Faithfulservant
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It's ok. A lot of people don't believe the bible!
Enoch
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The Anointed
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O, I believe God's word, I just don't believe that mob whose head claims to be the shepherd of God's people.
Appears some of them don't believe you either, life is rich!
The Anointed
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No one can believe the Roman church and her daughter denominations that were spawned from her false teachings and believe the truth also.
Clement the bishop of Alexandria, wrote: “It would be ridiculous to imagine that the redeemer, in order to exist, had the usual needs of man. He only took food and ate it in order that we should not teach about him in a Docetic fashion.” Even though the scriptures state that it was because Jesus was hungry, that Satan tried to tempt him into turning the stones into bread.
Their Jesus was not the Jesus as taught by the apostles, but that other Jesus, taught by the Anti-Christ, who unlike we mere HUMAN BEINGS, did not need to eat, drink, or go to the toilet, as was taught by one of the great teachers that the authorities of Emperor Constantine’s universal church, used as one of their authorities when trying to defend their false doctrines.
Saint Clement of Alexandria, who was a saint in the Martyrology of the Roman universal church, in support of the great lie, speaks of the time that some imaginary midwife, who was supposed to be at the birth of Jesus, (Non-biblical) told some woman by the name Salome, that the mother was still a virgin after the birth and that her hymen was still intact, and that this supposed Salome, stuck her finger into the mother’s vagina to check, and her hand immediately withered up, but the baby Jesus reached out and touched her hand and healed it. (All non biblical).
Down to the 17th century, Clement was venerated as a saint. His name was to be found in the Martyrologies, and his feast fell on December 4. But when the Roman Martyrology was revised by Clement VIII (Pope from 1592 to 1605), his name was dropped from the calendar on the advice of his confessor, Cardinal Baronius. Pope Benedict XIV in 1748 maintained his predecessor's decision on the grounds that Clement’s life was little-known; that he had never obtained public cultus in the Church; and that some of his doctrines were, if not erroneous, at least highly suspect.
"ERRONEOUS--HIGHLY SUSPECT," they certainly got that right, but by then the false teaching of the so-called virgin birth had become firmly established in the minds of the multitude.
If that was the bar we held all religion to we would not be much of an interfaith site.
I much prefer discussion on what you believe and how it benefits you and our world than rants about what you think about what you believe other people think.
The Anointed
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I’m with you there wil. Most of the truth I have gained, came from discussions and sometimes heated with those of other faiths, who tried to put my beliefs down, but like Paul says, there must be disputes between believers in order that those who are correct will stand out.
You will have noticed wil, the little needle that Faithfulservant gave me by saying; 'A lot of people don't believe the bible' I believe that you are intelligent enough to see the insinuation.
I should have agreed there and then and pointed out the fact that so many people do not only disbelieve the bible but they change the actual wording to suite their false beliefs, such as Isaiah 7; 14, which reads . . . . . . . . .
| יד לָכֵן יִתֵּן אֲדֹנָי הוּא, לָכֶם--אוֹת: הִנֵּה הָעַלְמָה, הָרָה וְיֹלֶדֶת בֵּן, וְקָרָאת שְׁמוֹ, עִמָּנוּ אֵל. | 14 Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. |
But which those who don't believe the bible have changed to . . . . Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a 'VIRGIN' shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
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The Anointed
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Your little insinuation has not gone unnoticed and I'm only responding here for the sake of someone else on this forum. you are correct though, a lot of people don't believe, and they change God's word to try to support their false belief, such as changing Isaiah 7' 14; which reads . . . . . . .
| יד לָכֵן יִתֵּן אֲדֹנָי הוּא, לָכֶם--אוֹת: הִנֵּה הָעַלְמָה, הָרָה וְיֹלֶדֶת בֵּן, וְקָרָאת שְׁמוֹ, עִמָּנוּ אֵל. | 14 Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. |
Faithfulservant
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Yeah sorry for the snark. I'm really trying.
The Anointed
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Forget it mate, we're all imperfect and all striving for perfection.
I ain't striving for perfection, I have lived a life where mediocre gets me by and I am happy with it.
This kind of anachronism throws shade on your scholarship.
Not bishop of Alexandria, he was head of the catechetical school. But please cite references. In this case, Stromata, Book VI, Chapter IX.
LOL, no Father is regarded as infallible. The only one who never apparently strayed into error is Gregory Nazianzus, which is quite a feat, as he wrote a compendium of the Catholic Faith.
Clement was deeply (perhaps too deeply) schooled in Jewish and Greek esoterism. Origen, on the other hand, was a hero, then a villain, and now a hero again. Meister Eckhart faced the threat of censure, but has since been exonerated. My fave, Johannes Scottus Eriugena, has been out-of-favour until only quite recently ...
Clement is nevertheless of great historical interest, and generally beloved by the gnostics – I'm surprised you think him such a baddie. He was just interpreting like the author(s) of Enoch had done.
He is venerated by the Eastern Churches, some calling him a saint.
LOL, I'm surprised you don't believe this, apart from the Biblical evidence – Salome is mentioned by Mark (cf15:40–41) as one of the women who travelled with Jesus and supported His ministry, she was present at the crucifixion and later went to the tomb to anoint the body.
Salome could well be the mother of the sons of Zebedee. A tradition sees Salome as the sister of Jesus' mother.
Feminist critiques argue that the mainstream tradition underplayed the significance of Jesus's female supporters.
More to the point, the Gospel of Thomas mentions Salome (and Mary Magdalene) as 'disciples' of Jesus.
The Secret Gospel of Mark quoted in the Mar Saba letter (ascribed to Clement) contains a further mention of Salome, not present in the canonical Mark at 10:46.
In the Greek Gospel of the Egyptians, Salome appears as a disciple of Jesus.
Celsus a severe critic of Christianity, is quoted in Origen's, Contra Celsum ("Against Celsus") saying: "I could also mention those who call themselves Simonians after Simon, and those naming themselves Helenians after Helen, his consort. There are Christian sects named after Marcellina, Harpocratian Christians who trace themselves to Salome...
The particular reference, of Salome present at the Nativity, comes from the Protevangelion of James, (Chapter XIV), which Clement, God bless 'im, regarded as canonical.
So why, with the Gospel of Thomas, and no less than three other dubious gospels to endorse her, I'm surprised – it's no more far-fetched than a lot of the other stuff you post.
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I've always liked Justin Martyr’s argument that a woman giving birth in itself is hardly a sign ...
The Anointed
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I suspect that wil is being a tad bit overly modest.
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But the child that the woman bears being filled with the spirit of our Lord God and saviour, IS.
Now all this happened in order to make what the Lord had said through the prophet [Isaiah] come true, “An almah [young unmarried woman] will become pregnant and have a son, and he will be called Immanuel” (which means, “God is with us”).
The Anointed
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The only two women by the name Mary who were at the cross , the burial and the empty tomb of Jesus, were IMO and according to the scriptures, his mother Mary the wife of Cleophas, his aunty Mary Magdalene the sister to Joseph AKA Cleophas and Alphaeus, who I believe was the mother of her two illegitimate sons Simeon and Judas, who were adopted by her brother Joseph and were the half-brothers of Jesus.
His other half-brother was Joseph the namesake and son of Joseph ben Jacob. James the younger of all Mary’s sons, was sired by Alphaeus AKA Joseph ben Heli and was the only full brother to Jesus.
Apart from the two women by the name Mary, who were named by Matthew at the cross of Jesus, was Salome, who IMO was the wife of Zebedee, one of the sisters of Jesus and mother to his two nephews James and John the beloved who he charged with the care of his mother when he was crucified.
Matthew 13' 55-56; Isn't he the carpenter's son? Isn't Mary his mother, and aren't James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas his brothers? Aren't all his sisters living here? This Salome did not even exist when Jesus was born.
Don’t you think that’s strange Thomas, a woman with a husband and four sons plus a number of daughters, being put into the care of her grandson John, who was later surnamed MARK, which mean ‘HAMMER’ or hammerer.
I believe that it was his sister Salome who asked her brother Jesus if He would allow her two sons, who Jesus had surnamed ‘MEN OF THUNDER’ to sit on the right and left of his throne when He became King. Because he was, I believe, being groomed to be king of Israel by the Zealots.
Even John the Baptist His mother’s first cousin, asked Jesus from prison just before he was beheaded, if he were really the promised Messiah, the redeemer of Israel, or if they had to wait for another. I don’t believe that John would have doubted that his cousin’s son was the Messiah, if he believed for one moment that she was still a virgin after Jesus was born.
BTW Thomas, can you think of a reason why Jesus would charge his nephew John with the care of his mother?
Salome was also THOUGHT to be the name of the daughter of Philip of Bethsaida a son of Herod the Great and his wife Cleopatra and a disciple of John the Baptist, who with Andrew, another disciple of the Baptist became disciples of Jesus.
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Faithfulservant
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Actually, I'm one that made the Snark comment. Not Wil.
The Anointed
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Yes I realised that later and thought to myself, 'what is it with this wil, Does he [William] or she [Willamina] have some sort of complex that drives the person to respond to comments that were not made to them. AH well, it takes all sorts.
Salome is, IMO, wife of Zebedee, mother of James and John, and sister of Mary the mother of Jesus.
I think you've confused your Johns? IMO Mary the mother of the John Mark of Scripture was a wealthy widow in Jerusalem. John Mark is not the John of the Gospels.
A cousin, not a nephew. And because Jesus knew John and trusted him?
Well Salome is not an uncommon name.
'Philip of Bethsaida' is a name given to a disciple, and is not the Philip, son of Herod the Great.
Philip the son of Herod the Great is 'Philip the Tetrach' or 'Herod Philip II' – the builder of Caesarea Philippi. He and his wife Salome had no children.
Some sources say Salome was his niece. Others a different Salome, his half-sister. This would be the only known occurrence of the children of Herod the Great intermarrying. Marriage to 1st cousins and uncles, however, was relatively common.
The Anointed
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And you're entitled to your opinions, but please supply references.
And you're entitled to think whatever you wish, but please supply references.
Thomas said........ A cousin, not a nephew. And because Jesus knew John and trusted him?
And that’s it you reckon.
Jesus then turned to her, who IMO was falsely accused of adultery because she had remarried while her first husband Joseph ben Jacob was still alive and asked, "Is there no one left to condemn you?" No one Lord she answered. "Well then," said Jesus, "I do not condemn you either. Go, but don’t sin again," and it was for this reason that the mother of Jesus chose to remain separate from her husband Cleophas and his children, Simeon, Judas, and James the younger: and this is the reason why, on the cross, Jesus entrusted his mother, "Mary the wife of Cleophas," into the care of his beloved disciple John.
Her husband Cleophas/Alpheaus/Joseph and his sons, James, Simeon and Jude, did not abandon Mary, but rather, it was she who abandoned them, in obedience to her firstborn.
Acts 1: 14; It was the custom of the disciples after the death of Jesus, to meet and worship with the mother and family of Jesus; [His sisters, his father Cleophas/Alpheaus/Joseph the son of Heli, his half brother Simeon, etc]. Then after Peter was miraculously released from prison, Peter ran straight to the house where he knew the faithful would be gathered in prayer for his safety, to the House of Mary the Mother of young John, who had been surnamed "MARK," which, according to Young's Analytical Concordance to the Bible, means, "Hammer, or the Hammerer," and John surnamed "Mark," is associated with young John, who Jesus had surnamed "Man of Thunder." [Thor]
Spot on.
It is disputed today, if there ever was a 'Herod Philip II,' many scholars today, are of the firm opinion that there was no Philip1, and Philip2, but only Philip the son of Herod who ruled from Bethsaida, but please supply evidence if you believe there was.
It was to Philip of Bethsaida that the Greeks came, when seeking an audience with Jesus. Herod’s descendants were not only the temporal rulers, but also the spiritual rulers of Palestine or parts thereof during the ministries of John the Baptist and Jesus.
According to the Encyclopedia Britt, ‘Philip of Bethsaida, the son of ‘Herod the Great’ was born in 20 BC of a young Jewess by the name of ‘Cleopatra’ (A Macedonian name) Philip [Philadelphus] the son of Cleopatra, married his niece Herodias the daughter of his half brother Aristobulus, one of two sons of Miriamne, who were murdered by Herod the Great.
After giving birth to Philips daughter, Herodias left Philip for his half brother Herod Antipas. the tetrarch of Galilee. The daughter of Philip and Herodias who is un-named was the one who danced for Herod and requested the head of John the Baptist who was continuously accusing Herod for sleeping with his brother’s wife.
In 34 AD, shortly after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, Philip’s reign came to an abrupt end. Philip of Bethsaida simply vanishes from the pages of history, and in 36 AD, Herod Agrippa I, the grandson of Herod the Great and nephew of Philip and Antipas, received the tetrarch of the Macedonian district of Batanaera and Trachonitis to the east of the sea of Galilee, formerly held by his uncle Philip.
When Herod Antipas and Herodias tried to discredit Agrippa I, who was in favour with the Emperor Caligula, they themselves were banished, Antipas’ tetrarch passing on to Agrippa 1 in AD 39. Then in 41 AD and after the assassination of Caligula, Agrippa’s support for Claudius was rewarded with the government of Judea, which had, since the banishment of Herod Archelaus, been ruled by Roman procurators for about 30 years. It was this Herod who enjoyed the support and adoration of the Jewish authorities, who did all in his power to crush the infant Jewish Apostolic Church.
It was he who executed James, the son Zebedee whose mother, is believed to have been named Salome, a sister of Jesus, and a close friend of Joanna the wife of Chuza, Herod’s minister of finances, who was one of the women who supported Jesus using their own resources. And Agrippa would have killed Peter also, had he have not escaped from prison. Agrippa’s sudden death in 44 AD is recorded in Acts 12: 21-23.
Bethsaida on the eastern side of the Jordan in the old Macedonian territory where it enters Lake Galilee, was the birth place of Peter and his brother Andrew, who were close friends of Philip, who with Andrew, were the two men to who John the Baptist pointed out Jesus, the son of Mary his cousin, as the one whom the ‘LIGHT of MAN’ had chosen, as the man through who he would reveal himself to the world; the man that he had promised Moses that he would in the future, raise up from among the Israelites, the one who would come in the name of the Lord ‘I Am’ and speak to the people, only that which he was commanded to say by ‘I Am’ [The Son of Man] and the Most High in the creation.
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