The Conquering Lion of Judah

Discussion in 'Rastafari' started by CanuckRasta, Mar 25, 2005.

  1. CanuckRasta

    CanuckRasta Rastaman

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    "And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof." - Revelation 5:5 (KJV)

    So, how will Christ be recognized when he returns?? What does the above passage mean, refer to etc. etc.

    Also, is there a definite sign that would say someone cannot be the LoJ??

    I would appreciate any feedback on this. However, if someone wants to debate the divinity of Haile Selassie, I would rather do that in my Rastafarianism thread.

    One Love
    CanuckRasta
     
  2. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Hi Canuck,

    If one looks not only at Rev 5:5, but at 5:1-9, I believe we are given a pretty clear view of who the Lion of Judah is. The term root of David describes where David came from (Judah), wherein the Lion of Judah is described as the Lamb as it had been slain. Furthermore, there seems to be only One person who could take the "book" or anything else from the hand of He who sits on the Throne.

    Jesus takes and opens the books, including the book of life Rev 20:12

    Now there is specific mention that no "man" above, on or below the earth was able to open the books, let alone look into them. But then Jesus was/is more than just a "man". He also paid a price for all of us, which make Him alone worthy to open the books of judgement and of life. Later on, He is also the one who declares to some "I knew you not", hence He judges those He knows and those He does not.

    Is this going in the direction you wanted it to?

    v/r

    Q;)
     
  3. CanuckRasta

    CanuckRasta Rastaman

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    Thanks for the answer. You have a great explanation there. I do have a couple questions:

    First, will Christ come again as Christ?? Will that be his name or will he come as a "Great King... my name is dreadful among the heathen" - Malachi 1:14

    Additionally, what Tribe of Israel did Jesus belong to? Joseph was a member of Judah, but was Jesus really the son of Joseph? Mary was the cousin of John the Baptist, who was a Levi, so would this mean Jesus was a Levi and is not the Lion of Judah?

    Also, I would appreciate it if you could tie Gen 49:9-10 to Rev 5:5 as well.

    Based on scriptural evidence, would it be correct to assume the following about the return of Christ:

    - His title shall be King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Conquering Lion of Judah
    - He shall be descended from David, and likewise from the House of Judah
    - His name shall be "dreadful among the heathen" (I believe this means his name will cause fear not that his name is literally "dreadful among the heathen"

    And I have decided to turn this into a debate on the divinity of Haile Selassie.

    One Love
    CanuckRasta
     
  4. Faithfulservant

    Faithfulservant New Member

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    Rev 19:16 And he that hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, and LORD OF LORDS.

    Rev 19:11-15 And I saw heaven opened, And behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called FAITHFUL AND TRUE, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a named written that no man knew but he himself. and he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood and his name was called THE WORD OF GOD. and the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. and out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations and he should rule them with a rod of iron and he treadeth the wine press of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

    He is also prophesized as when he returns he descends from the heavens and plants his feet on the the mount of olives. Its is also prophesized that every eye shall see him...

    He is already descended from the line of David..

    Yes he will come as King and yes He will come as the messiah.. the saviour of the world. The heathen are unbelievers so yes his name with be dreadful amongst them because they didnt believe the truth.

    Jesus is in the line of David from Joseph and Marys line both even though he was immaculately conceived of a virgin through the Holy Spirit. He is not a levitical priest he is high priest of the line of Melchizedek. He is of the tribe of Judah. You can read the descendent in the book of Luke for both lines.

    Gen 49:9-10 and Rev 5:5 are tied together..

    Im sorry I do not know who Haile Selassie is. I also do not think its prudent to debate this persons divinity on the Christian forum since Christians do not believe in the divinity of anyone other than God and the Godhead. Maybe on the comparative religion forum?
     
  5. BluejayWay

    BluejayWay More evidence? Thank you!

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  6. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    Indeed, I think that's why CanuckRasta suggested any reference to that topic be kept in his other thread. :)

    As for the return of Jesus - perhaps I'm being supra-scriptural, but I suspect that if you're looking for a return of Jesus, then it'll be a case of going "Aah..." after the fact, rather than being able to place any firm ideas and constraints of what would be involved now.

    Compare the Revelations with the Matthew comment about returning "like a thief in the night". The Gospel quote seems to imply that a return would be in a form surprising. As Revelations is very symbolic, I should be very cautious in applying too much literalism to the Revelations passages, and that too much specific expectation could be a very bad thing. :)

    After all, compare the Jewish position towards Jesus as compared to the Christian one - same set of prophecies used, but applied in different ways.
     
  7. BluejayWay

    BluejayWay More evidence? Thank you!

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    This is the statement that gave me pause--sorry, Canuckrasta & Brian, if I misinterpreted intent here:) --

    And that's wht's so fascinating about prophecy--
    Sorry to have wandered off-topic, but a person does learn a lot reading here, Brian, and thank you for providing this space--
     
  8. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    Ah, yes - you're right, my bad - I saw the original statement relating to his desire to not debate that - but since seems to have changed his mind. :)

    Okay - moved to Monotheism. :)
     
  9. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    As for the question of Haile Selassie - in what way can be seen to be a manifestation of God on earth as a fulfillment of Christian scripture?

    I have to say, I find it hard not to see Rastafarianism as a way of life, rather than a theology - and that looking to Haile Selassie as a religious figure had everything to do with black politics of the time, rather than anything to do with some form of major spiritual change on earth.

    Also, there's the weird attitude I perceive, of Rastafarians all apparently wanting to emigrate to their apparent spiritual homeland of Ethiopia - but the moment anyone tries to make that reality the rastas melt away, mumbling that it's not really their thing.

    Would you personally agree that Rastafarianism is essentially black politics with Christianity used to attempt to provide some degree of philosophical legitmacy? Or would you say that Rastafarians at large subscribe whole-heartedly to the theological issues and see a clear division of religion and politics?

    I'm speaking from an entirely personal manner, rather than as an administrative one by the way - I simply find the Rastafarian ideas of faith and lack of practical attempts to fulfill it somewhat perplexing.
     
  10. truthseeker

    truthseeker New Member

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    Perhaps Haile Sellasie I is the Christ for the RastaFarians. That's fine. But the New Testament is for Jesus though. The whole section is dedicated to Jesus and what he said and how he influenced people - why don't groups get their philosophies and make their own books? Sikhism and Islam is cool - they didn't play a game with that. They got their own book of revelations and they're doing their own thing and there it is. Thinking of Haile Sellasie I as the Messiah according to scripture is like someone trying to take a bread-baking manual to show me how to bake fish.
     
  11. CanuckRasta

    CanuckRasta Rastaman

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    I sorta figured the thread would move, no problem. Here is why I changed my mind with regards to debating the divinity of His Imperial Majesty. On Rastafarian forums, this is a fairly common debate. We get a fair number of Christians dropping in who eventually bring up this issue. I, myself have reasoned through the matter three or four times. The reasonings never end well, they create rifts, anger, and the unity of the forum. Not to mention nothing comes out of it; not wisdom, or guidance, nor anything else. So at first I was leery of debating Haile Selassie’s divinity. Then I realized that this would be the perfect place to reason on the topic and gain wisdom.

    Yes, it is true that Rastafari is a way of life (Rastas say livity). It is easier to define it this way because Rastas don’t always agree on the theological side of things (not all Rastafarians believe in the divinity of Ras Tafari, Haile Selassie). Additionally, the colour of his skin influenced the decision of early Rastafarians to see him as divine, but that does not change the prophecies that apply to him.

    Repatriation is the ultimate goal of every, single Rastaman or Rastawombman, regardless of race. Some have chosen to repatriate already, others wait for the fall of Babylon (see Culture’s song “Rolling Stone”). Ethiopia is different place than it was when Haile Selassie gave Rastafarians land at Shashamane. Given the Ethiopian government’s current stance on the Shashamane settlement, repatriation to Ethiopia is no easy task. A further complication is the recent death of Dr. Vernon Carrington “Prophet Gad”, whose Rastafarian order, the Twelve Tribes of Israel, constitutes a majority of the Jamaican Rastafarian Development Community at Shashamane.

    I would agree with the description that Rastafari is an African identity movement with Judeo-Christian influences. I would say that there is not a clear division of religion and politics within movement. There is a Jamaican political party that is Rastafarian, and it is no longer possible for Rastafarians to avoid politics – the Ambush in the Night incident on 3 Dec 1976 with Bob Marley is a prime example.


    Sorry for that digression but I, Brian had some points I wanted to address.

    Onto the issue. First, I would like to say that I will be using the King James version of the Bible, and I would appreciate it that if you quote a different version, you could note which version. Also, it would be beneficial in my opinion to familiar yourself with the general storyline of the Kebra Nagast.


    Just like to point out a few more things. Ome of you may wonder why we are sitting here, debating this topic, when Christ was reborn in 1892 and was sighted 2 Nov 1930. The reason why is Babylon. There is still oppression, slavery, materialism, discrimination etc. etc.


    In response to Truthseeker, Haile Selassie is the Christ. You will see soon how it talks about him in the Bible.


    One Love
    CanuckRasta
     
  12. truthseeker

    truthseeker New Member

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    By all means, CanuckRasta, please proceed. This is your thread - we have been waiting for you...
     
  13. CanuckRasta

    CanuckRasta Rastaman

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    Okay, let's start back at Rev 5:5. Couple this passage with Rev 19:16.

    You get Christ returning as the King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Conguering Lion of Judah. Well maybe it is just a coincidence but since the time of Menelik the First, Ethiopian Emperors have always held the same title as the returned Christ. Menelik lived the same time as King Solomon, way before Revelation was even written.

    One Love
    CanuckRasta
     
  14. truthseeker

    truthseeker New Member

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    OK, CanuckRasta,

    I see you. I have read Revelation chapter 5 and 19. I also took it upon myself to get some info on Menelik I. He is reputed to be the son of King Solomon and Makeda, Queen of Sheba. The story says that Menelik brought the Ark of the Covenent to Ethiopia, though he was met with a bit of riftraft as I understand it. He founded the Solomonic Dynasty of Ethiopia, which lasted for about 3 thousand years (if I'm correct) that ended with the fall of Haile Selassie I. You have an interesting point.

    But if Menelik I lived before Revelation was written, then the story is already told. Christ does mean "Anointed One." So Haile Selassie I is the Christ for the Ethiopian people, or all people? Is this on a spiritual level, or a political level?

    The book of Revelation is an interesting book to me. You see, I don't really see it as a Revelation of the apocalypse just yet but I do see it as a revelation of the progression and decline of nations. I have to do some more reading.

    The saying is true - it takes a village to raise a child. Every group brings about interesting points in interpreting the Bible. You have struck some curiosity in me to read a bit further with an incorporation of the nation of Ethiopia. If you have more to include to further your point, I appreciate your word.
     
  15. CanuckRasta

    CanuckRasta Rastaman

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    Also:

    "Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God. Selah. I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon to them that know me: behold Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia; this man was born there." - Psalm 87:3-4

    http://web.syr.edu/~affellem/nyah.html

    Selassie is Jah for all people, because everyone is an African. Some Rastas see him as Christ, some as God (Jah), some see him as both.

    One Love
    CanuckRasta
     
  16. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    Thanks for the information, CanuckRasta - much appreciated. :)
     
  17. didymus

    didymus New Member

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    I think it would be great if the second coming of Christ was a black man. Most people have an image of Christ burned into their brain from a Eurocentric point of view. I highly doubt the original Jesus had blue eyes and light golden hair that swayed in the breeze. I have had thoughts(maybe visions?) of the second coming of christ or maybe even the next great prophet being black. I think alot of people aren't ready for that. I am remaining open minded to this prospect.
     
  18. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Actually, based on the group of people living in the area that Jesus was born, and the fact that His mother was of the tribe of Judah, and His adoptive father was initially considered His own, and his occupation in the beginning was a carpenter's apprentice, I'd say olive complected, with brown or hazel eyes and brown/black hair. Thick in bone structure but rather tall (relatively speaking), and thick muscled (due to His occupation). Calloused of the hand, with small splits in the skin due to His working with resinous wood, and mortar and stone.

    A very strong looking Mediterranian man. ;)

    v/r

    Q
     
  19. CanuckRasta

    CanuckRasta Rastaman

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    The Prince of Peace

    Okay, let's move on to Isaiah 9:6.

    "For unto us a child is born, for unto us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called wonderful, counselor, Mighty King, Everlasting father, Prince of Peace."

    For this passage I am attaching an article from a friend, Ras Ashkar. In my opinon, he does an excellent job of analyzing the quote.

    One Love
    CanuckRasta
     

    Attached Files:

  20. didymus

    didymus New Member

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    I agree with your portrait of Jesus Q, but who's to say what he'll look like in the second coming. When he reappeared to those after his death they didn't recognize him right away. In one case it took several hours for them to realize who it was to whom they were speaking.
     

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