"Believing in science" - what does that mean?

polarised opinions, both offering their own 'proofs' and 'evidence' and 'argument' to support their claims.
It's surprising how often you can find this in many areas of academia, let alone the science disciplines. :)

India had a good experience with vaccines. Polio, Smallpox, Covid
I read reports that apparently India focused on using well-tested anti-viral medication to battle covid, rather than the Pfizer/Moderna vaccines, and did well for it.

I mention that, because when the BBC got wind of people wanting to use the same well-tested anti-viral medication in the UK, they were dismissed as just wanting "horse medicine". :D
 
I only ask because philosophy is a science, as is theology, as is metaphysics or ontology ... but none of those disciplines necessarily depend on the ability to repeat tests in a laboratory, kind of thing?
Seems the vast majority of dictionaries and definitions of science would disagree with that.

Therein lies the usual communication issues...we need to use the same definitions otherwise next thing you know there will be 3000 definitions of science!

In order for it to be science, "to me" it has to be repeatable prove able...work for everybody, every time under controlled conditions.
 
is this supposing that by 'science' is meant the only the physical (empirical) method?
There are always academic rivalries as to whether social sciences or even life sciences constitute "real" science as they are not perceived to be so-called "hard" sciences. There's kind of an academic hierarchy where physics sees itself as "above" the other sciences, but also theoretical sees itself as above applied - physicists see themselves as superior to chemists, biologists, and engineers. I'm not sure what if anything really backs up their argument beyond human vanity.

Philosophy, theology, mathematics, other things, are certainly "fields of inquiry"
Mathematics sometimes gets called "the queen of the sciences" but other times I think seen as more of an abstract field of inquiry like philosophy.
This is interesting, I'll have to look more into it if I can carve out some time.
 
I read reports that apparently India focused on using well-tested anti-viral medication to battle covid, rather than the Pfizer/Moderna vaccines, and did well for it.
Government bore the cost of vaccination. We were just asked to come. In many places, health workers came by themselves. When we have 1460 million people to care about, cost matters. Therefore, no Pfizer.
 
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In order for it to be science, "to me" it has to be repeatable prove able...work for everybody, every time under controlled conditions.
Well, that's the experimental method. Which would rule out other forms of studies, qualitative studies, survey or focus group data, evolutionary science in most cases, or archaeological finds or paleontology, those things are not experiments that can clearly be replicated - those are reliant upon using rigorous methods of data collection and continuing to collect data to form the larger picture. New data can confirm or challenge previous narratives. But they are not experimental.
 
🤣 I read them. Then noticed that the same guy – Duncan Agnew – was referenced in both! What?

Re-reading, the earth is generally speeding up as measured over decades, but recent climate change effects is slowing the process, so the long-and-short of it is we were thinking of deducting a second from the clock in 2026 to account for this acceleration, but Agnew reckons it'll take three years longer to get there now, because of the slowing of the speeding up ...
Yep. But NBC decided to be misleading in their title on purpose.
 
"There are three kinds of lies: Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics"
Generally attributed to Mark Twain, who attributed it to British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli ...

The trouble is, science relies a lot on statistics, and the interpretations thereof.
I believe that every student should be required to take a stats course. It's amazing how gullible people are when they are presented with stats. I have seen stats presented with less than 10 participants yet presented as reliable. And if the statistic seems to agree with someone's opinion, there is no way to persuade them that the stat is flawed.
 
One thing I often mention, which can't be repeated enough, is that good science can predict when applied. So if someone believes in a scientific conclusion, but all or most of the predictions that come from this conclusion end up failing, then it is poor science.
 
Well, that's the experimental method. Which would rule out other forms of studies, qualitative studies, survey or focus group data, evolutionary science in most cases, or archaeological finds or paleontology, those things are not experiments that can clearly be replicated - those are reliant upon using rigorous methods of data collection and continuing to collect data to form the larger picture. New data can confirm or challenge previous narratives. But they are not experimental.
Isn't it just data, just information? This looks like a rib bone. Until you verify and find repeated info, get validation?

This it is my understanding is what separates science from theology and what various religions have tried to utilize (scripture validated by science) or dispel it as blasphemy. This is what makes me embrace new thought metaphysics. This non believer in supernatural (believing it all to be natural) also believes there was amazing intent in what became determined to be scripture.

All science is refined by new information isn't it? Again, I sure aint no scientist. But seems to me all that stuff archeology, evolution was under the category of guesses and conjecture until someone else repeated, verified.
 
In order for it to be science, "to me" it has to be repeatable prove able...work for everybody, every time under controlled conditions.
If you check the wiki outline of science, then I think you'll see you're talking about the physical or natural sciences, a branch of scientific investigation, that conforms to its own axioms, but that does not encompass the totality of science as such.
 
Isn't it just data, just information? This looks like a rib bone. Until you verify and find repeated info, get validation?
Its not quite as simple as that.

This it is my understanding is what separates science from theology ...
Again, not that simple.

The physical or natural sciences do not really address the core questions raised by theology, nor do theologians look to the physical sciences for core question answers.

Most scientists and theologians agree the 'science v religion' debate is a non-starter.

'Populist' voices on both sides argue the case, but it's all easily dismissed.

... and what various religions have tried to utilize (scripture validated by science) or dispel it as blasphemy.
Bad science does that ... good science can tell us a lot ... historians make much use of Luke's Gospel becuase he's so reliable on a number of matters, none of which are to do with faith and morals, but just historical insights recorded at a certain place and time ... Good science tells us a lot about the age of the Biblical books, for example, and the types of narrative ...

This is what makes me embrace new thought metaphysics.
You're on dodgy ground here, though, as 'new thought' was much based on the ideology of mesmerism and spiritism – what William James called the "Mind Cure Movement" – and a lot of that was 'dubious science'.

All science is refined by new information isn't it?
Depends what sciences. Ancient Greek psychological observations were pretty much spot on. The language is different, but the premise is much the same.

evolution was under the category of guesses and conjecture until someone else repeated, verified.
No, evolution has not been 'repeated' nor 'verified' – it's never actually been observed to happen (one species evolving into another), rather, there is just such a vast weight of observational evidence that it's nigh-on impossible to deny.

But elements of the theory – the conclusions from observations – have been critiqued. The Enlightenment ideas of evolution formulated by entitled white men – the evident superiority of the white race, for example, or the superiority of men over women.

Lynn Margulis (born Lynn Petra Alexander) is well worth looking at. An evolutionary biologist, the primary proponent of the idea of symbiosis as an evolutionary driver. She co-developed the Gaia hypothesis with James Lovelock. Hers was an uphill struggle against entrenched ideas.
 
Beyond the fact that applied sciences is applying some but not all of scientific methods to get theology and philosophy under the banner of science (whereas much of religion wants to reject any science that contradicts scripture....I find it a tad disingenuous and very confusing m to want to be under science)

Evolution theory is rarely well proven and err...evolves when new information comes out. If religions were to do that (cross out parts proven wrong, rewrite or add footnotes everywhere) I may change my mind.

Same with why I like new thought...they throw the bath water out and attempt to save the baby...and I could care less about it's origens...Just as I care less that sticky notes, penicillin, vulcanized rubber and many other scientific advancements began by accident and were followed up by folks testing and proving.

Belief, faith should not be part of science (my view) knowledge should....probable knowledge...until then (like the particulars of evolution) it is conjecture.
 
Evolution theory is rarely well proven and err...evolves when new information comes out. If religions were to do that (cross out parts proven wrong, rewrite or add footnotes everywhere) I may change my mind.
That would mean that their gods would be wrong. It would also make their gods subservient to their subjects.

If gods did exist, and they created and understood life and the universe, it would be very odd telling these gods that they need to change their stories to agree with current human knowledge.

It would just be a mess. I will give my example of the planets again. If a religious text said that we had 8 planets in our solar system, we would've had to rewrite this ancient text over and over. Long ago we thought there were 7 planets in our solar system. The moon was included. So we would have to correct the text to say 7 planets. But then we spotted more moons and realized our moon was not a planet. Now we have to correct the text to say 6. Then in the 18th century we discovered Uranus. Now we are up to 7 planets again. In the 19th century we discovered Ceres, so now the religious text is finally "correct" and we have 8 planets. But then we discovered Pallas, Juno, Vesta, and Astraea. So we had 12 planets. The religious text was wrong again. Then we discovered Neptune. We now had 13 planets! These gods obviously couldn't count. Then we realized that Ceres and company were basically asteroids. Back to 8 again. Now the gods are redeemed by their subjects. But then in the 20th century we discovered Pluto. The gods were wrong again! Now it is a confirmed fact that we have 9 planets in our solar system... until the 21st century when Pluto is downgraded to a dwarf planet. Now we're back to 8. Or 11 if you count the dwarf planets.

Do you see the chaos that would be caused by constantly changing religious texts to agree with current scientific consensus?
 
Beyond the fact that applied sciences is applying some but not all of scientific methods to get theology and philosophy under the banner of science ...
Actually 'philosophy' is the first science, and 'metaphysics' is the first philosophy. The 'applied sciences' emerged from under the banner of philosophy.

(whereas much of religion wants to reject any science that contradicts scripture....I find it a tad disingenuous and very confusing m to want to be under science)
And yet the evidence tells another story ... based on that, the contributions made to 'science' by 'religion' is considerable – the Christian cleric John Buridan, the Christian Bishop Nicole Oresme and the Franciscan Friar Roger Bacon are spoken of as 'the fathers of empiricism', and they helped establish the scientific method as a mode of enquiry based on observation and experimentation upon which you set so much weight.

Gregor Mendel (monk) pioneered genetics; Georges Lemaître: (priest) proposed the Big Bang theory; Nicolaus Steno: (priest) often called 'the father of geology'; Robert Boyle: chemistry and physics; Antoine Lavoisier: founder of modern chemistry, discovered oxygen's role in combustion and respiration; Leonhard Euler: mathematics and physics, laid the foundation for much of modern mathematics; Johannes Kepler: astronomy; Blaise Pascal: mathematics (probability and calculus) and physics. Nicholas de Cusa: polymath; Michael Faraday: chemistry and physics ... they are just a few.

And that's just among Christians – the Jewish contribution is no less, and the contributions of Islam are hugely significant.

To say religion rejects science is just to repeat anti-religious propaganda.

Evolution theory is rarely well proven and err...evolves when new information comes out.
And yet it is an accepted theory. Like all sciences, its understanding evolves.

If religions were to do that (cross out parts proven wrong, rewrite or add footnotes everywhere) I may change my mind.
And yet to say religious thinking and religious understanding does not evolve is, again, just anti-religious propaganda. It's nonsense, Wil, really.

What religions don't do is dicker about with received texts, although the amount of critical evaluation of those texts increases all the time, so while we don't 'cross out', the commentaries are ample.

What you assume is the basic axioms change – they don't, and there's no sufficient reason why they should.

Same with why I like new thought...they throw the bath water out and attempt to save the baby...and I could care less about it's origens...
Well, now who's being disingenuous?

Belief, faith should not be part of science (my view) knowledge should....probable knowledge...until then (like the particulars of evolution) it is conjecture.
Where do you think the pursuit of knowledge starts?
 
Isn't it just data, just information? This looks like a rib bone. Until you verify and find repeated info, get validation?
Not sure what you mean by "just" data?
I mean they do keep gathering more.
I looked up some of the methods of paleontology
Even a reddit thread where someone asks
So of course they are always looking to add to the information to help contextualize things.

It's when you described
In order for it to be science, "to me" it has to be repeatable prove able...work for everybody, every time under controlled conditions.
Which - what you describe is more or less the experimental method, and when people are gathering field data like digging up bones, they don't have enough control over the environment to have truly controlled conditions, unlike laboratory experiments where they have tightly controlled laboratory conditions, and using the same methods time after time in a field dig won't result in always getting the same bones or same number of bones, on another dig, so it's not replicable in that sense, however, by trying to be uniform in their methods they can cut down on confounding variables (I cannot think of an example of confounding variables in paleontology offhand though) Even using the phrase confounding variables sounds so experimental method and they may or may not use that wording using other research techniques - not sure on that one.
 
All science is refined by new information isn't it?
Yes
But seems to me all that stuff archeology, evolution was under the category of guesses and conjecture until someone else repeated, verified.
Hypotheses are educated guesses, and then as more data is gathered it adds up to either support or not support a hypothesis.
 
What religions don't do is dicker about with received texts
Well, but the canon has evolved within several religions hasn't it? And commentaries abound and sometimes become deutero-canonical, and then there is evidence of redaction or revision of some texts?
 
Yes, but the origin of the texts is pretty ancient.

My own view is that the Hebrew Scriptures show an evolution from Canaanite-like polytheism, with local deities and a hierarchic structure of the heavens and the powers thereof, to a monotheism that developed quite late across the age of the books – the genius then of the scribes, editors and redactors is the degree to which they preserved ancient materials even when that – from the literal pov – might contradict the prevailing theological ideas.
 
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