Is that a 'yes', or a 'no'?
Identity, individuality
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Aupmanyav
Be your own guru.
My view is similar to what we know about Charvaks/Lokayat (what is prevalent among people). They did not seem to have believed in superstition.
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Nope. Unless you're saying that Brahman is just matter.
Ionised plasma is just ordinary matter in an ionised state, one of the four states, as distinct from solids, liquids and gases – all of which can be ionised. Plasma itself is "a quasineutral mixture of free electrons and positively charged ions, with roughly equal numbers of positive and negative charges." (Brave browser). Ionised plasma is the result of a prior cause ...
If you're referring to a 'quantum soup' kind of thing, then you're still talking about a "quark-gluon plasma" – a composite, formed in the first millionth of a second of the universe.
Even reducing it to a theoretical and philosophical concept of sea of subatomic particles, the fundamental stuff of the material cosmos, then by every account I've read Brahman transcends that. That fundamental stuff appears as effects within the field itself, so we're still in the realm of dependent causation.
I mean, saying "I am Brahman" means no more than saying "I am stuff", surely? Where's the wisdom in that?
If you're saying Brahman is just matter and that's it ... then OK, but that's not what the vast majority of Advaitins would say – again, as I receive it, consciousness / awareness or however one wishes to define it when applied to Brahman is that which is prior to matter, not arising from it.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru.
What is matter? In Quantum Mechanics, mass and form are imparted to energy. If you have seen my previous post, <98% of it is because of strong interaction and >2% by Higgs mechanism.
Yeah, everything is "stuff", as you said 'quark-gluon plasma'. Of course, we do not have all answers, the research is progressing. We do not know where from the 'quark-gluon plasma' arose. The possibility that it arose from 'absolute nothing' has not been denied by science. That is close to what RigVeda said 3,000 years ago, "Sages who searched with their heart's thought discovered the existent's kinship in the non-existent."
Rig Veda: Rig-Veda, Book 10: HYMN CXXIX. Creation. | Internet Sacred Text Archive
Hinduism: 1. THEN was not non-existent nor existent: there was no realm of air, no sky beyond it.
sacred-texts.com
This would not work for my framework. “Then” was neither non-existent nor existent: there was no realm of air and no sky beyond it.What is matter? In Quantum Mechanics, mass and form are imparted to energy. If you have seen my previous post, <98% of it is because of strong interaction and >2% by Higgs mechanism.
Yeah, everything is "stuff", as you said 'quark-gluon plasma'. Of course, we do not have all answers, the research is progressing. We do not know where from the 'quark-gluon plasma' arose. The possibility that it arose from 'absolute nothing' has not been denied by science. That is close to what RigVeda said 3,000 years ago, "Sages who searched with their heart's thought discovered the existent's kinship in the non-existent."
Rig Veda: Rig-Veda, Book 10: HYMN CXXIX. Creation. | Internet Sacred Text Archive
Hinduism: 1. THEN was not non-existent nor existent: there was no realm of air, no sky beyond it.sacred-texts.com
During the development of that creation story, I do not think they, perhaps the sages, would have known about there being a time when there was no air. So I am guessing it means something entirely different.
This would seem to follow atheism. I actually had to look that one up because God does not seem to have anything to do with the religion. However, I feel like I am reading ideas that developed throughout this religion without really understanding why they developed. Am I understanding that clearly, or am I missing the point of something?
I'm going to hold my thought on this for now and wait until I understand it in greater detail because there might still be more to this that I do not understand.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru.
That is the beauty of this poem. It was one of the later verses of RigVeda composed after Aryans had come to know of the indigenous philosophy and before RigVeda was canonized (therefore sometimes around 1,000 BCE). They had no scientific information, used their brains for analysis. I consider the writer of the poem, Prajpati Parameshthi, as one of the greatest philosophers of Hinduism, and perhaps the first atheist of the world, who boldly declared that "Gods are later than the creation of the universe". Accepting existence of any God creates the question as to how the God came to exist. Prajapati Parameshthi was the first philosopher to claim "Ex-nihilo" creation.
"at first concealed in darkness this All was indiscriminated chaos.
All that existed then was void and form less, by the great power of Warmth was born that Unit."
How true, even after 3,000 years. Do not we think that the ball of 'quark-gluon plasma' had great temperature and pressure at the time of Big Bang?
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Hmmm. Not necessarily. If our universe is a subset of a greater one, external gods are possible too. We've no way of knowing so we can't rule them out.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru.
In my belief, neither there is evidence of God interfering in the affairs of the world in history nor I have seen any in my 83 years. Therefore, there is no reason that I should accept the existence of any God or Goddess.
OK, so here's the thing.
I read The Nasadiya Sukta (Rigveda 10.129) and saw correspondences with the metaphysics of Christian Tradition. In fact, I saw no contradiction at all, when viewed from a Christian apophatic perspective.
But in looking at scholarly commentaries, there seems a constant theme, which I offer in extract from one such commentary:
The Nasadiya Sukta (Rigveda 10.129): A Philosophical Exploration of Creation and the Limits of Knowledge
"The Nasadiya Sukta (Rigveda 10.129) is one of the most profound and philosophically sophisticated hymns of early Vedic literature. Rather than presenting a mythological or theological account of creation, it explores the origin of existence through paradox, inquiry, and reflective doubt ... The Nasadiya Sukta invites not doctrinal certainty but contemplative openness, presenting creation as an unresolved mystery that transcends conceptual frameworks."
In respect of that, I do not intent here to propose an interpretation of the Sukta according to a conceptual framework.
I will say I regard any form of an indeterminate quantum state as a mode of manifestation and thus subsequent to the "Then" that opens the hymn, as I regard that 'Then' as prior to any mode of spatiotemporal condition – prior to the Big Bang, prior to the 'Singularity'.
Again, I do not regard the Sukta as theist or atheist, but rather a contemplation pointing to the limits of human understanding and the value of the open mind.
In light of that, if anyone wants to discuss the Sukta from a comparative point of view, I'd be more than happy to oblige from a Christian metaphysical perspective.
I read The Nasadiya Sukta (Rigveda 10.129) and saw correspondences with the metaphysics of Christian Tradition. In fact, I saw no contradiction at all, when viewed from a Christian apophatic perspective.
But in looking at scholarly commentaries, there seems a constant theme, which I offer in extract from one such commentary:
The Nasadiya Sukta (Rigveda 10.129): A Philosophical Exploration of Creation and the Limits of Knowledge
"The Nasadiya Sukta (Rigveda 10.129) is one of the most profound and philosophically sophisticated hymns of early Vedic literature. Rather than presenting a mythological or theological account of creation, it explores the origin of existence through paradox, inquiry, and reflective doubt ... The Nasadiya Sukta invites not doctrinal certainty but contemplative openness, presenting creation as an unresolved mystery that transcends conceptual frameworks."
In respect of that, I do not intent here to propose an interpretation of the Sukta according to a conceptual framework.
I will say I regard any form of an indeterminate quantum state as a mode of manifestation and thus subsequent to the "Then" that opens the hymn, as I regard that 'Then' as prior to any mode of spatiotemporal condition – prior to the Big Bang, prior to the 'Singularity'.
Again, I do not regard the Sukta as theist or atheist, but rather a contemplation pointing to the limits of human understanding and the value of the open mind.
In light of that, if anyone wants to discuss the Sukta from a comparative point of view, I'd be more than happy to oblige from a Christian metaphysical perspective.
That could be an interpretation, based on your favoured translation.
There are other translations:
Krishnananda:
"In the beginning desire descended on it that was the primal seed, born of the mind.
The sages who have searched their hearts with wisdom know that which is is kin to that which is not"
Wilson, HH:
"In the beginning there was desire, which was the first seed of mind;
sages having meditated in their hearts have discovered by their wisdom, the connexion of the existent with the non-existent."
Max Mueller:
"Love overcame it in the beginning, which was the seed springing from mind.
Poets having searched in their heart found by wisdom, the bond of what is in and what is not.
Wendy Doniger O'Flaherty:
"Desire came upon that one in the beginning; that was the first seed of mind.
Poets seeking in their heart with wisdom found the bond of existence in non-existence."
Raimundo Panikkar:
"In the beginning Love arose, which was primal germ cell of mind.
The Seers, searching in their hearts with wisdom, discovered the connection of Being in Nonbeing."
The original Sanskrit text of Rig Veda 10.129.4 in Devanagari script is:
कामस्तदग्रे समवर्तताधि मनसो रेतः प्रथमं यदासीत्। सतो बन्धुमसति निरविन्दन्हृदि प्रतीष्या कवयो मनीषा॥४॥
Transliteration (IAST):
kāmas tad agre samavartatādhi manaso retaḥ prathamaṃ yad āsīt | sato bandhum asati niravindan hṛdi pratīṣyā kavayo manīṣā
Word-for-Word Meaning:
- kāmaḥ: Desire
- tat: That
- agre: In the beginning / first
- samavartata: Arose / came into being
- adhi: Upon / over
- manasaḥ: Of the mind
- retaḥ: Seed / germ
- prathamaṃ: The first / primal
- yat: Which
- āsīt: Was
- sataḥ: Of the existent
- bandhum: The bond / connection
- asati: In the non-existent
- niravindan: Discovered / found out
- hṛdi: In the heart
- pratīṣyā: Searching / having searched
- kavayaḥ: The sages / seers
- manīṣā: With wisdom / thought
I have seen evidence of "God interfering"..
He captures the hearts of men through His messengers, and they in turn have a strong
influence on the world.
You may not like this influence, but that is something else.