Try the Trinity.

OupaPiet

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I never bothered to find out exactly how the Trinity "God" was, shall I say...constructed...
To the Christian it is not a problem to say God consists of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
To them it is one God.

Then I was confronted by Muslim, and realized, to my shock, that Christians have a hard time to explain the Trinity.

Well, I previously sumerized the Bible and read the Quran a few times, and I decided to see if there is an easy understandable way to explain the Trinity, and to also find out if the Trinity is false, or really a divine god.

Well, I did my learning and have to test my knowledge with religions that do not believe in the Trinity, to validate my understanding.
This is my main reason why I wanted to join this forum.
To test the idea of a Triune God.

Whats the use if I believe in something, and there might be facts I dont know about that will destroy these "Facts".

If anyone wants to ask questions or needs some clarification, I will be happy to have a serious but friendly debate.
 

Thomas

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I never bothered to find out exactly how the Trinity "God" was, shall I say...constructed...
I'd rather 'deduced'.

Then I was confronted by Muslim, and realized, to my shock, that Christians have a hard time to explain the Trinity.
Well if anyone's got an easy way of explaining God ...

If anyone wants to ask questions or needs some clarification, I will be happy to have a serious but friendly debate.
Well I'm a Trinitarian, and happy to debate the matter ...
 

muhammad_isa

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OK .. I'll start the ball rolling.
The trinity has its origin in the context of "In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit"..
..and then theologians make claims as to what each represents, quoting Bible verses. :)
 

Tone Bristow-Stagg

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I never bothered to find out exactly how the Trinity "God" was, shall I say...constructed...
To the Christian it is not a problem to say God consists of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
To them it is one God.

Then I was confronted by Muslim, and realized, to my shock, that Christians have a hard time to explain the Trinity.

Well, I previously sumerized the Bible and read the Quran a few times, and I decided to see if there is an easy understandable way to explain the Trinity, and to also find out if the Trinity is false, or really a divine god.

Well, I did my learning and have to test my knowledge with religions that do not believe in the Trinity, to validate my understanding.
This is my main reason why I wanted to join this forum.
To test the idea of a Triune God.

Whats the use if I believe in something, and there might be facts I dont know about that will destroy these "Facts".

If anyone wants to ask questions or needs some clarification, I will be happy to have a serious but friendly debate.
I would offer Baha'u'llah has explained this topic.in detail and shown how God, the Holy Spirit and the Messengers are indeed One.

The challenge for Christians becomes the flesh body of Jesus.

download (5).jpeg
This diagram is the explanation.

As noted by the diagram, God does not descend into creation and each of the Mirrors are "Christ" an "Annointed One" in the age God chooses to give a Message. Thus Christ is the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End, the Alpha and Omega.

A Fuller explanation available.

Regards Tony
 

OupaPiet

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The very first thought I had about the Trinity was,
Can the Trinity be explained / compared with something we know.

I saw the egg explanation. You know… the Shell, White, and Yolk.
To me it was totally stupid to explain God this way.
The shell is not something to be eaten, therefore it cannot be called an egg. The Yolk does not protect the White etc.
The Trinity has 3 distinctive "Units" but it is one God, yet each is God in its own right.

I then looked at all the other explanations that supposedly simplified the understanding of the Trinity.
Liquid, Ice and steam.
Root Plant Tree....etc.
The same, they can’t exist as one at the same time and separately be removed and still be an egg, water, plant.
Hundreds of such examples just showed that one cannot compare God to anything else we know of, because it is created as something, not as a representation of God!.

And if we try to find something that is "similar" to the Trinity, then we will have 2 gods…can’t work.

I asked Myself, "Is there anything we can compare God to?"
Well, there was something which I totally forgot about.
There is just one thing God created, that was a representation of Himself!

ADAM!

Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness!
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him;

Now my mind started to run away with questions.
Adam must have looked like God?
Yet it was only the image of God, therefore Adam was not a second God!

Does this mean that God has a human body?
Well, As I continued to think about this statement God made, a lot of things started to fit in like a puzzle where I got pieces in the Bible to create the bigger picture.
For instance, the very first verses in Genesis said something on the attributes of God.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

OK, so God created everything, yet His Spirit moved over the creation.
I then realized, this means that God's Spirit could exit his “Being” and enter creation without any consequences to God's existence itself.
Now I had a visionary picture of the “Being” of God, and Him looking on to His Spirit who went out of his “Being” and entered into His creation.

I understood that God had a “Being” and the Spirit.
I don’t have a problem to understand the Spirit, but my mind picture about the “Being” was looking like a human body, such as mine.
I continued to elaborate on my thoughts and remembered something else about God.

Then, I remembered 3 things about Him.

  • When Moses spoke to God in person on Mount Horeb, God was an intense light. So intense that Moses’ face was shining so bright being in that presence, that they had to cover his face with a cloth. Even Israel who were around the mountain saw the fire of God, and was so terrified about it, they hid themselves and asked Moses not to speak to them in person for fear of his voice and light.
  • The second thing I remembered was that Adam and Eve did not know they were naked. Once they sinned, they lost something in or on their bodies that they had prior to sin, and only then realised they were naked.
  • Adam and Eve were created to live eternally! God warned them that if they should disobey Him, they will die!
Once I realized that God and Adam looked the same, I knew that Adam was also a “Being” which was clothed in light!
Furthermore, Adam was immortally created.

Great, now I understood that the “Being” of God was a being, not in the image of MAN, but a Being covered in light! AND this Being consisted of 2 things so far as I understood…The Being itself who had a Spirit, and this Spirit could exit the being, and also create as did the Being!

Once I got to these facts, I then understood the Trinity.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made.

OK, So Jesus was the 3rd attribute of God. The Word!
I understand the Word, as being the “Mind” of God.

Therefore God, YHWH, had a Spirit, and a Mind, and yet He was one Being covered in light.
He created Adam in His image with a body of light, a living spirit, and a mind that functioned fully to the extend that Adam could reason and even give names to animals, and remember these names.

The full circle, Adam was a Trinity, as we are a Trinity made in YHWH’s image.
Just one problem in the whole story.

Adam lost his immortal body of light, and we all are born without such a body.
For the first time in my life, I understood everything about God, Man and sacrifice.

For as long as I remember, I was always told that Man is born with “Inherited sin”. I did not like this idea at all!
Why would God create me as a sinner to go to hell, I asked?

Now everything made sense. God did not create me as a sinner, but this body wherein my spirit lives is not the same as the one Adam had before he sinned. This current body is slowly dying since the day I was conceived. Billions of cells are dying every day and much is destroyed in the poisonous environment we live in now, unlike the environment Adam lived in. WE are nothing more than living carcasses, and this was what Satan achieved. Killing off the Human that was made in God’s image.

And when we eventually die, our “spirit and minds” will be collected in a physical place, called the kingdom of death. This place is split up in two areas with an abyss separating both. A Hellish abode, and the bosom of Abraham.

But, what is the problem that we can not remain in the presence of God as we are?
Simply because in God there is no sin, and no death. Through one man sin came into creation, and death is the reward for sin.

This means, our decaying bodies will simply burn up in the Holy presence of God due to the corruption and decay we consist of.
When we go back to the creation story, we find a very interesting event.

God killed animals and dressed Adam and eve in their skins. That is how Adam and Eve could still have spoken to God in their sinful state.
Something about blood preventing God’s holy and intense light from destroying Man.

This was how sacrifice and blood are needed to allow the descendants of Adam to be in the presence of God. God gave laws to Israel to sacrifice and to cover their sins with the blood of animals, when He lived amongst Israel for 40 years. Even at the temple, the High priest had to have blood sacrifice on him and on the temple to prevent God’s glory from destroying him.

There are many examples of people dying when they were in God’s presence without the proper preparation of sacrificial blood on them.

OK, now the whole Bible made sense to me.

God Made Man with an eternal immortal body covered in light.

Man had a living Spirit dwelling inside him, as does the Holy Spirit dwells in God’s eternal being covered in light.

Man also have a mind (word) as did God.

This Spirit and Word of God can leave at anytime with the permission of the Being YHWH, and can interact with creation, as the Spirit did when YHWH made the Earth.

The Word of God can also leave the Being’s existence, and interact with creation, as the Word left the Father, and entered into the body of a fetus, to become a MAN.
This way God was able to grow up as a man, and to die as we do!

What other god do we know of decided to come to His creation, to become His creation, to live and die as we do?
And why did he do it?

To become the sacrifice and to remove death as He did when he rose from the dead. He received a New Body of light when He ascended into heaven. The same body Adam had, and the same we will get.

Now the Trinity made total sense.

My God is a living being that contains space and time. He has a Mind which is the total knowledge and intellect that creates everything. My God has a Spirit that can not die, and can leave the Being without the being and the Word dying.

This God of mine is ONE GOD, not 3 as the lovers of Satan preaches.

This God of mine has a Mind, and a living Spirit.

Any God that is not a Trinity, is a mindless dead god.

He could not create anything, because he had no mind, he is dead because he has no living spirit, and he does not have a physical being of light that had the love to come to us as one of us, to die like us.

This is the ultimate God of LOVE.

Greetings
 

Thomas

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Well, all I had to do was to read the Bible and it was quite simple to understand
Indeed, but understanding is one thing, explaining is another ...

There are things I understand of God. God is Absolute. God is Infinite. God is eternal. I can understand them, but cannot fully comprehend them, because I'd have to share in those qualities to get close to their actuality ... I cannot contain them, as it were. I can talk about it, but what is it to be it ... that's another thing.

God is Love ... that's something else.

+++

In relation to talk about the Trinity, there are two aspects in traditional Christian theology:

The first is called, somewhat unhelpfully, the economic Trinity – 'economic' because it comes from the Greek term oikonomia, literally: 'household management' and means the roles within the family and the efficiency of the household. The economic Trinity is the Trinity in relation to creation, humanity and salvation. So we talk about 'the economic Trinity' as we talk about 'the economy of salvation' – but perhaps it's easier, in this case, to talk about 'salvation Trinity'.

Thus:
Salvation Trinity is talk about what God does in relation to the world;
Theological Trinity is talk about who God is in and to Himself.

Christian theology has always seen the mission of the Son – His words and deeds – (his oikonomia) as revealing his essential being (his theologia).

In all the talk of Trinity, the basics is often under-estimated and overlooked.

In the approach to the Trinity, the Godhead, there is a simple procession:
The Spirit reveals the Son, the Son reveals the Father.
 

wil

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a figment of your imagination
First Cause
/ˌfərs(t) ˈkôz/
nounPHILOSOPHY
a supposed ultimate cause of all events, which does not itself have a cause, identified with G!d.

sec·ond cause
/səˈkänd,ˈsekənd kôz/
nounLOGIC
a cause that is itself a cause

1st cause, 2nd cause, 3rd cause

G!d, Holy Spirit, The Christ
Father, Spirit, Jesus
Thought, Idea, Action
G!d, Adam, Eve
G!d, 1st Adam, 2nd Adam (Jesus)
Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium
Mind, Idea, expression
Thinker, Thought, Action

The material world is 3rd cause on, it is what we see and touch and smell. But if science tries to identify it it disappears, from solid, to crystals, to molecules, to atoms, electrons, quarks, wavicles, there is nothing there, and everything there

Everything man made is first a thought, our creatorselves creating our creations, as above so below.

The religious terms for the trinity are Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The metaphysical terms are mind, idea, and expression.

Father is the source, origin, essence, root, creator of all. Son is that which proceeds from, is begotten of the Father, like Him in nature, and essentially all that the Father is. Holy Spirit is God's word in movement: the working, moving, breathing, brooding of Spirit, made known to men through revelation, inspiration, and guidance. The Holy Spirit is the Comforter who will bring all things to their remembrance.

The doctrine of the trinity is often a stumbling block, because we find it difficult to understand how three persons can be one. Three persons cannot be one, and theology will always be a mystery until theologians become metaphysicians.

God is the name of the all-encompassing Mind. Christ is the name of the all-loving Mind. Holy Spirit is the all-active manifestation. These three are one fundamental Mind in its three creative aspects
 

muhammad_isa

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My God is a living being that contains space and time. He has a Mind which is the total knowledge and intellect that creates everything.
I understand that when you say "My God", you refer to your understanding of God, right? :)
I also understand that Almighty God is aware of each leaf that has fallen, and will fall .. without the use of technology.
He is also aware of what is in the depths of our minds .. so not just a spirit/soul like ourselves.

"In His own image" does not mean God has physical form.
,,it refers to our spiritual qualities .. love, mercy, wise, just etc. .. except Almighty God is the Holiest of the Holy .. His attributes are not imperfect, as are we.

Any God that is not a Trinity, is a mindless dead god.
Why choose 3? Why not 2 or 99?
 

muhammad_isa

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Father is the source, origin, essence, root, creator of all.
..and Jews, Christians and Muslims can agree on that. :)

Son is that which proceeds from, is begotten of the Father.
Yes, I would agree .. except the details of "begotten" .. how was Jesus begotten? 😁

Holy Spirit is God's word in movement: the working, moving, breathing, brooding of Spirit, made known to men through revelation, inspiration, and guidance. The Holy Spirit is the Comforter who will bring all things to their remembrance.
Right .. a person is said to have received the Holy Spirit when they are "born again" .. open their heart to God.

The doctrine of the trinity is often a stumbling block, because we find it difficult to understand how three persons can be one.
..because they are not really "persons" .. God is One .. we all agree .. it is more aboui how God manifests Himself in the world.
Jews and Muslims CANNOT accept that Jesus is God .. God is not a human soul/spirit.
..and neither does God have physical form :)
 

OupaPiet

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I understand that when you say "My God", you refer to your understanding of God, right? :)
I also understand that Almighty God is aware of each leaf that has fallen, and will fall .. without the use of technology.
He is also aware of what is in the depths of our minds .. so not just a spirit/soul like ourselves.

"In His own image" does not mean God has physical form.
,,it refers to our spiritual qualities .. love, mercy, wise, just etc. .. except Almighty God is the Holiest of the Holy .. His attributes are not imperfect, as are we.


Why choose 3? Why not 2 or 99?
You see, YHWH mentions the Spirit, Himself as the Father and the Word who came from the Father and entered into a human form as Jesus, to die and to rise from the dead.

That is the only 3 that YHWH revealed himself by.
For that reason, 3.
Not 2, as in Genesis 2, Elohim and the Spirit, but 3 as in Isiah

Isa 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Ya`aqov and Yashar’el, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
Isa 48:13 My hand also has laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand has spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.
Isa 48:14 All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them has declared these things? Yahuah has loved him: he will do his pleasure on Babel, and his arm shall be on the Kasdiym.
Isa 48:15 I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous.
Isa 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now Adonai Yahuah, and his Ruach, has sent me.
Isa 48:17 Thus says Yahuah, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Yashar’el; I am Yahuah Elohayka which teaches you to profit, which leads you by the way that you should go.
 

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Thought, Idea, Action
Mind, Idea, expression
Thinker, Thought, Action
All psychological analogies, and acceptable as such, but care should be taken not to invest too much in them.

The religious terms for the trinity are Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The metaphysical terms are mind, idea, and expression.
In Unity metaphysics, OK, there are other systems.
... and theology will always be a mystery until theologians become metaphysicians.
Erm ... in their defence, many theologians are metaphysicians, and their metaphysic goes deeper than the psychological analogy ...

... the Trinity will always be a mystery because the nature of the Godhead transcends forms.
 

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Jews and Muslims CANNOT accept that Jesus is God .. God is not a human soul/spirit.
..and neither does God have physical form :)
To be fair, that's not what Christians believe either, so it's a false argument.
 

OupaPiet

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Yes, I would agree .. except the details of "begotten" .. how was Jesus begotten? 😁
Also easy to understand.
The Word was never begotten before the birth of Jesus.
This means the Word (Mind of God) is God eternal.
To interact with His created MAN, God sent His Word to Earth as a HUMAN.
The Word was conceived without human interception for the Holy Ghost overpowered Mary's human body and created a cell with DNA from Mary's DNA, that became a living Baby.
At this creation, the Word of God was already in this baby.
The Word of God grew up as a man, just like us all. He worked, and slept just like us.
Eventually He was tortured and died like we will die.
He rose from the dead, which He did as the first MAN on earth to have formulated a recipy that death can not remove us from God again.

In conclusion.
Jesus is called the Son of God, because God's Mind became flesh.
What else can one call the Word but the Son?
And, I will expect a God that loves me to reveal himself to us, and He did it in an incredible manner, by becoming our brother in the flesh.
Now, thats a great God indeed.
One who loves us so much, He wont mind to come and get me out of death, into a life of eternity, in a new body that can not hurt or need.

In this regard, YHWH is not a God that created Man to test and trial him, to send him to hell, or to leave this created man in death.
Such a god is not God at all, but Satan who made the Human Man to die!
 

OupaPiet

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Jews and Muslims CANNOT accept that Jesus is God .. God is not a human soul/spirit.
..and neither does God have physical form :)
And to elaborate on Thomas' answer.
It is not up to Jews and Muslims to decide on what the Trinity is or should be.
I have not seen any Muslim or Jew that has an understanding of the Trinity.
For instance, Muslims are of mind that the Trinity is Allah, Mary and baby Jesus.
That is anyhow how Jesus SUPPOSEDLY answer Allah in the Quran when Allah asks, did you tell people to worship you and Mary with Me?
Another error is that Allah say in the Quran, Stop, do not say 3!.

Therefore the Quran has a totally incorrect view of the Trinity.
And as for the Jews,
Well, it is interesting that the first Christians believed in the Divinity of Jesus and they became Christians.
I also saw how many Jews are now becoming Christians because they realize Jesus is the Holy Messiah of Elohim.
Hirsh Prinz converted almost 100 000 Jews when he wrote his book, How can 3 be one. This was almost 200 years ago, and we still see how Jews embraces Jesus when they learn about the true Trinity explained by his writings.

Lets be true on our observations.
Muslims are leaving Islam in their 10s of thousands every day.
If the Islamic countries were to scrap the apostate executions, Islam will loose many millions believers.

I do not want to argue about who is growing and if it has any meaning on which religion is true or not.
All I want to show is that, to make a claim that Muslims and Jews can not accept the Trinity, is simply not true.

Once people get to know the Bible and Jesus, a totally different ball game enters the playfield.
 

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My God is a living being that contains space and time. He has a Mind which is the total knowledge and intellect that creates everything. My God has a Spirit that can not die, and can leave the Being without the being and the Word dying.
There are many points you have raised that have been explained In detail. I see the issue you currently face is that you are connecting God to the physical world as an intrinsic part of your understanding of God.

God is is not contained and has never been contained within creation. God is above all attributes.

Regards Tony
 

Tone Bristow-Stagg

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And to elaborate on Thomas' answer.
It is not up to Jews and Muslims to decide on what the Trinity is or should be.
I have not seen any Muslim or Jew that has an understanding of the Trinity.
I see this is a very proud assumption, which I see is blinding ones own self from the greatness of Christ. I do not expect you to consider that is so.

It is up to each individual to find and understand who Jesus was and embrace the Christ. The Names of God, are not a barrier to God, unless we make them a barrier.

God has sent Christ in many Names and will bring all those Names under the One fold, under the One Shepherd, God. That is the promise contained in the Bible and many other Scriptures.

So I present the diagram again, which you have passed over.

images (4).jpeg
God as the Sun remains above creation, unknowable in Essence, the source of Life and Light, the Most Great Spirit.

The Rays of the Sun are the Holy Spirit emanating from God, containing all the Names and Attributes of God, The Word, the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End, the Fist and Last.

The Mirrors are the Annointed Ones, the Messengers, the Prophets, who are the Christ's. We know the Names of some of those Mirrors. Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab, Baha'u'llah, Krishna, Buddha, Zoroaster, Moses, Abraham, Adam. (To name a few)

All mankind is immersed in that Light and becomes born again upon acceptance in turn polishing the Mirrors of our own hearts from the dross of this world, The human spirit is raised from the Material world to the Holy and everlasting Spirit.

Regards Tony
 

muhammad_isa

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Jesus is called the Son of God, because God's Mind became flesh..
That is what you believe.
I believe that Jesus is "the son of God", because he was sent by God as Messiah.
The OT includes several "sons of God" in a similar manner.
I do not subscribe to the author of "Gospel of John's" opinion, where he philosophises in his prologue.
It is not the words of Jesus.

In this regard, YHWH is not a God that created Man to test and trial him, to send him to hell, or to leave this created man in death..
..nothing to do with trinity .. another topic.
 
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