Why don't Christians worship as Jews do?

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by truthseeker, Mar 13, 2005.

  1. truthseeker

    truthseeker New Member

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    Why is it that Christians don't worship as Jews do?

    I think that in Jesus' message he was trying to bring God's chosen back unto him. He said that he did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it. So why do Christians feel like we don't have to worship on the Sabbath day? And why do we use the Old Testament when we need to make reference to the 'words in red' but we feel like we don't really have to follow anything but the ten commandments, when Jesus himself was a Jew?
     
  2. SOGFPP

    SOGFPP New Member

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    Were did you get that information? From the Bible? Then you've gotta use all of it.

    Much of our worship and liturgy is very Jewish in origin... as is our faith.

    The Church is spiritual Israel or, the "new Israel". This is indicated in Paul’s writings: In Romans 9:6 he says that "not all who are of Israel are Israel." This indicates the existence of two Israels. One—"all who are of Israel"—indicates the ethnic people, not all of whom believe in Jesus. The other Israel, the context reveals, does not include those who have rejected the Messiah. This new Israel, founded by Messiah, exists in spiritual continuity with the Old Testament saints and so counts as a "spiritual Israel." It includes Gentiles who believe in the Messiah and so through baptism are spiritually circumcised (Col. 2:11–12) and are reckoned as spiritual Jews (Rom. 2:26–29).

    In his letter to the Ephesians Paul is even more explicit about the Gentiles’ spiritual inclusion when he states that "you Gentiles in the flesh . . . were [once] separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel . . . But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near . . . So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints" (2:11–13, 19).

    There were three groups of Jewish heretics in the early Church: A strict party, the Judaizers, claimed that all Christians must accept circumcision and keep the Mosaic Law in order to be saved. A milder party, sometimes called the Nazarenes, claimed that all Jewish Christians must be circumcised and keep the Mosaic Law, even though Gentile Christians need not. A Gnostic Jewish group, sometimes called the Elkasaites, insisted on keeping the Mosaic Law and added pagan cosmic speculation and the worship of angels.

    The Christian faith has dealt with this sort of thing from the begining.... I hope you understand the difference between Jews and Christians a bit better now.

    Scott
     
  3. Basstian

    Basstian In Search

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    Hey truthseeker welcome
    And very good thread!

    Your Question has more to do with the history of doctrinal changes in the church more than it does the scripture.
    You wont find any solid evidence of a change from sabbath to sunday in the Bible even though you will find references to the first day of the week and attempts are made to say that these verses support the change alot of scripture has to be ignored to acomplish that. (EWWWW THATS NOT GOING TO GO OVER WELL :) )
    Now as far as following Laws other than the 10 commandments these Statutes and Oridinances where different from the (BIG TEN) and where more away of governing the people and subject to change. Like the tabernacle statutes when they went from a tent to a temple.

    The fact is hundreds of thousands of Christians do observe the 7th day sabbath and many diferent Sabbath keeping churches exist within the christian faith. The Church Of God (Seventh Day) is one of them.

    The apostles sent a very clear message to the gentiles about the sabbath.

    Ac 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
    Ac 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
    Ac 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
    Ac 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
    Ac 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
    Ac 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
    Ac 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
    Ac 15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas

    They clearly wanted new converts of the faith to learn of the scriptures. This could be done in any city by going to a synagogue on the sabbath. Now it can be done on the first day of the week as well.

    I am not saying the first day of the week is a replacement of the sabbath I dont feel it is and clearly man changed it not God. But I also donnot feel the sabbath is a salvation issue. It is a delight to those who keep it and a way to draw closer to God and His word.
    Finding Truth in Gods word is a great thing.:D

    Here is how Jesus viewed changing commandments.
    Mt 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
    Mt 15:5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
    Mt 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

    Mt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

    This is an issue that causes great controversy within the church and alot of times is hard for people to realize that there are things we as christians observe today that are commandments of men. It wasnt any Christian alive today that made these changes but those in the highest places in the church during the darkages.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2005
  4. JJM

    JJM New Member

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    what do you consider the darkages? because Christians were worshiping on sunday as early as the second century.
     
  5. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    The Dark ages fall between 552 and 1200 AD (which corralates roughly to the Fall of the Roman Empire and the beginning of the Renaissance in Europe).

    Worship services were regular and open for the most part as far back as 150 AD. Community worship occured on both the seventh or the first day of the week, depending on which "church" the community belonged to, and the attitude of the society and government towards "their Christians" at that particular time and place.

    v/r

    Q
     
  6. Marsh

    Marsh Disagreeable By Nature

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    The question should be, "Why don't we worship as God wants us to?"

    Who says that Christians don't worship on the Sabbath Day? Jesus worshipped God every day by doing what God wanted him to do. Shouldn't we do the same? And... isn't the Sabbath a day of rest more than it is a day of worship?

    And we do follow the 10 Commandments-- and more, because all of the Law and the Prophets followed by the one who loves God and who loves their neighbour as they love themself.
     
  7. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    This is all very true. However, I think Truthseeker was asking why two faiths, coming from the same roots went different ways.

    Some theologins argue that Christianity emerged from its Jewish roots with the trial and death of Stephen, eight years after the trial of Jesus. Stephen and the Sanhedrin (Jewish council) could not agree upon the interpretation of the Old Testament. It wasn't what the scriptures said, but rather what they meant.

    Jewish experts believed the OT presented the law of God for His special people, and that it prescribed every move in true worship and every step to true piety. Stephen believed that the institutions, the law, the temple of Jewish life were temporary. The OT pointed to the coming Messiah who would fulfill all righteousness for all people. Stephen argued that the Messiah had arrived, and his name was Jesus.

    Stephen called the authorities "stiff necked", and accused them of being just like their fathers, always resisting the Holy Spirit. He pointed out that the Jews prosecuted every prophet ever sent before them. He accused them of receiving the law, but not obeying it.

    A riot broke out and part of the mob seized and stoned Stephen to death.

    Stephen's view is considered part of the base for the Christian view, which conflicts with the Jewish view of scripture.

    v/r

    Q
     
  8. Basstian

    Basstian In Search

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    Ok I really dont want to get to deep in this one. But here goes anyway.

    It is clear that sometime after the apostles there was a very negative feeling in the church against Jews. As Christianity gained political power Jewish tradition was looked on in a negative light. Laws forbidding Jewish practice building New synagogues or even repairing them was outlawed. Jew's where not allowed to testify against Christians and where forced to work the most meaning less public jobs.
    At this same time the Church made pains to change times and days of worship even forbidding worship on the sabbath (7th day). In an attempt to remove anything Jewish. This I belive is the dark ages of the church.
    I dont want to be so bold as to say anyone is wrong I am simply answering the question as to why Christians (at least the Biggest part) dont keep the sabbath.
    I have heard every reason you can imagine Jesus rose on the first day, Paul said to gather or take collection on the first day, John was in the spirit on the Lords day.
    None of these change the day God (not man) set aside as the day of rest.
    The hardest part of accepting that is you have to admit that somewhere in the churchs past men made a mistake in judging how much authority the Bible gives them in modifing The 10 commandments. Jesus made it very clear to the scribes they had done wrong in the same action.
    The sabbath hasnt changed cant and wont change. Christianity has changed but not God and not His law.

    Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

    Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

    Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
    Paul on the sabbath issue
    Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

    Heb 4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

    Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

    Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

    Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

    Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

    Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

    Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

    The Christian church has been under reform for a long period. Now I ask reform from what or who? And I ask have we gone far enough in this reform?

    Marsh I respect your reply but this issue is about kepping the sabbath not worship per-say we should all worship everyday. There is only one day that is the sabbath of creation.

    Israel went through many reforms Isaiah was told this.
    Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
    Isa 58:14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

    I find it really cool that almost every where God is asking His people to keep the sabbath He is also promising blessings. Truely not wanting to add a burden but desiring to bless now thats Love. The sabbath was made for man.

    I dont want to do any different the sabbath is a blessing its out there but I would never condem or judge anyone in respect to keeping it. :D
     
  9. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

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    well i dont know what to say about this because it is kind of confusing for me. so i am wondering maybe certain people have a special relationship and connection with God on a certain day that others are not receiving.?.

    or maybe there is a stronger conviciton there for some?
     
  10. truthseeker

    truthseeker New Member

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    Thank you so much for your replies.

    The fourth commandment states:


    As NIV and Webster's Dictionary implies, the Sabbath day is not only a day of rest, but it is a day of worship. The Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. I think Basstian was right on point. God set a day aside for this and told it to his chosen people, who are the Jews. We took that information and said that it isn't relevent to anything and now we worship on 'The Lord's Day'. I don't think that any of that stuff is important to initial salvation, but once we are saved we definately want to give God His respect and do what we are told.

    Hey, I'm not trying to start a revolution here. People have their different ways that they worship. I, myself, am not Seventh Day Adventist, nor do I feel the need to dedicate myself to a denomination; I feel that Christianity should be united, and there are things like picking apart the Word of God for our own advantage that will forever keep us divided. The Jews are the only community of antiquity still living today. Doesn't that say something?
     
  11. Basstian

    Basstian In Search

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    For the record those I was raised in an adventist home I left the church in my early teens (went wild)

    I when I became a parent decided that I could not do this on my own but not wanting to be decieved again took a long period of study and came to the conclusions I now hold to.

    I am a Christian the Day I keep is not an issue I am willing to divide the church over or seperate mself because of. Though by scripture I am bound to teach the law even in the littlest of things.

    Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
     
  12. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    (chuckle), guess I'm gonna be a gate keeper after all...:D
     
  13. Marsh

    Marsh Disagreeable By Nature

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    I see where the Webster's Dictionary says that the Sabbath day is a day of worship, but where does the fourth commandment say that (or even imply it)?
     
  14. truthseeker

    truthseeker New Member

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    NIV
    Exodus 20:8
    Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.

    Webster's New World Dictionary
    holy
    1. dedicated to religious use; belonging to or coming from God; consecrated; sacred 2. spiritually perfect or pure; untainted by evil or sin; sinless; saintly 3. regarded with or deserving deep respect, awe, reverence, or adoration
     
  15. Basstian

    Basstian In Search

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    I do not want to add words to the commandments as written in Exodus they are worded the way they are for a reason Keeping something Holy does have some requirements I think the 4th commandment is clear on its requirements even more so than others it is the longest commandment worded the way it is.


    Le 23:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
    Le 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
    Le 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

    Convoke-To cause to assemble in a meeting; convene

    This shows me at least a hint of an assembly on the sabbath very soon after the commandments.

    Psalms is the first place we see the word synagogue used but refers to them in a plural form.

    Ps 74:8 They said in their hearts, Let us destroy them together: they have burned up all the synagogues of God in the land.

    Jesus went to the synagogue on the sabbath by custom

    Lu 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

    At least 6 times in Acts we see Paul going to the synagogue on the sabbath though many more if you count the reference to preaching every sabbath in some locations.

    Ac 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

    Ac 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

    And in Isaiah it says In the New Heaven and New Earth from one sabbath to another all flesh will come to worship before God

    I feel it safe to say worship was intended on the sabbath but not required I think worship is a thing God would rather us do by choice not out of commandment But He also wanted us to call the sabbath a delight out of choice too.
    Again just the answers do with it what you will :)
     
  16. truthseeker

    truthseeker New Member

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    Thank you so much for your reply, Basstian.

    You give such clear Bible references. It's good to have you around. :D
     
  17. Basstian

    Basstian In Search

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    All the answers are there. It takes good questions to bring them out.

    Thanks to you also for asking a good one
     
  18. NewAgeNerd

    NewAgeNerd Goal: Orthodox Jew

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    Ahh what an interesting thread. I myself have often wondered this question, usually while observing the sabbath myself. First for some clarification. How the Jews have observed the sabbath has been kind of a mystery to non-Jews over the centuries, and hopefully I can clarify.

    The observance of the sabbath is the 4th of the ten commandments, it is thus an incredibly important commandment and one that a torah observing Jew would do everything to keep. The only good excuse for breaking the sabbath is to save someones life, everything else is just rationalization.

    In addition, the sabbath is called the day of rest, yet an observant Jew will paradoxically refuse to drive a vehicle on this day. The reason is, when G-d told us to keep the sabbath, he did not reveal in the Torah what entirely that entailed. It was left to Moses to explain the details of keeping the sabbath, and has since been a part of Jewish Oral Law.

    In a nutshell, when G-d created the universe he rested on the 7th day. What all does this mean? Afterall an infinite creator never needs to rest. Essentially, on the 6 normal days of the week, G-d created various physical things, and on the 7th day of creation, G-d created rest and defined rest as the act of leaving the world to be as it is. Likewise, on the 7th day of the week an observant Jew will cease all interactions with the world and let it run as it has been designed to run. This is still a pretty vague definition, so to get the details of the sabbath we have to move forward in time to the exodus.

    After the Jews left egypt, they needed a place to worship G-d. As a result the built the tabernacle. The construction of the tabernacle is believed, by Jews, to be a microcosm of creation. On every 7th day while the were building the tabernacle, the Jews had to rest which in essence means that on the sabbath they could make no progress towards the completion of the tabernacle. There are 39 things that the Jews had to do to make progress in the construction of the tabernacle, and these 39 things are the things that Jews obstain from doing on the sabbath. If anyone wants, I can give a list of all 39.

    To summarize, on 6 days of the week, the Jew impacts and affects the world around him. On the 7th day, in honor of the day where G-d himself chose to let creation run its course, a Jew lets the world be.

    One additional point, many people wonder how the Jew's knew that saturday was the sabbath. This also dates back to the exodus. On the 7th day of every week, while the Jews were wondering the desert, G-d provided a double serving of Manna on the 6th day and no manna at all on the 7th day. This was to prevent the Jews from breaking the sabbath. It has been this day which the sabbath is held on up until the present.

    The things that we do on the Sabbath are study and pray. In addition we worship, honor, and contemplate G-d's magnificence. It is an interesting sidenote that a person who studies 6 days of the week, is actually forbidden to study on the Sabbath as studying is their job and they must refrain from doing it.
     
  19. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Thank you Newage, That was excellent!


    v/r

    Q
     
  20. Basstian

    Basstian In Search

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    That is just awesome I feel incredibly blessed to have read this post.
    In my day to day struggle to balance the world on my shoulders keep all the bills paid keep the wife kids and everybody else in my world happy and provided for. I get tired I get weak and I get frustrated.

    God really wants me to take this time this one little day just like He did and just let the world be.

    It seems to me a Father commanded His children to do something for their own good.

    to that I say yes Father.

    Thank you NewAgeNerd very much
     

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