The Way of Salvation

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by Sacredstar, Feb 16, 2005.

  1. Blue

    Blue Member

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    "our will not aligning with Gods and how people fight it because its their nature.. That is so true.."
    ========================
    How can we speak of our "will" not aligning with Gods, or aligning with Gods? (God's?)

    How can we possibly prove beyond personal validations that our "will" can or cannot align with Gods? (God's) We cannot.

    How can anyone know as a fact beyond themselves that
    a) there are Gods, and
    b) that we could possibly know if our "will" can be aligned with them?
    That would surely necessitate 'knowing' (claiming to know) the very mind of God, and how can anyone be so presumptious and proud to do that?

    What if the God so conceived is a false God... or a non-existent God?
    How would you know beyond your own faith in such a concept?
    No one does and no one has.

    If therefore Faith is a purely personal concern how on Earth can anyone declare such matters as if they are universally true? How can they declare there is in fact a 'pathway' (note: not 'pathways') to 'Salvation' for others? That those others can personally seek it, find it, and follow it?
    Well, of course others can, but there is no guarantee or necessity that it should be the same path or even the same religion with its particular doctrines and dogmas.

    This Community area is about belief and spirituality... not specifically Christianity which seems to be the proselytising intent of a number of posters on this thread.

    How can the matters stated in this thread be viewed as specifically Christian in orientation?
    We should be discussing Pagan, Jewish, Hindu, Sikh, Jain, etc., etc., concepts of salvation, if it appears in those religions and spiritual responses as important, as there are perhaps many paths claimed that could be construed as 'ways' to 'salvation'; even taking drugs, as many of the Old Testament writers may have done.

    No one here has even satisfactorily indicated from what we are being saved by this 'salvation'.
    What are we being 'saved' from? Hell? Damnation? Our own selfishness, greed and lustful, cruel desires, perhaps?

    What kind of spiritual and religious view is it that conceives of those who are saved and those who are not?
    Surely, 'judgement' from some entity or other can be explained to someone else, who has no understanding of such a strange and vengeful concept?
    No one has done that here so far in my reading of the posts, which I accept are sincerely meant and honest in their personal expressions.

    Why would an all-powerful 'God' want to condemn the unbelievers to some idea of 'Hell and damnation'? What about the pagans, the atheists, the Jains, the Hindus, etc? Are they 'damned' because they have not 'served' this all-powerful God? Are they condemned by this all-powerful God to a place that is neither heaven nor Hell?

    I have read here quotations sourced from both the Apochryphal and Gnostic texts and the Bible. How can such texts be viewed as some kind of 'authority'? Are they any different from writings concerning other Gods in other faiths? Do they have some kind of precedence because they come from a 'christian' Bible? That seems a) presumptious, and b) proudful (or should I say, less than humble?)!

    Finally, what is this 'spiritual warfare'? What does that actually mean?
    Who or what is at War with who or what?

    As LUNAMOTH posted:

    "Do you believe then that Jesus' preferred method of teaching was by secret initiation? That his word could only really be understood and interpretted by a few chosen individuals and the rest were left out of God's plan for salvation? And that it just happened that the ones who "got it right" were suppressed efficiently while only those with corruption in mind were successful in establishing Christianity?

    Don't you think God would be a bit more, uh, efficient than that?"

    It seems to me that a number of people here wish to both have a personal God, and one that is 'out there' beyond themselves.
    If the latter had any evidence, that might be worth discussing, but surely the fact is that any 'God' concept is personal and precious to the individual as their spiritual response... and that is all that can be said.
    That does not necessitate proofs. It cannot brook denial, it is secure in its heartfelt (and maybe soulful) personal understandings. That is not only as it should be... it is a fact. Faith exists in the individual. If it had proofs beyond the individual, we would be dealing with objectivities amenable to investigation.

    Generalising to others about 'salvation' is therefore not only potentially dangerous, it has no validity beyond the individual.
    To many of a different faith other than Christianity, it may not even have any personal application or meaning relelvanjt to those individuals.

    There can be comfort in supposing that other Christians may feel as you do yourself, if you happen to be Christian, but beyond that there is no universal application or even, of necessity, any meaning beyond your own heart (and soul?).

    Where does this Thread title suppose the 'path' leads?
    What is it saving us from?
    Why is a beyond death 'salvation' of spirit considered by some to be important?
    What does it in that case achieve? (Oneness with the Almighty? What does that mean?)
    Most importantly, what does it visibily achieve for the living? The evidence seems to suggest, it consists of telling other people their spiritual responses are false, and there is only one true path to this 'salvation'.
    It consists of imposing a set of beliefs, dogmas and dosctrines upon those of other faiths and no-faith... and even seeking to dominate their honestly held spiritual responses and mould them to the 'one' view. It proselytises itself as a specific religious meme, which bears no logical necessity of truth.

    Haven't all monotheistic religions always done this? Even tortured and gone to war over this... in the physical realm?
    Can that honestly be justified historically, or in the hatreds stirred up in the modern world?

    Come on now; let's ask ourselves some questions.
    Is spiritual 'salvation' a delusion, or not?
    Is there only one 'path' as the Title states?

    :cool:
     
  2. Faithfulservant

    Faithfulservant New Member

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    same argument always Blue ... someday I might see a new one and be pleasantly surprised :)
     
  3. Blue

    Blue Member

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    So, as I understand it, FaithfulServant, you have no answers to the many questions.

    That's fine. :) I expected no other response than this, but it may make others think.

    I can only draw appropriate conclusions from that and wish you well in your blind faith. As with many people apparently, it may serve you well upto a point.

    Security in some doctrines and dogmas does not actually mean that sense of security, comfort and satisfaction will continue.

    I would rather put my trust in what can be ascertained objectively with the employment of reason and rationality, however uncomfortable that may be, and that is where we must leave it.
    (Unless you pronounce upon other matters as if they are universally true of others as well as yourself, because of what you simply 'feel' is the case.)
    :)
     
  4. lunamoth

    lunamoth Episcopalian

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    I do not wish to be in warfare with anyone, spiritually or otherwise :) . Thought we were in the Christianity thread there for a minute!

    I aopoligize SS if my comments offended you. I was a cat barking up the wrong tomato plant, haha!.

    peace,
     
  5. Sacredstar

    Sacredstar New Member

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    Dear Blue

    Yes this is very true my own experience ties in with the Dead Sea Scrolls inference that we are given two keys to truth one leads to hell and the other to heaven within. When you have been to Hell blue you certainly know when you have been saved and achieved salvation. I have a wonderful case study on a woman that was sexually abused at age 6 by her father her story is a wonderful demonstration of how the soul is saved and reborn in this lifetime.

    Dear All

    WOW there are so many important and excellent questions here on this thread I will briefly pick out the ones that ping out at me but perhaps you may consider for the ones that are really important to you that you could start specific threads.

    being love

    Kim x
     
  6. Sacredstar

    Sacredstar New Member

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    Dear Lunamoth

     
  7. Sacredstar

    Sacredstar New Member

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    Dear Blue

    The first step is to surrender your human will to your own divine will e.g. surrender human self to your spiritual self which is your soul. Once you have surrendered to your soul's divine plan one then is able to work hand in hand with GOD.

    Deaer Faithfulservant

    I used feel like you without even realising it, but last year I was told this 'you have laid your soul at our feet now pick it up and put it back' it seems that GOD is unable to work through us super effectively if our soul is laid at GOD's feet. When the soul is upright we can become ONE with GOD.

    So hand in hand, side by side in the front line.

    Blessings

    Sacredstar
     
  8. Sacredstar

    Sacredstar New Member

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    PS

    Dear Lunamoth

    "However I don't believe that one needs some kind of secret knowledge either from other teachings or personal Revelation in the form of direct Communicatin from God or visions or what have you."

    Gnosis is about realisation and awareness not revelation but revelation is the cherry on the cake for those that have achieved the realisation.

    So where does realisation come from? As Jesus said in Luke

    the kingdom of GOD is within you

    So Jesus was teaching people to access the GOD within through realisation and the evidence of their own experience. So how can we express the evidence of that experience? By seeing GOD in everyone and everything in creation, by learning from our experiences to improve our level of being and learning from our environment and what it is trying to show us about the self.

    Life is a co-creation and everything that happens provides the clues, when one embraces what the Gnostic Carl Jung tried to teach us about synchronicity life becomes plain sailing, we learn to swim like a dolphin joyously with the tide instead of against it.

    Life becomes very simple it is only man that makes it complicated.

    Gnostic Christians learnt from the 'evidence of their own experience' so we learn from life and everything that happens in our lives as a deeper meaning even experiencing a cold. So one could say in our simplicity we have a heigthened conscious awareness of all that IS in creation. Children are in this space but human experience and mankind take them away from their purest essence. Interesting that Jesus said that we must have the innocence of a child to enter the kingdom of heaven (love) he did not say that we had to have the wisdom of the sage.

    So after all the years of travelling, learning knowledge and through his experience of integration into wisdom he came to a wonderful conclusion.

    The Child

    Sow the joy of innocence
    the dance of the child
    limitless divine love
    coming from the purest of hearts
    creates the Kingdom of Love

    Life on planet earth is the playground where the soul can choose which apparatus to use, but yet everyone as a unique journey and this is honoured above all else.

    Love beyond measure

    Sacredstar
     
  9. Sacredstar

    Sacredstar New Member

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    In our view children are born with in built wisdom, old souls that are then closed down by society so what Gnosis is about, is reawakening what we already know on a soul level it is the rediscovering the 'light within' that Jesus mentions so often in the bible.

    This quote says it all:

    "Parents are just the guardians of the soul, a precious gem born to shine. It is the guardians responsibility to ensure that gem is not reshaped but ALLOWED to be its natural state. The problem with education is due to its existing nature of reality, it is based upon engrained judgement. This stops people engaging with the flow of the divine self (soul) and the universe"

    So what materialism, literalism, science and reductionist reasoning as done is take children away from their purest essence and all the wisdom within.

    E.g a child tells a teacher they can see colours, the teacher tells them they can't, the child begins to close down their third eye and separate oneself from the awareness and blessings of the soul. Many children are aware of imaginary friends and more and more children born into spiritually aware families can relay information about past lives, it is just so natural for them to express their souls.

    Aspergers and autistic children are also pure love, their souls have taken precedence over the earthly self and so they do not close down in the same way but yet they feel trapped and misunderstood by society.

    I met an Aspergers man that is being hounded by mental health but yet his only crime is knowing the journey of his soul, why he is here, what he must achieve and where he is from.

    So one could say it is perfectly natural to live in Gnosis and it is when we don't live in conscious awareness that problems can begin to arise. There is a wonderful new magazine out called 'the new world children' these children are in tune with their souls. I also recommend a book called the 'Indigo Children' by Jan Tobin and Dan Carroll and Children's Past Lives by Carol Bowman.

    Apologies for my expressing my passion I will shut up now.

    Sacredstar
     
  10. Faithfulservant

    Faithfulservant New Member

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    In this I strongly disagree.. If you look at how many times in the bible we are told to trust in God it answers this.. I also do not believe that its possible to become ONE with God.. He is in a higher place than we can ever be. We are not mini-Gods We are his creation.

    Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths.
     
  11. lunamoth

    lunamoth Episcopalian

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    Dear Sacredstar, thank you for taking time to reply so thoroughly to my questions. Really we are not far apart :) . The thing is that I often mistake your posts for saying that you hold the key to some Only Way, rather than an alternative Way. Also, I think you are using the term Gnosis differently than what it usually calls to my mind: a secret teaching only available from some other indoctrinated person or to some limited few (even if that limitation is self-imposed, say by being too busy earning one's bread to learn all the esoteric teachings). His yoke is easy and His burden light. Apparently you are using Gnosis mean a personal awakening to deeper spiritual understanding or insight. Happens all the time, I agree. :D

    To infinity and beyond! ;)

    lunamoth

    And yes, the Kingdom is within us and all around us. Peace.
     
  12. Sacredstar

    Sacredstar New Member

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    Dear Lunamoth

    Oh yes beauty is in the eye of beholder, and so it is that I am learning from all of you (my environment) to express myself better through (Gnosis) knowing through experience and interaction so thank you Lunamoth and all others on CR. To me the whole point is that each journey for each soul is very special and unique for everyone, so yes where there is a will there is a way, and many different paths that can take someone the same way home to the source of the heart of GOD.

    May I ask where did this understanding come from? "The term Gnosis differently than what it usually calls to my mind: a secret teaching only available from some other indoctrinated person or to some limited few"

    And even in your post I see a message for me, I have a friend who calls himself Infinity and Beyond who as the same perceptions that you had of where I was coming from and so I will share this with him.

    Yes a personal awakening of conscious awareness.

    As it said in the Temple of Delphi, "Know thyself and you will know the universe and GOD'.

    Gnosis my dictionary says knowledge, spiritual, recognition

    Gnosiology - Philosophy of knowledge

    Gnosticism - Taught the redemption of the spirit from matter by spiritual knowledge, and believed creation to be a process of emanation from the original essence or Godhead.

    In Greek Gnosis - Gnostikos - To know

    I guess the problem is if people feel separated or/are not aware of their spiritual self hence would not recognise, understand or listen to the wisdom and intuitive insights from the soul.

    For me Christian Gnosticism is more philosophical and hence more liberating but from another perspective liberation can be a state of mind not necessary a condition of being.

    Thank you for sharing lunamoth, I may need to enlist your help to insure that I do not continue to give a wrong impression. As I move towards the biggest challenge of my life this year the impression is going to be key to its success I feel.

    Big hugs

    Love beyond measure

    Sacredstar
     
  13. lunamoth

    lunamoth Episcopalian

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  14. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

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    I was checking out this thread again. I read what everyone said. So I have decided to let everyone work out there own salvation and leave it at that. To lighten things up, I want to share what I read about what Joe said:D
    Let Work Be Your Way of Salvation

    </FONT>

    When Joe's wife ran away he got so depressed that his doctor sent him
    to see a psychiatrist. Joe told the psychiatrist his troubles and
    said, "Life isn't worth living."
    "Don't be stupid, Joe," said the psychiatrist. "Let work be your way of salvation. I want you to totally submerge yourself in your work. Now, whatdo you do for a living?"

    [size=+1]"I clean out septic tanks and sewer pipes." Joe replied. [/size]
     
  15. didymus

    didymus New Member

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    I want to comment on Gnosis and what my understanding of it is. The early Gnostics (at least the ones I read about) beleived that gnosis was open to all. Gnosis had nothing to do with knowledge in the mental sense. It was related to an intimate, personal experience with God. This was considered to be esoteric in a sense because only those that had experienced it knew what it was. Same as the person today who had a transformation by God, they have a hard time explaining it to the person without that experience.

    For those that speak in only one language such as English, we only have one word for knowledge. This is what I dislike about English. In other languages you had different words for evrything. ie; in Spanish there are 2 forms of to be, 2 forms of knowing. In spanish the word for knowing as a fact is saber, ie; you know a fact. The word for knowing as in aquaintance is conocer. So you conocer a person. You know them.

    The gnosis that we speak of with the gnostics is a personal aquaintance or experience (conocer). It has nothing to do with knowing facts about God or head knowledge. This difference is not taught by those explaining Gnosis.
     
  16. Sacredstar

    Sacredstar New Member

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    Dear Bandit

    That just about sums up psychiatrist's and mental health which is in the dark ages, they certainly do have not the key to salvation in fact they take the most beautiful souls into the black hole of hell where they play with their minds, humiliate and drug them till they are immobile and filled with self hate. So all very depressing.....but the light is now you know......there are two keys to truth one takes us to the black hole and the other to completion. GOD gave use free will so that we could choose what key to use.

    Do you have a lighter and uplifting joke? Hugs!

    Dear didymus

    Yes I agree as we have said before on these forums many words have different interpretations, understanding and insight depending on who's consciousness they are in. Add perceptions and assumptions and you have misunderstanding. So hey discussion is GOOD.

    being love

    Sacredstar
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2005
  17. Sacredstar

    Sacredstar New Member

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    Now this in interesting.....

    Definition of Salvation

         The Greek word usually translated "save," sozo (Strong's #4982), the intensive diasozo, and the related nouns soter (savior), and soteria (salvation), have a surprisingly broad range of meaning.

         Sozo, from a root meaning "safe", means, according to Strong, "to save, i.e. deliver or protect (literally or figuratively)." In the King James Version it is variously translated "heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole."

    Jesus certainly did teach the way......of salvation through love and compassion of self and others.

    Love beyond measure

    Kimxxx
     
  18. Dor

    Dor Bible Thumper

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    Gnostic

    GNOS'TIC
    , n. nostic. [L. gnosticus; Gr. to know.]

    The Gnostics were a sect of philosophers that arose in the first ages of christianity, who pretended they were the only men who had a true knowledge of the christian religion. They formed for themselves a system of theology, agreeable to the philosophy of Pythagoras and Plato, to which they accommodated their interpretations of scripture.



    From Webster's dictionary 1828

     
  19. Sacredstar

    Sacredstar New Member

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    Dear Dor

    As I understand it the Christian Gnostics were the very first Christians and many of the Apostles were also Christian Gnostics.

    Do you have a comment to make on the literal translation of the word 'salvation' ?

    being love

    Kimxx
     
  20. Dor

    Dor Bible Thumper

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    Thats where differences arise of course cause I understood it the Gnostics were the first Heretics.

    Actually that pretty much coincides with most definitions Ive ever read or heard.
    The act of saving or protecting and delivering from destruction, danger or calamity. Dont believe we have a difference in the definition of the word Salvation, I believe the difference for most is what we need to be saved from, and who or what does the saving and how.
     

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