I am. Please answer the question
Try the Trinity.
- Thread starter OupaPiet
- Start date
Only the parts of the gospels you choose to acknowledge according to Islam?
If bishops and emperors in the 4th. and 5th. centuries hadn't made "so much of it", we probably wouldn't be havingI bet more Christians today know Jesus said "Love thy neighbour" than they do about the 'four Chalcedonian adverbs'I doubt many could tell you the date of Nicaea, or who Arius was ... it's you who makes so much of it ...
this conversation.
..and as you say, one cannot be considered a Christian/Catholic, if one does not agree with the trinity doctrine.
The Qur'an is the complete, final and eternal word of Allah. There's no need to read or know anything else. There's all your Jesus that you need? What does he teach?
Edit: let's talk about the Qur'an Jesus and see what wisdom we get?
Edit: let's talk about the Qur'an Jesus and see what wisdom we get?
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45 And We prescribed for them therein: The life for the life, and the eye for the eye, and the nose for the nose, and the ear for the ear, and the tooth for the tooth, and for wounds retaliation. But whoso forgoeth it (in the way of charity) it shall be expiation for him. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are wrong-doers.
46 And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil).
47 Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed; such are evil-livers.
48 And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.
- Qur'an The Table Spread -
That might not answer your question, but the Qur'an is not just about what Jesus taught.
One needs to look to the Injil [Gospel] to know that.
That's it? Where is the love or peace of Christ?
They contradict on basic issues.
Is the gospel the same Injil that Allah gave to Jesus? Where does the Bible say Jesus was given a book? Jesus IS the New Testament, imo
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The Qur'an is very confused about Jesus, imo
So he has the need to tear apart Christian beliefs in order to validate his book as not having contradictions? What? Agenda much?
Pretty much. Not just the trinity has to go, but also the death on the cross and therefore also the resurrection -- also all of Paul and (most of) John, and also any parts of the other three gospels that don't conform
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Well if Sunni and Shia ... what happened, happened.If bishops and emperors in the 4th. and 5th. centuries hadn't made "so much of it", we probably wouldn't be having
this conversation.
Anway, I'm sure we would, you'd just be trying to find other ways to refute the Trinity.
Regarding the Trinity and the Quran.
Here's an interesting article: TRINITY IN THE QUR'AN: A HISTORICAL ACCOUNT by Media Zainul Bahri
The following two paragraphs are a shortened version of the abstract (1) and the conclusion (2):
1.1 ... Theologically, what is meant by the Trinity in the Qur'an is a belief in three Gods: God (Allah), Jesus (Isa), and Mary, as the three independent Gods, while the (orthodox) Christian belief confirms that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit (not Mary) are one God, not three independent gods.
1.2 ... Historically, the explanations of Olaf Schumann, Parrinder, Kurt Aland, Anton Wessels, and Fazlur Rahman, indicate two important things. First, the Christians in Arabia and whom Muhammad met in Mecca and Medina were dominated by the Nestorians who emphasized the humanity of Jesus and the One Almighty God. That is why the Qur'an sharply criticizes the system of the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus and Mary. However, both Schumann and Parrinder believe the Qur'an's criticisms of Christianity are misdirected, in a sense not to the official Christian Trinity doctrine.
1.3 ... Second, since Mecca is a very international, there are probably many Christian people or communities with different streams. But, as Schumann stated, they were merchants, not theologians. Schumann, Parrinder and many Christian and Jewish scholars agreed that the Christian and Jewish communities in the time of the prophet subjected to criticism of the Qur'an are sects deviating from the legitimate doctrine.
1.4 ... Moreover, when the prophet lived, there had been no acceptable philosophical explanations of the great thinkers concerning the doctrine of both Jewish and Christian monotheism to those who were thoughtful. In other words, the prophet only heard and received any information about the theology of both Christian and Jewish from ordinary people or priests who were not master at esoteric knowledge.
2.1 ... This means Muhammad came to Jewish and Christian people who are deviated from the official doctrine as formulated in the Council of Nicea in 325 AD.
2.2 ... Accordingly for Schumann, the Qur’an accounts of Jesus or Mary do not correspond to the Old or New Testament which may not have been translated into Arabic, either in part or in whole. Furthermore, the details of the Qur’an versions are similar to those commonly found in Christian or Jewish apocrypha, i.e. uncanonized books and those from ordinary Christians. In other words, there were already popular theology books or at least a popular understanding of Christianity, which are not the work of Christian theologians due to many innaccuracies teachings. In fact, the books often contain unfinished theological problems, and emphasise more on exciting and magical things to hear than the true theological meanings.
A comment on this last: It is evident that the islamic commentaries on the crucifixion that they are informed by Gnostic and apocryphal texts which focussed more on the 'magical' and 'esoteric' than the orthodox belief ... that Jesus was not crucified, that an angel took his place, or another, who was magically made to look like him ...
Similarly, the childhood stories of Jesus are drawn from a number of apocryphal texts in which the boy Jesus performs miracles and murders in equal measure ... the murderous elements were left out ...
Here's an interesting article: TRINITY IN THE QUR'AN: A HISTORICAL ACCOUNT by Media Zainul Bahri
The following two paragraphs are a shortened version of the abstract (1) and the conclusion (2):
1.1 ... Theologically, what is meant by the Trinity in the Qur'an is a belief in three Gods: God (Allah), Jesus (Isa), and Mary, as the three independent Gods, while the (orthodox) Christian belief confirms that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit (not Mary) are one God, not three independent gods.
1.2 ... Historically, the explanations of Olaf Schumann, Parrinder, Kurt Aland, Anton Wessels, and Fazlur Rahman, indicate two important things. First, the Christians in Arabia and whom Muhammad met in Mecca and Medina were dominated by the Nestorians who emphasized the humanity of Jesus and the One Almighty God. That is why the Qur'an sharply criticizes the system of the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus and Mary. However, both Schumann and Parrinder believe the Qur'an's criticisms of Christianity are misdirected, in a sense not to the official Christian Trinity doctrine.
1.3 ... Second, since Mecca is a very international, there are probably many Christian people or communities with different streams. But, as Schumann stated, they were merchants, not theologians. Schumann, Parrinder and many Christian and Jewish scholars agreed that the Christian and Jewish communities in the time of the prophet subjected to criticism of the Qur'an are sects deviating from the legitimate doctrine.
1.4 ... Moreover, when the prophet lived, there had been no acceptable philosophical explanations of the great thinkers concerning the doctrine of both Jewish and Christian monotheism to those who were thoughtful. In other words, the prophet only heard and received any information about the theology of both Christian and Jewish from ordinary people or priests who were not master at esoteric knowledge.
2.1 ... This means Muhammad came to Jewish and Christian people who are deviated from the official doctrine as formulated in the Council of Nicea in 325 AD.
2.2 ... Accordingly for Schumann, the Qur’an accounts of Jesus or Mary do not correspond to the Old or New Testament which may not have been translated into Arabic, either in part or in whole. Furthermore, the details of the Qur’an versions are similar to those commonly found in Christian or Jewish apocrypha, i.e. uncanonized books and those from ordinary Christians. In other words, there were already popular theology books or at least a popular understanding of Christianity, which are not the work of Christian theologians due to many innaccuracies teachings. In fact, the books often contain unfinished theological problems, and emphasise more on exciting and magical things to hear than the true theological meanings.
A comment on this last: It is evident that the islamic commentaries on the crucifixion that they are informed by Gnostic and apocryphal texts which focussed more on the 'magical' and 'esoteric' than the orthodox belief ... that Jesus was not crucified, that an angel took his place, or another, who was magically made to look like him ...
Similarly, the childhood stories of Jesus are drawn from a number of apocryphal texts in which the boy Jesus performs miracles and murders in equal measure ... the murderous elements were left out ...
Quite probably, having been informed from a variety of contradictory sources in the region at the time of the Prophet.
To be fair, he was defending monotheism against what he saw to be polytheism, but sadly there was no-one there to explain the nature of the Trinitarian doctrine.
Notably, scholars argue that the Quran rejects the idea of 'one of three' (cf Quran 5 (Al-Ma'ida), 72-75) which assumes a polytheism, and is not representative of orthodox belief.
The text never rejects the orthodox position, one God in three Persons, nor mentions a Trinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, so an orthodox Christian could say "we agree with the Prophet (pbuh) that there is but One God, as none of what the noble Quran refutes speaks of us, but of erroneous beliefs spread in our name."
No .. they are not misdirected..
Prophets in Islam (Arabic: الأنبياء في الإسلام, romanized: al-ʾAnbiyāʾ fī al-ʾIslām) are individuals in Islam who are believed to spread God's message on Earth and to serve as models of ideal human behaviour.
Prophets_and_messengers_in_Islam
Not one of them can be called God .. only God is God.
There is a difference between love and respect for a prophet, and considering them to be God.
The Qur'an makes that clear .. the term "one of three" refers to a trinity.
The complex theology of the trinity that evolved is condemned.
..that only leaves "Our Father whom art in heaven" that is God.
O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three". Cease! (it is) better for you! Allah is only One God. Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that he should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.
- Qur'an Women -
..and as I have already pointed out, 'son' in this context means partner in God's Sovereignty.
Well they're not directed at orthodox Christian Trinitarianism, that seems clear to me.
The Qur'an makes it clear that "one of three" Gods is condemned, with which we agree. It says nothing about One God, three persons, which suggests it wasn't addressing the orthodox doctrine.
I would have thought, if the orthodox doctrine was being condemned, the Qur'an would not be so ambiguous as to condemn that which we do not say, that's the point, it seems to me.
The "one of three" of the Qur'an refutes tritheism, as we do.