Gifts of the Spirit, Magic, ESP, and all that

[path_of_one]

So... now that I've got your attention by posting a title that has juxtaposed what is, for many Christians, entirely different things...

This is a post based on another in the "Magick" forum, in which Bandit and I got 'round to discussing experiences that are supernatural/spiritual. I've not openly discussed this with many Christians, especially since I have had negative responses from some that I have discussed it with, but I figured it might be enlightening to make it a post and see what you all think. And since I'm on the internet, I won't feel upset if people say that I (or others like me) are crazy or demon-possessed or something, since I don't know you all personally.

Here's the topic: various gifts in experiencing and/or altering the spiritual and/or supernatural. I'm talking about gifts that come naturally to you, not spells and rituals and whatnot. I'll post my response from the "Magick" forum so you all get an idea of what I mean:

"I don't know that you'd call them magical, but I do have certain gifts. I'm an empath, and also can do telepathy relatively easily. I sense spiritual entities at times, and sometimes "talk" to animals and trees. I've had moderate success with healing with energy in the few times I've tried it. It seems at times that I can impact events, kind of like getting a feel for underlying patterns in reality and then influencing the probabilities of events, but my general feel of it is that there are some bits of reality more tightly woven into the whole tapestry (if you will) and that some things are easier to impact than others. If I am attentive to it, I have a way of tapping into some sense of the greater reality and how my actions should occur within it. I guess it's a bit like precognition, but non-specific. To me, it operates a bit like Taoism, but across space-time so that you have a sense of how your current actions fit into the future reality.

I don't do spells or rituals, I just have this stuff happen to me. I've heard the term "flowing magic," and it seems that is a fitting description. I never much thought of it as magic, but more like just the way I interact with reality. Honestly, I haven't tried until this last year to get any understanding or control over this stuff, or to test my limits, so to speak. I feel I should practice to gain more control, especially over the empathy because it can be quite overwhelming, especially in large groups. [Edited for brevity.] So far, all I know is that practice seems to be increasing my capabilities, but I still have difficulty controlling the empathy and sensing spirits. The rest I generally have to actively "switch on," unless someone (person, tree, animal) is essentially broadcasting their thoughts, in which case I pick up on it."

Bandit responded that these are not magic, but gifts of the Spirit, to which I replied:

"The problem for me is that some of these gifts never seem to go away or "quiet down." The empathy can be really overwhelming without learning to control it and how to use it. And I dislike sensing spirit entities. I guess God gave me that capacity for a reason, but it really has frightened me in the past. Maybe it's just one of God's ways of keeping me leaning on Him, because when it happens (especially when it feels distinctly negative), I pray like crazy.

I think I never really thought much about what they were- are they magic? Are they ESP? Are they gifts of the Spirit? I always associated magic with spells and rituals, which I don't do. And I have always been told that the gifts of the Spirit were connected to being born again. I do love Jesus and take him as my teacher and savior, but I've had these gifts apparently since birth, before I even knew of Jesus. When I began talking at about two, I already was talking about dreams and visions, and communicating with nature the way I do now. I never had a moment where I "accepted" Christ and then- BAM- gifts of the Spirit.

Hmmm... maybe I'll make a post in the Christian forum to discuss these matters as I'm kind of curious what everyone thinks of this stuff. To me they always seemed like gifts, the same as art or music is a gift, given to me by God but innate. I've had some Christians tell me that ESP and the things I experience/do are evil and of Satan, and that I'm going to hell. That used to upset me when I was a kid, but it doesn't really now. I can't help the way I experience reality, and it's obvious that those people do not experience these things and thus cannot help but fail to understand that you can't always just "switch off" these gifts. In fact, it takes practicing with them to do so in my experience."

So... thoughts everyone? Are these type of gifts of the Spirit if we are born with them? What are we supposed to do with them? (I have ideas on this, and things I've done with them, but I'll leave that for later.) What is the difference between ESP and the gifts of the Spirit? Between magic and the gifts of the Spirit? Because there are types of magic that are based entirely on the mind of the magician and not on spells/rituals. Are the differences in intent, motivation, and our spiritual path, or are these gifts coming from different origins?

 

[path_of_one]

Sorry, Bandit replied once more on the other thread, and I thought it would be good to add it here:

To which Bandit replied,
"I think praying like crazy is a good answer. I often think when we feel that sense of being frightened, God is allowing or trying to show us something because He did not give us a spirit of fear, but gave us a spirit of power, so i dont have a problem with sensing the entities. I also think in time we learn what is what. I dont think we can just 'turn it off' either, but i think we can choose to excercise or simply understand we are being edified...maybe there is somethig we are supposed to do. <dunno>
There may be times when we are supposed to use a gift & we quinch it because we are not sure.

i think music & art is different than spirit (more like physical talent but could be inspired through spirit) because we can only see & hear that which is spirit, by doing so in spirit.

it is a tricky one & i dont think there are many who can really talk about these things (especially in public). I feel we effect each other in our daily lives too, just by the way we think, creating moods. I surely do not have all the answers, but i dont have a problem talking about these things.

I think of cold & hot. We can get goosebumps either way , but the warm is much more edifying & lasting. I think a little fear is a good thing..."

 

[Bandit]

here are some of the gifts, later he is talking about them working in the body of Christ (church). I see these as gifts from the spirit of God & not of my own.
So there may be a difference in how people use them or claim them.

I dont particularly like seeing the ones who slam there hands on peoples heads & do silly things & you see them fall down. (i can think of several on TV) i think some of those things are possible but IMO, it will be a gentle warm spirit & no one will be or getting hurt & there does not need to be a big ruckus.
1 Corinthians 12



1Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

2Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

3Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

 

[truthseeker]

"The problem for me is that some of these gifts never seem to go away or "quiet down." The empathy can be really overwhelming without learning to control it and how to use it. And I dislike sensing spirit entities. I guess God gave me that capacity for a reason, but it really has frightened me in the past. Maybe it's just one of God's ways of keeping me leaning on Him, because when it happens (especially when it feels distinctly negative), I pray like crazy.

I think I never really thought much about what they were- are they magic? Are they ESP? Are they gifts of the Spirit? I always associated magic with spells and rituals, which I don't do. And I have always been told that the gifts of the Spirit were connected to being born again. I do love Jesus and take him as my teacher and savior, but I've had these gifts apparently since birth, before I even knew of Jesus. When I began talking at about two, I already was talking about dreams and visions, and communicating with nature the way I do now. I never had a moment where I "accepted" Christ and then- BAM- gifts of the Spirit.

So... thoughts everyone? Are these type of gifts of the Spirit if we are born with them? What are we supposed to do with them? (I have ideas on this, and things I've done with them, but I'll leave that for later.) What is the difference between ESP and the gifts of the Spirit? Between magic and the gifts of the Spirit? Because there are types of magic that are based entirely on the mind of the magician and not on spells/rituals. Are the differences in intent, motivation, and our spiritual path, or are these gifts coming from different origins?

The New Testament calls these 'gifts of the Spirit'. It is discussed in 1Corinthians Chapter 12.

I don't think magic is instinct - I think you call on spirits to help you when it comes to magic. ESP has a scientific meaning. Gifts of the Spirit is something that everyone has, something that everyone is born with - how you use it is what makes the difference. We have them whether we believe in God or not. When we recognize that we have them, we usually start believing in God as something that isn't just described in a book. I have the same gift you are describing. 1 Corinthians 12:10 calls it spiritual discernment. I've always had it. I don't see spirits or hear spirits, I feel them (through the eyes of the spirit I see and hear them). I walk into a room and feel the negative and positive energies; sometimes people are there and sometimes not. Wisdom (Which is also described as a gift of the spirit) will allow you to read people by their body language. I don't have to read into that. When I look at someone's eyes I understand things that even body language doesn't tell me. When I am in touch with my gift I am usually given favor among man and animal.

It is my blessing and my burden. When I am not careful some people think I'm a bit snobby. I believe my gift keeps me in connection with God so I stay prayerful. When I abuse the purpose of my gift I get negative reaction and that negativity is often hard for me to get rid of. It weighs me down and makes me fearful and irritable. It is also displayed in a physical reaction - My skin breaks out, I put on weight, I'm sleepy all the time. Medicine calls it Stress.

 

[lunamoth]

I think I never really thought much about what they were- are they magic? Are they ESP? Are they gifts of the Spirit? I always associated magic with spells and rituals, which I don't do. And I have always been told that the gifts of the Spirit were connected to being born again. I do love Jesus and take him as my teacher and savior, but I've had these gifts apparently since birth, before I even knew of Jesus. When I began talking at about two, I already was talking about dreams and visions, and communicating with nature the way I do now. I never had a moment where I "accepted" Christ and then- BAM- gifts of the Spirit.

Dear path-of-one, I think you are experiencing gifts of the spirit. From a mainstream traditional POV if you have been baptised you have been born again in Christ (and I agree that infant baptism is an amazing manifestation of the Grace of God). And, perhaps not a mainstream understanding, Jesus has the power to baptize anyone "with the Holy Spirit and with fire," so maybe the outward sacrament of baptism with water in not necessary. And Jesus knew you in the womb .

As for "controlling" these gifts. First, if they trouble you and/or you want to gain understanding of them, I would recommend finding a minister or spiritual counselor you can trust rather than trying to go it alone. Perhaps this is advice that someone on a path-of-one does not gravitate to, but think of it this way: just because we want reliable transportation does not mean we have to invent the wheel and then the whole automobile all by ourselves. Others have gone before us, learned and tested these things, and we can learn from this collective experience, including the dangers and pitfalls.

As for actually developing these gifts, and I only say this because you asked I would say before doing anything it would be wise to prayerfully consider your motivations for wanting to do so. It's hard for any of us to step back and examine our motivations clearly, and usually motivations are mixed and complicated. I think this is why we are warned in Scripture about things like magic and divination. The temptations associated with these things are great.

Oh...what do I know? Who am I to interfere with or give opinions about gifts of the Spirit? But it is an interesting conversation.

peace,
lunamoth

 

[path_of_one]

Thanks for the replies so far. It is interesting to hear all your views.

I should clarify that I included magic as a descriptive term because its use for modern magicians sometimes includes these gifts, which doesn't often have to do with contacting/invoking spirits or ritual. Some people I have met who are not Christians have described their "flowing magic," in the same way I'd describe the things I experience, and they explained that they believe it is an innate gift they were given by God/the Divine/<insert word that means "God" here>. I believe that what they are describing is quite different from the OT references to magic and sorcery and witchcraft, which in nearly all ancient societies referred to attempting to gain personal power and using this power to harm others supernaturally, generally through the use of ritual.

Truthseeker- what you are describing is exactly how it works with me. I don't see or hear things, I sense or feel things, be they spirits or thoughts/emotions of people, animals, etc. I have the same experience of sensing someone's deeper self, their thoughts and intentions, their emotions, just by looking into their eyes. And yes, I tend to attract people and animals of all sorts like a magnet. I'm pretty introverted, so I really have to rely on God to use this in some constructive way.

Luna-
Although I am a "path of one," I find religious leaders to be very helpful, if they are not close-minded. I am a bit hesitant to try to find a minister with whom to discuss these things, because I have had incidents in the past in which I have spoken to other Christians and been told that these experiences are Satanic or something, which is a bit unnerving.

I always felt that they were gifts from God, and the closer I walk with God the more they manifest themselves. I think what confuses some Christians is that many believe that you must be "born-again" to receive them, and though I was baptized as an infant, my sister was not and she is the same way. I know people of other faiths and a few agnostics who have these gifts. I tend towards Truthseeker's idea that some people are just born this way and it is up to us to lean upon God for guidance in how to use these gifts.

In terms of development, it isn't so much that I want to get better at most of it, but rather I want to refine it and be able to shut it off sometimes. For example, I would like to be able to go to a party and not feel like I am on a roller coaster of other people's emotions and thoughts. That may well be a selfish motive, and I pray about it. Many of these gifts can be a burden, especially if they are relatively constant. I never see it as "me" doing things, but rather the gifts God has given me working through myself. What I'm finding though, is that the more time I spend in spiritual endeavors and trying to understand and learn how to sometimes "shut off" the gifts, the more they are developed and the more I experience them.

 

[lunamoth]

In terms of development, it isn't so much that I want to get better at most of it, but rather I want to refine it and be able to shut it off sometimes. For example, I would like to be able to go to a party and not feel like I am on a roller coaster of other people's emotions and thoughts. That may well be a selfish motive, and I pray about it. Many of these gifts can be a burden, especially if they are relatively constant. I never see it as "me" doing things, but rather the gifts God has given me working through myself.

Just a quick thought: I seem to remember I, Brian also talking about being an empath and how disconcerting it is. There must be other people out there with the same gift who have figured out ways to live well with it.

lunamoth

 

[truthseeker]

In terms of development, it isn't so much that I want to get better at most of it, but rather I want to refine it and be able to shut it off sometimes. For example, I would like to be able to go to a party and not feel like I am on a roller coaster of other people's emotions and thoughts. That may well be a selfish motive, and I pray about it. Many of these gifts can be a burden, especially if they are relatively constant. I never see it as "me" doing things, but rather the gifts God has given me working through myself. What I'm finding though, is that the more time I spend in spiritual endeavors and trying to understand and learn how to sometimes "shut off" the gifts, the more they are developed and the more I experience them.

LOL. The rollercoaster of other people's emotions and thoughts. My cousin and I talk about that all time. For me it's like being a sponge to the confusion that others are going through. The joy isn't really so bad. I'm still working on that myself. I don't think it's selfish at all to want to have just you to yourself for a bit. I don't really indulge in to many public outings because of that rollercoaster. When I do decide that I want to be a part of a public function, I usually have to be in a very understanding mood. I have experienced different kinds of feelings, so I recognize alot of those feelings in others. I pinpoint where that feeling is coming from, identify the feeling, and let it go. Usually public settings aren't the opportunity to resolve such feelings so I don't feel compelled to sympathize. That is my freeing process. But like I said, my blessing is my burden and I'm still working on it. I read this book called "Experiencing God". It talked about God putting me in a certain place at a certain time to do the work He has assigned for me. I don't think that the place and time to do God's work is at every social function I go to because people's emotional process is usually a private matter. So when people are compelled by the spirit to commune with me then I try the best way I know how at that time to use the gift. It usually yields positive results. But I will say that I do get out of control sometimes - like putting my two cents in where there is no request. Then I get in trouble.

 

[Quahom1]

The Seven Gifts of the Holy Spirit, verses "Talents" given us.

Wisdom
Understanding
Counsel
Strength
Knowledge
Piety
Fear "of God" (as in awe).

Substrata under these gifts.

Discernment
Tongues
Faith Healing
Prophesy?
Intuition


Talents.

Empathy
Impecible Logic
shrewdness
precognition

We must be very careful here all. Or this could get sticky real fast. I'd stick to the seven Gifts of the Holy Spirit, and base this thread on that (subsets are fine), but don't go off into magic (K) or other "non Christian" points, please.

v/r

Q

p.s. I too am "talented" with empathy. It ain't all that let me tell you.

 

[Postmaster]

Well, to me you don't sound crazy at all! But you can't let it get to your head, cause I have done so on some occasions. The first time I predicted something I was 11 years old and it was one week before we were going to go on a school trip. For some reason I knew I was going to find £1, I was told my mum and dad, they asked why I was going to and I told I was told them God has told me. Day by day went past and each day I was thinking about finding a £1 on the trip.

On the day of the school trip, they took us to a black smith and they put us to sit on stools in a barn, and as I was moving my feet, some of the hey on the floor moved away, I looked down and there was £1 on the floor. I had felt so blessed that I knew I was going to find it and was convinced God had told me and couldn't keep it, so I gave it to the teacher.

From that day on, I would be able to predict things before they happen regularly and until present. I did and do get phases when I don't get visions for a while. I would tell everyone here, that we are all creatures of God don't let it get to your head, let it show you the power of God and to serve him. I've done some big sins in my life, from lieing to stealing but God is forgiving and the stealing part was from the darker side of my growing up as a child. I'm sure I will sin more but I hope to serve God greater, now I have reached a time of my life where my reasoning is at it's peak.

My family has a massive history of foreseeing things and encounters with saint's in dreams and visions. My great grandma has this ability, skipped my grandma and my mum has it and now on to me. My grandfather has had experiences too. My last prediction was an earth quake in Iran, I had told my parents 3 days before it occurred, I only tell my parents because there are limited people that would accept it let alone understand.

 

[path_of_one]

We must be very careful here all. Or this could get sticky real fast. I'd stick to the seven Gifts of the Holy Spirit, and base this thread on that (subsets are fine), but don't go off into magic (K) or other "non Christian" points, please.

I only mentioned the term magic because some classify this stuff as magic, including some Christians who lumped these talents, as you put it, with magic and have told me they are bad. It seems like what you call these things depends on your religious tradition, but the experiences are the same. Part of my confusion was, as well, that I was used to thinking in terms of your classification system posted above- that the gifts of the Spirit were as you described them, which doesn't much tell you where these other talents come from or what the point of them is.

I try to have God guide me in my use of them, but I wouldn't mind being able to shut them off for a while so that I could go out in larger crowds and not feel so overwhelmed. Like you, Truthseeker, I generally limit my time with lots of people when possible because I find it very exhausting if I don't go into those situations well-rested and in a very understanding mood. In more appropriate settings I've had some wonderful things happen when God is at work, but a large crowd never seems like the right time for that sort of thing.

p.s. I too am "talented" with empathy. It ain't all that let me tell you.

You're preaching to the choir. I'm grateful for the talents I have, even if they feel like a burden at times, because I believe God made each of us the way we are for a reason. But some of these talents are not easy to have.

 

[Quahom1]

I only mentioned the term magic because some classify this stuff as magic, including some Christians who lumped these talents, as you put it, with magic and have told me they are bad. It seems like what you call these things depends on your religious tradition, but the experiences are the same. Part of my confusion was, as well, that I was used to thinking in terms of your classification system posted above- that the gifts of the Spirit were as you described them, which doesn't much tell you where these other talents come from or what the point of them is.

I try to have God guide me in my use of them, but I wouldn't mind being able to shut them off for a while so that I could go out in larger crowds and not feel so overwhelmed. Like you, Truthseeker, I generally limit my time with lots of people when possible because I find it very exhausting if I don't go into those situations well-rested and in a very understanding mood. In more appropriate settings I've had some wonderful things happen when God is at work, but a large crowd never seems like the right time for that sort of thing.


You're preaching to the choir. I'm grateful for the talents I have, even if they feel like a burden at times, because I believe God made each of us the way we are for a reason. But some of these talents are not easy to have.

That's fine. It is biblical, as long as God is the leading cause for your "gifts", and "talents".

There is that from God, that from Man, and that from "other", and we need to know the difference.

I only point out that this may be better off in the Spitrituality forum...if...

Not everyone in Christ's Kingdom as you put, are comfortable with certain issues.

If we can keep it to the seven Gifts of the Holy Spirit...then let's go!

v/r

Q

 

[didymus]

I have always felt that I had some sort of enhanced perception and insight into things. It's like I have a radar or something, the problem is that I don't know how to read the frequencies yet( that made me sound a little crazy huh?)

I think everybody has an antenna per se that is able to pick things up of a spiritual nature. Some of us are getting alot of static while others are picking up alot of stations. I've noticed mine the strongest around people. I can be around people and get so caught up in the underlying state of things that I can miss entire sentences. Not only am I aware of it I feel it as if it were happening to me. According to the Sandford's they call this burden bearing. Read Transformation of The Inner Man by John and Paula Sandford.

 

[truthseeker]

I don't think everyone bears every gift. The gifts are there to have a spiritual connection to God and mankind. Jesus bore every gift though, that's what makes him so phenomenal. I think we have the potential to bear every gift. Kind of like graduating from one gift to the next. Say, if I trust and learn to use my gift of discerning spirits well, then I can move on to faith healing through empathy.

 

[didymus]

Has anyone here ever heard of John and Paula Sandford? They have a Christian program called Elijah Hose.