yourself, it would really speed up this conversation and get it back to our area of mutual interest, namely Pali.
 

Firedragon

Well-Known Member
Messages
207
Reaction score
33
Points
28
I was just asking you to correct my reading of your hand-written note. Feel free to type the unicode yourself, it would really speed up this conversation and get it back to our area of mutual interest, namely Pali.

It's Ka and Dha, not oo. Sakngaka. If you are using some kind of text on the internet, I can't help you with it. I thought you know how to "decipher" the script as you said. If you can't read it, just say you can't read it brother. I don't see any problem in doing that. I don't know hebrew and I can't read hebrew so I don't go telling people I can read or "decipher" hebrew.
 

Firedragon

Well-Known Member
Messages
207
Reaction score
33
Points
28
How do you support your assertion that sammantīdha is derived from Samma and Antha, when this would not work in the cognate Sanskrit word śāmantīha?

In both languages, it's a conjunction of two words. It's that obvious. How in the world can someone "support" it when you cannot read the script brother. Maybe like you tell me to, you should take my word for it. ;)

I explained this extensively. If you go back to that post you will get it better.

Now I have a question Cino. You said that Samma and Sama have two different meanings. Could you tell me what these meanings are?

Thanks in advance.
 

Cino

Big Love! (Atheist mystic)
Admin
Messages
3,785
Reaction score
2,031
Points
108
Location
Germany
Thank you!
Next question, what is the third cluster, before the final ka?
 

Cino

Big Love! (Atheist mystic)
Admin
Messages
3,785
Reaction score
2,031
Points
108
Location
Germany
Which word are you speaking about Cino?
The one which you wrote down and posted a photo of. I'm having difficulties decypering it, and am asking for help with the third cluster, the one before the final "ka".

Now I have a question Cino. You said that Samma and Sama have two different meanings. Could you tell me what these meanings are?

Pali dictionary definitions:

sammā = (adv) properly, rightly, thoroughly
sama = (adj) even, equal, level, similar. (m. noun) calmness, tranquility
√sam = (verb root) to be appeased

So much for my answer to your question.



Since we're here, I'd like to give the corresponding Sanskrit verb root:

Sanskrit dictionary definition:

√śam = (verb root) being tranquil

My reasoning is, that "sammantīdha" is derived from the verb root √sam rather than what you suggested, the adverb sammā. I feel my view is supported by the cognate sanskrit verb root √śam which contains a "sha" rather than a "sa", and which is also reflected in the Patna Dhammapada parallel verse's corresponding word, "śāmantīha", which to my understanding must be derived from √śam and not "samma", due to the presence of the "sha" (ś).

What do you think?
 

Firedragon

Well-Known Member
Messages
207
Reaction score
33
Points
28
The one which you wrote down and posted a photo of. I'm having difficulties decypering it, and am asking for help with the third cluster, the one before the final "ka".

It's as I said, a conjunction of two letters. Ka and Dha.

Pali dictionary definitions:

sammā = (adv) properly, rightly, thoroughly
sama = (adj) even, equal, level, similar. (m. noun) calmness, tranquility
√sam = (verb root) to be appeased

So much for my answer to your question.



Since we're here, I'd like to give the corresponding Sanskrit verb root:

Sanskrit dictionary definition:

√śam = (verb root) being tranquil

Okay. So what happens when you join Antha to both words from both languages?

My reasoning is, that "sammantīdha" is derived from the verb root √sam rather than what you suggested, the adverb sammā.

Brother. Do you see that you are using English transliteration which is a cut and paste. Because it's a cut and paste from somewhere it has that elongation on top of the letter a. I can't cut and paste because I am translating into English directly from Pali, and writing it in English to sound like Pali as much as I can. I can't be cutting and pasting from anywhere.

The problem here is exactly that.

Anyway in Pali (Not any kind of translation), the two letters of M will be written closer to each other than other letters. That means both have to be pronounced as MM. As in not Summary, but like pronouncing a word like Amman (it's some city somewhere). Or Summa in arabic. I don't know to relate this to you since you don't read the script. The English writers have made an attempt to represent them with various terms I guess, but it's not the way it's written, read or pronounced.

So I have to apologise that I will not do English copy paste from anywhere. But your question is a valid question. Your cut and paste is wrong. You have taken the wrong word there in my opinion. Though in English after S, there is an 'a', in the Pali script there is none. If you put a vowel there the meaning changes. You have cut and pasted the sanskrit doing the same mistake. Do you understand?

And what you should know is Samma is not Sammaa with the elongated pronunciation that you had cut and pasted above. All this while both words are practically the same, though when you add a vowel it is intensified which is called "Ala" in grammar.

Are you getting the gist of it? Yes. You can ask your question Cino. No problem.
 
Top