Oh, for the love of God ...


So it goes ...
Veteran Member
Reaction score
London UK
... and the Latin Mass!


The issue of the Latin Mass, the Old or the Tradentine Rite, has reared its head again in the US, and as ever becomes a row between conservatives and liberals, in which the Mass Itself becomes something like the child of a marriage breakdown, with a parent hauling on each arm, shouting at each other over its head.

If is it anything, it should be above politics. That it isn't says something is profoundly wrong with the parties involved, on both sides of the argument.

It was the Latin Mass when I was a child and, I have to say, I was not particularly engaged or enthralled. I have no real issue with the idea of the Mass in the Vernacular. What gets me about the English, my gut reaction to it, is that it doesn't do justice to its subject. It's a translation, but its a bit ... meh ... At some point the church should have engaged a poet or lyricist, someone with a music ear for language, to come up with a final 'liturgical' text that ticks the translation boxes without sounding flat and dull and, in some places, dreary.


I recently read an article by someone who converted from the RC to the Orthodox Church, and I quote from him:
"... it was attending my first Orthodox Divine Liturgy that made such a difference ... it rather feels like you are being let into something special."

This is what the Mass should do, in any language and in any circumstance. This is what any liturgy should do, in any Tradition, in any language.

For me, the Mass is not about ideology, its about mystagogy

Mystagogy: from the Greek, meaning: “to lead through the mysteries.” The Catechism describes mystagogy as a “liturgical catechesis that aims to initiate people into the mystery of Christ” (CCC1075). Mystagogy leads us from the external signs and rituals of the liturgy to the inner, spiritual meaning of the divine life they signify.

Bearing in mind most people stop learning about the church, and the liturgy, when they leave Sunday School, most people have a juvenile idea of what it's all about.

God preserve us from the African Doctor's homily on the Eucharist (272): "Be what you see; receive what you are."

The Mass should intrigue: "It is [or should be], something profoundly – profoundly – unlike common worship in the modern world." It is that unlikeness which sets it apart." By incorporating the modern world into the mass simply reverses the process, and in the end the mass becomes more of the same ...

The same Orthodox convert notes: "the Divine Liturgy is said in the local language ... (Greek or a Slavic languages among immigrant communities), but mostly the Liturgy is in English. But the translations, in my experience, are quite good, and not "flat," as the modern Catholic Novus Ordo mass is."

The Divine Liturgy is "The Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom", and dates from the early fifth century. "This is a thing of great antiquity. You don't mess with it. It doesn't try to conform itself to you, but calls you out of yourself, calls you to mould yourself around it -- and to therefore allow it to mould you."

"Why is this a strength? Because we live in a world in which everybody is trying to sell you something, everybody -- including far too many churches -- are trying to make it super-easy for you to sign the contract, so they can make the sale."


Here is a performance, in Aramaic, of Psalm 53, sung for Pope Francis when he visited Georgia. Not part of a Liturgy, but the sound of the Eastern Church:

The choir is made of up Syrian and Iraqi Christians who are war refugees.

"God accepts all sincere prayer, but liturgy (meaning: work) is the offering we give to the All-Holy. It must be beautiful. Through it, the Most High not only transforms the bread and the wine, but transforms us."
I saw this a while back on an other forum. I came close to crying then and I did now. Beautiful beyond imagination. Thank you @Thomas
The Tridentine Mass is the Catholic Church's attempt at Ultra-Conservative Reform...
That's the problem ... it's not the Mass, it's conservative fundamentalism.

Women are commanded to wear skirts instead of trousers, cover themselves with long clothing and wear veils over their heads.
Curious, as I've attended Tridentine Rite masses with no such requirement, let alone 'command'. Too much propagandising, my friend.
That's the problem ... it's not the Mass, it's conservative fundamentalism.

Curious, as I've attended Tridentine Rite masses with no such requirement, let alone 'command'. Too much propagandising, my friend.
Reply removed at user's own request
Last edited by a moderator: