Mesopotamian Origins

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Gnostradamus

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Greetings,

Does anyone share my view that Greco-Roman faiths, Hindu faiths, and Abrahamic faiths can all be traced back to Mesopotamia?
 
Kindest Regards, Gnostradamus, welcome to CR!

I think we have covered this subject a number of times:

http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2454

http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=210

http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1610

Just for starters.

A couple of other sources you might look to: "The Two Babylons" by A. Hyslop and "The Golden Bough" by Sir (?) Frazer, both of whom have drawn multiple connections across many religious sects, including Hinduism and multi-god paganism.

Anything specific you are looking for? :D
 
Hi Gnostradamus--interesting screen name you have there.

Yes, I think that you are definitely onto something.:)

Welcome to the boards--see you down the road.

InPeace,
InLove
 
juantoo3 said:
Kindest Regards, Gnostradamus, welcome to CR!

I think we have covered this subject a number of times:

http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2454

http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=210

http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1610

Just for starters.

A couple of other sources you might look to: "The Two Babylons" by A. Hyslop and "The Golden Bough" by Sir (?) Frazer, both of whom have drawn multiple connections across many religious sects, including Hinduism and multi-god paganism.

Anything specific you are looking for? :D
Click to expand...
I checked out those threads, I think they're more focused on the language rather than the theology.

I'm trying to establish parallells between the deities of the different mythologies.

Here are some that I researched, but they're admittedly not perfect;
  • Greek____________Vedic________________Mesopotamian
  • Chaos & Nyx _____ Kasyapa & Aditi _______Apsu & Tiamat
  • Uranus & Gaea ____Varuna & Gauri _______ Anshar & Kishar
  • Cronus & Rhea ____Dyaus Pita & Prthivi ____An & Ki_______
  • Zeus ____________Indra ________________Enlil__________
The Vedic Dyaus Pita could be Zeus' equivalent though, especially since Zeus' Roman equivalent Jupiter is also known as Deus Pater.

What do you think?
 
Kindest Regards, Gnostradamus!

Thank you for your post, and apologies for the delay in responding.

Now I better understand what it is you are looking for. In the end, I think you will find that the language connection is not without merit, it does help with the connections you are trying to make. Many of the names you are looking to draw together do so from transliteration, the taking of one name into another language. For instance: Jesus - Iesus - Zeus. Which, while for understanding for those not so versed I use the name Jesus, in my own understanding I go by his hebrew name Yashua (or Yeshua), which better translates into English as Joshua.

I think Hyslop's book will give you a huge head start on what you are looking for, even if for some reason his conclusions do not coincide with your own. In it you will find the linguistic connections between very many of the names of the pagan pantheon across cultures, as well as the history. For example (off the top of my head), Noah has a counterpart in the pagan world known as Janus, he who looks into two worlds. Indeed, the story of the flood has its counterpart across many cultures according to Charles Berlitz.

I do have concern however, if your purpose is to attempt to discredit Judaism or Christianity (or Islam) by drawing direct association with the pagan pantheon. It is not quite that simple. The cultures that comprise those pagans that took upon themselves the mantle of "multiple gods" are set at odds with the monotheistic races by tradition. The enmity between the two runs deep and far back into history. I could even say that a great deal of the history of the Middle East, Western Asia and the Eastern Mediteranean is the record of the power struggle between these differing cultures attempting to establish dominance over each other. So, as I frequently do, I must stress tolerance, regardless of which side you may choose to side with. I hope this helps. :)
 
Everything started with African polytheism, then it went to Egypt and Mesopotamia. Those influenced judaism and Indo-European religions.
 
Kindest Regards, queenofsheba, and welcome to CR!
queenofsheba said:
Everything started with African polytheism, then it went to Egypt and Mesopotamia. Those influenced judaism and Indo-European religions.
Click to expand...
Since it is suggested by anthropology that modern humans first came from Africa, I can see one making a statement such as this. However, I have seen nothing to support such a statement. I could agree with African shamanism being the first, but not polytheism. There is no evidence in the archeological record of polytheism until Mesopotamia, and from there to Egypt. There is a difference between shamanism/animism and polytheism, and considering that until recent times shamanism was the dominant form of religion in Africa and there is little example of polytheism except around Egypt, I doubt that polytheism ever had a major influence in Africa to begin with.

I would be happy to see any evidence you may have to support your statement. :)
 
There is no written evidence, since the Africans didn't have a writing. However, there are lots of polytheistic myths in the oral traditions of all Africa. Here's a link:
http://www.pantheon.org/areas/mythology/africa/african
Animism and shamanism are elements within African polytheism, they aren't seperate religions. These terms were often used by colonists to describe the "primitive" religions of Africa. In reality, African mythology is as rich and diverse as the Greek or Mesopotamian.
 
Gnostradamus said:
Greetings,

Does anyone share my view that Greco-Roman faiths, Hindu faiths, and Abrahamic faiths can all be traced back to Mesopotamia?
Click to expand...

I will go one further and claim they all had the same basic cosmic myth on which their religions were based.
 
Would that be shared from a single original source, or simply be similar perceptions of the existence that overlap?
 
I said:
Would that be shared from a single original source, or simply be similar perceptions of the existence that overlap?
Click to expand...

Both and neither. If there is a "single source" it would be exceedingly ancient and somewhat immaterial at this point. Cosmic myths are semi-living and fluid. When a cosmic event occurs it becomes part of the myth. Different cultures interpret the event according to how it effected their culture. Then when they are perhaps later conquered, they would then incorporate a new cultures myth into the same constellation. In my book (when it is published) I used the meteor shower which triggered the Great Famine in EB III as an example on how different cultures viewed the event and then added to their already existing cosmic myth.
 
Why all of them?
Some faiths must have come from Europe and
much of the ancient European faiths were influenced by the Indo-European invasion that doesn't fit in.
Also much of greek culture was started by the Phoenixans or some such name. A sea traveling trading people the invadision destroyed the old culture.
this made connections with greek and Africa.

Also is not Egypt closer to Europe?
Dont underestimate Africa and the nomadic slavic people.
And some religions must have been native to Europe.
 
Satanist said:
Why all of them?
Some faiths must have come from Europe and
much of the ancient European faiths were influenced by the Indo-European invasion that doesn't fit in.
Also much of greek culture was started by the Phoenixans or some such name. A sea traveling trading people the invadision destroyed the old culture.
this made connections with greek and Africa.

Also is not Egypt closer to Europe?
Dont underestimate Africa and the nomadic slavic people.
And some religions must have been native to Europe.
Click to expand...

You are correct. The syncretism is very complex at times. However all the cultures in the northern hemisphere in the European/Asian/African arena of influence all saw the same sky and utilized similar myths to explain the constellations and used the same planets, sun and moon to name their gods, months, and days of the week.

The Canaanite/Phonecian culture wrote the original OT myths. These came primarily from the Mesopotamian region, and also show Egyptian influence. The Phonecians and Egyptians influenced the Greeks, who in turn would later influence Judaism and Christianity.

If you wish to claim ancient Mesopotamia got its culture or influence from early European invaders/settlers or ancient Africans, that is fine. My research really doesn't cover that aspect.
 
Since I now Understand that you meant spheres of cultural influence
this make the question and topic more specific.

I would just like to add or rather clairify that I mentioned the Indo-European invadors that went passt middle asia and imported indian mythos directly to Celtic and germanic religion.
My point is that that both bypassed Mesopotamia
and (in the form of the Jonic warrior culture that influenced Sparta) wrecked the pre-Phonecian culture in now-Greece.

Also now I add that Mesopotamia never had a stable native cultural development.

It developed more like China. New cultures invaded and eventually took over.

Influences from the nomads.

A good example is the difference between Babylonic culture and Persian Culture.

However to support your theory I agree that Mesopotamia was one of the oldest and largest flood cultures with a unique advantage
that attracted or influenced many other cultures for along part of history.

However Egypt was equally independent and more stable, smaller and homogenous.

In additíon the old flood cultures orginated becouse of well..the floods
so there are at least tree such old "orgin" spots in middle east and Europe
of which there is supposed to be a historicaly smaller( no big empire) one in actual Europe.



I wonder how the slavic and scandinavial peoples fit your research.

The slavic peoples had complex connacts with nomadic cultures to the middle eastern area and to Antique Europe.

Also what about the african cultures within the Egyptian sphere of influence
and separation between Egypt and Mesopotamia?
 
Satanist said:
Since I now Understand that you meant spheres of cultural influence
this make the question and topic more specific.

I would just like to add or rather clairify that I mentioned the Indo-European invadors that went passt middle asia and imported indian mythos directly to Celtic and germanic religion.
My point is that that both bypassed Mesopotamia
and (in the form of the Jonic warrior culture that influenced Sparta) wrecked the pre-Phonecian culture in now-Greece.

Also now I add that Mesopotamia never had a stable native cultural development.

It developed more like China. New cultures invaded and eventually took over.

Influences from the nomads.

A good example is the difference between Babylonic culture and Persian Culture.

However to support your theory I agree that Mesopotamia was one of the oldest and largest flood cultures with a unique advantage
that attracted or influenced many other cultures for along part of history.

However Egypt was equally independent and more stable, smaller and homogenous.

In additíon the old flood cultures orginated becouse of well..the floods
so there are at least tree such old "orgin" spots in middle east and Europe
of which there is supposed to be a historicaly smaller( no big empire) one in actual Europe.



I wonder how the slavic and scandinavial peoples fit your research.

The slavic peoples had complex connacts with nomadic cultures to the middle eastern area and to Antique Europe.

Also what about the african cultures within the Egyptian sphere of influence
and separation between Egypt and Mesopotamia?
Click to expand...

You have many questions that cannot be answered in a quick and dirty post. At the end of the age of Taurus, Egypt fell into anarchary and Mesopotamia became the dominate culture over the Canaanites and the rest of the world. Hammurabi (Solomon in the Bible) was the dominant force.

The flood myth which was connected to the constellation Argo (spring time/summer time flooding constellation) which was apparently a boat even in ancient times. Sumeria has the earliest flood myth that I know of- circa 2200 BCE.

The northern cultures has similar myths. Their days of the week were named after the same planets/sun/moon and in the same arrangement as everyone else and the same as what we have today. Their myths mean the same, but are different in form. For instance they have the birth of the sun as girl in a red cape being cut out of a black wolf. In Greece and Judea it was a man being cut out the belly of a great fish. On the surface the stories have very little similarities. It is only in the context of a cosmic myth do they become similar. Twins are Gemini. Bulls are Taurus. Founders of culture are Centaurus. Grain godess/ holy whore/ sacred virgin is Virgo. Death of the sun is the winter solstice. In ancient times it was Fomalhaut, a star which also represented the temple of Dagon (Sampson (meaning solar) gets his hair cut and eyes poked out (winter time for the sun) now destroys the Philistines at the temple of Dagon.

A super nova occured at the foot of Pegasus. This was where Joshua stopped the sun and where Apollo's chariot of the sun was stolen and driven across the night time sky. These stories are not similar, but both represent a night time sun.

The fall of Jericho and the fall of Troy also both take place in Pegasus. Troy actually uses a horse in the story. Jericho does not because the Hebrews never connected the constellation to a horse. But the walls came down on both cities and they were destoyed. Note- these were in part historical events too. Historical events were placed into the cosmos. They would go into similar locations.
 
when people decided to/could write does not necessarily prove that the oldest writing is the origin of the story/myth or belief.
for all we know, the flood myth/stories, is the same & could be from the original 8, on the ark in the bible writings, first through oral tradition.

like i really dont care either way.
2 pennies for the pot:)
 
Bandit said:
when people decided to/could write does not necessarily prove that the oldest writing is the origin of the story/myth or belief.
for all we know, the flood myth/stories, is the same & could be from the original 8, on the ark in the bible writings, first through oral tradition.

like i really dont care either way.
2 pennies for the pot:)
Click to expand...

Are you saying bible writings were the first writings?

I really didn't catch what you meant other than that myths could predate writing.
But I correct that both writing and the myths predate biblic religion
and nothing oral can be biblic becouse Bible means "book".
In addition most religious books collect and summarize tradiotions.
They do not keep the same collection or association as before writing.
The same counts for any modern research that go from research into book form.
 
Satanist said:
Are you saying bible writings were the first writings?

I really didn't catch what you meant other than that myths could predate writing..
Click to expand...

up to here we agree and it does not matter to me what writings came first.
But I correct that both writing and the myths predate biblic religion
and nothing oral can be biblic becouse Bible means "book".
In addition most religious books collect and summarize tradiotions.
They do not keep the same collection or association as before writing.
The same counts for any modern research that go from research into book form.
Click to expand...

well, you have your opinions & i have mine.
 
Gnostradamus said:
Greetings,

Does anyone share my view that Greco-Roman faiths, Hindu faiths, and Abrahamic faiths can all be traced back to Mesopotamia?
Click to expand...
Greetings, Gnostradamus! (Great username, BTW) I agree w/Abrahamic faiths as derived from Mesopotamia - see, for example, F. Cross,Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic.
But Greco-Roman faiths, Hindu faiths? I'm not so sure. Do you have any evidence?
 
Kindest Regards, FriendRob!

I agree w/Abrahamic faiths as derived from Mesopotamia...But Greco-Roman faiths, Hindu faiths? I'm not so sure. Do you have any evidence?
Click to expand...
I am not Gnostradamus, but I can answer your question. Alexander Hislop wrote a book in the middle 1800's that pulled together the known archeology of the time. Since it was first published, the heirs of Mr. Hislop have allowed the book to be amended to take in more recent finds. That book is "The Two Babylons." It is every bit as scholarly and exhaustive as Frazer's "The Golden Bough." In short, you will find your connections, ad nauseum...

The proof is in museums around the world.

I hope this helps. :)
 
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