Could this be a Mistake?

Conscience

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"Your attitude should be the same that Christ Jesus had. Though he was God, he did not demand and cling to his rights as God. He made himself nothing; he took the humble position of a slave and appeared in human form. And in human form he obediently humbled himself even further by dying a criminal's death on a cross." Philippians 2:5-8

Is the Bible wrong to say that Jesus is God?
 
Conscience said:
"Your attitude should be the same that Christ Jesus had. Though he was God, he did not demand and cling to his rights as God. He made himself nothing; he took the humble position of a slave and appeared in human form. And in human form he obediently humbled himself even further by dying a criminal's death on a cross." Philippians 2:5-8

Is the Bible wrong to say that Jesus is God?[/QUOT thebible does not say that jesus is God ,its all to do with a translation problem ,if we read the following verses we can see that God is seperate from Jesus and not God himself. also other scriptures say that Jesus is the image of God which is a bit different.some translaters, translate their bible without any preconcieved ideas clouding the thought of the pure word of God.
Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men. More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake. For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.(phillipians 2;5-11).

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation(collosians 1; 15).

God, who long ago spoke on many occasions and in many ways to our forefathers by means of the prophets, has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things. He is the reflection of [his] glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power; and after he had made a purification for our sins he sat down on the right hand of the Majesty in lofty places. So he has become better than the angels, to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs(hebrews 1; 1-4)

 
All I know is that I believe Jesus when he says in Matthew's Gospel: "Why are you worshiping me? For the Father is Greater than I."

Or would our beloved Jesus lie like the Devil to his own disciples? :D

Jesus says to the Jews in John's Gospel: You are a liar like your father, the Devil. So Jesus certainly wouldn't return the favor and lie like the Devil. :D
 
Marcion said:
All I know is that I believe Jesus when he says in Matthew's Gospel: "Why are you worshiping me? For the Father is Greater than I."

Or would our beloved Jesus lie like the Devil to his own disciples? :D

Jesus says to the Jews in John's Gospel: You are a liar like your father, the Devil. So Jesus certainly wouldn't return the favor and lie like the Devil. :D
true, jesus did say that the father was greater than he was ,so jesus words are true as you say .i find , when i read a translation that puts the correct rendering it courses no confusion . it just goes to show how translating the scriptures is a serious responsiblity because when wrong thoughts are put in the bible people are not sure if jesus is God or Gods son. phillipians 2; 5 -8 is an example of this .so you are right in saying that jesus is Gods son and not God himself, this is inline with the bible as a whole:)
 
In order to answer, Jesus' words in John 14:28, "the Father is greater than I," may be compared with His words in John 10:30, "I and the Father are one." This second statement clearly affirms His oneness in essence with the Father and that Jesus is also God. Note the following accusation of the Jews against Jesus "for blasphemy" "because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God" (verse 33). Also, the Jews wanted Jesus killed because He was "calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God" (John 5:18).

Does John 14:28 teach otherwise? Does Jesus' statement about the Father being greater than He deny also His identity and equality with the Father? Not at all. In the Trinity there is both oneness of being and distinctness of persons. The Son is eternally subordinate to the Father, but the subordination is not the essence of their being. To understand this, it is to be noted that the relationship is one that inheres within the one divine reality. In other words, the Son is subordinate to the Father not in essence but in relationship. Both statements are true: "I and the Father are one" and "the Father is greater than I."

Greatness does not mean that God the Father is more divine in the Trinity than the Son, but that in personal relationship they exist in mutual reciprocity of giving and receiving. This is not unlike the relationship of earthly fathers and sons in which the priority belongs to the father rather than the son.

Finally, we may rejoice in both statements of Jesus: "I and the Father are one" and "the Father is greater than I." Both are important to maintain in a truly biblical understanding of the Triune God.


One other thing, and this could should put and end to ALL doubts. Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I am." Question: Who is I am? I'll give you a clue - -

Ask Moses!
 
"Your attitude should be the same that Christ Jesus had. Though he was God, he did not demand and cling to his rights as God. He made himself nothing; he took the humble position of a slave and appeared in human form. And in human form he obediently humbled himself even further by dying a criminal's death on a cross." Philippians 2:5-8
That is probably the most meaningful passages of the Christian faith and core to the passive non aggressive meaning of one of the most peaceful teachings on earth.

 
Postmaster said:
That is probably the most meaningful passages of the Christian faith and core to the passive non aggressive meaning of one of the most peaceful teachings on earth.

Probably right close to "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do...", while dying on the tree. What do suppose would have happened if He said "Take 'em out Father, they aren't worth it..."?

v/r

Q
 
If he said that, he would have given us justice, and we would have been seperated from God forever!
 
Conscience said:
If he said that, he would have given us justice, and we would have been seperated from God forever!
I don't think we'd be around today to have this discussion either...;)

v/r

Q
 
Conscience said:
One other thing, and this could should put and end to ALL doubts. Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I am." Question: Who is I am? I'll give you a clue - -

Ask Moses!

AT JOHN 8:58 a number of translations, for instance The Jerusalem Bible, have Jesus saying: "Before Abraham ever was, I Am." Was Jesus there teaching, as Trinitarians assert, that he was known by the title "I Am"? And, as they claim, does this mean that he was Jehovah of the Hebrew Scriptures, since the King James Version at Exodus 3:14 states: "God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM"?​

At Exodus 3:14 (KJ) the phrase "I AM" is used as a title for God to indicate that he really existed and would do what he promised. The Pentateuch and Haftorahs, edited by Dr. J. H. Hertz, says of the phrase: "To the Israelites in bondage, the meaning would be, ‘Although He has not yet displayed His power towards you, He will do so; He is eternal and will certainly redeem you.’ Most moderns follow Rashi [a French Bible and Talmud commentator] in rendering [Exodus 3:14] ‘I will be what I will be.’"







The expression at John 8:58 is quite different from the one used at Exodus 3:14. Jesus did not use it as a name or a title but as a means of explaining his prehuman existence. Hence, note how some other Bible versions render John 8:58:


1869: "From before Abraham was, I have been." The New Testament, by G. R. Noyes.​

1935: "I existed before Abraham was born!" The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed.​

1965: "Before Abraham was born, I was already the one that I am." Das Neue Testament, by Jörg Zink.​

1981: "I was alive before Abraham was born!" The Simple English Bible.






1984: "Before Abraham came into existence, I have been." New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures.







Thus, the real thought of the Greek used here is that God’s created "firstborn," Jesus, had existed long before Abraham was born.—Colossians 1:15; Proverbs 8:22, 23, 30; Revelation 3:14.


Again, the context shows this to be the correct understanding. This time the Jews wanted to stone Jesus for claiming to "have seen Abraham" although, as they said, he was not yet 50 years old. (Verse 57) Jesus’ natural response was to tell the truth about his age. So he naturally told them that he "was alive before Abraham was born!"—The Simple English Bible


 
That last explaination would make sense if the Jews didnt say this:

"because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God" (verse 33).

Apparently the Jews knew what Jesus was getting at.
 
I love this passage for so many reasons. As PM stated, it shows the power of non-violence and humility, and encourages us all to follow Christ as peaceful beings.

As for the statements in the gospels that say "the Father is greater than I" and "I and my Father are one," I would put forth that these are not contradictory, nor do they necessarily mean that Jesus is God (despite what the apostles later thought and wrote down). I used to struggle with these, but in time and after much prayer, the conclusion I received was that Jesus was not the sum total of God, but he was a manifestation of God and was one with God. That is God as the great incomprehensible Father Creator was greater than Jesus, but God sent Jesus as a manifestation of his love for us and the aspect of God that is a personal deity. So Jesus was one with God, and in a sense was God (since he had completely given up himself to the Father, for the Father's will to be worked out). But God as the Father still existed separately and was bigger than the manifestation of one aspect in Jesus, which is why Jesus consistently puts himself lower than the Father in the gospels and also still prays to the Father. The trinity is the canonized way of describing this relationship, as well as incorporating the aspect of God that is the Holy Spirit.

By the way, just because the Jews were saying Jesus was making himself out to be God, doesn't mean their assumptions were correct. They also said Jesus was healing through channeling demonic forces, and I doubt any of us believe that was an accurate assessment.
 
"just because the Jews were saying Jesus was making himself out to be God, doesn't mean their assumptions were correct."

You're right! But, is sure means that they understood what Jesus was saying.
 
path_of_one said:
I love this passage for so many reasons. As PM stated, it shows the power of non-violence and humility, and encourages us all to follow Christ as peaceful beings.

As for the statements in the gospels that say "the Father is greater than I" and "I and my Father are one," I would put forth that these are not contradictory, nor do they necessarily mean that Jesus is God (despite what the apostles later thought and wrote down). I used to struggle with these, but in time and after much prayer, the conclusion I received was that Jesus was not the sum total of God, but he was a manifestation of God and was one with God. That is God as the great incomprehensible Father Creator was greater than Jesus, but God sent Jesus as a manifestation of his love for us and the aspect of God that is a personal deity. So Jesus was one with God, and in a sense was God (since he had completely given up himself to the Father, for the Father's will to be worked out). But God as the Father still existed separately and was bigger than the manifestation of one aspect in Jesus, which is why Jesus consistently puts himself lower than the Father in the gospels and also still prays to the Father. The trinity is the canonized way of describing this relationship, as well as incorporating the aspect of God that is the Holy Spirit.

By the way, just because the Jews were saying Jesus was making himself out to be God, doesn't mean their assumptions were correct. They also said Jesus was healing through channeling demonic forces, and I doubt any of us believe that was an accurate assessment.
nice arguments here:)

i kind of see it this way too path_of_one & i think you are on track with it. I think the father & holy ghost is the same spirit.
i dont think Jesus is God or Michael. I think he was a mere man just like us all. i do believe that NOW, Jesus is at the top & equal with God & that through Jesus is the only way to God & people may not realize this. If others believe it different that is up to them.
I believe the Father is who created it all, not Jesus. Jesus was there in the 'beginning', but in it in a very different perspective, the way I see it.


Like Q said, if it was not for Calvary, we would probably not all be having this conversation right now.
 
Where are the Christians that Beleive the Bible is the word of God? Do we believe the core essientials? What about the following, do we believe it about Jesus?

1. Jude 1:25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

2. Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

3. John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

4. John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" Note: Jesus didnt say, "I was."

5. Micah 5:2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times." Micah 5:2 talks about someone who will rule Israel and who's origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description?

6. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god. John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. Note: This is such an obvious verse, it would take a lot of effort not to see the truth of the matter.

7. John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. Note: The above verse is clear about Christ's pre-existence in glory before the world began.

8. Jesus accepted worship. In John 20:28 Thomas say "My Lord and My God." Jesus does nothing to correct or rebuke him. In Revelation John bowed down to worship and angel, but the angel rebuked him. Surely, Jesus would have stopped Thomas had he been making a mistake.

9. When talking to Satan, Jesus says to him "Thou shall only worship God." In the book of Hebrews God tells the angel to worship Jesus. Note: There is NO contradiction because Jesus IS God.

10. Peter says that God raised Jesus from the dead (Acts 3:26). Yet, in John 2:19 Jesus said that He will raise Himself from the dead. Note: There is NO contradiction because Jesus IS God.

All these are examples from the Bible. I believe if we allow the Holy Spirit to do what he said he will do, we will understand the scriptures. Why? Because it can only be discerned spiritually. I believe if we continue in trying to interprete the Bible, we'll only result in missing what God wants us to know. I believe we should just let the scriptures interprete itself.
 
sure Conscience, you know more about this than everyone else, so i guess i should just believe whatever you say. i see some contradictions about Jesus being God,

but of course if you say there are not any, then you must be right & i certainly dont want to debate with someone who knows everything, so once again, you must be right & the only one who can discern spiritually.

i appreciate your belief, however it is not the only belief there is on it.

Where are the Christians that Beleive the Bible is the word of God?
I am one of them!:D
 
Now where did I say I know more than anyone else here? Come on, why would you say that? Just because I have strong faith in Jesus being God, and I back it up with strong examples such as #9 above, you think I believe Im some how smarter than you. Hmmm? Well in that case, let the truth be known...I wasnt the one to say it!
 
I know people here hate it when we cut and paste but it was time efficient. Jesus put himself on a level below God on numerous occasions. I believe that God was above Jesus. God is and was God. Jesus was a reflection and His manifestation of the divine through a human.

I put on this link below which describes the use of one. You can see what the Greek translation was in this case.

John 14:28, for instance, ends with Jesus saying, "the Father is greater than I", and Paul in 1 Corinthians 11:3 says, "the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is G-d". If the reader has ever wondered why Jesus often refers to the Father as "my G-d" (e.g. John 20:17), but the Father never refers to Jesus as "my G-d", this is the reason. Jesus does say, "I and my Father are one", in John 10:30, but he also prayed that the disciples would be one, even as he and the Father were one, in John 17:11. The same Greek word, "ein", is used to mean "one" in both verses and indicates a unity of purpose, rather than a oneness of being. Interestingly enough, after Jesus says, "I and the Father are one" and the Pharisees pick up stones to stone him, he quotes Psalm 82:6, where judges who teach G-d's law are called gods. This always puzzled me when I was a Messianic Jew; I now understand that Jesus was not claiming divinity, but rather claiming to represent G-d in the same way that the judges represented Him.
 
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