Mesopotamian Origins

FriendRob said:
Greetings, Gnostradamus! (Great username, BTW) I agree w/Abrahamic faiths as derived from Mesopotamia - see, for example, F. Cross,Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic.
But Greco-Roman faiths, Hindu faiths? I'm not so sure. Do you have any evidence?
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Hi FriendRob, I don't really have any evidence, just observations.
If you look at the pantheons of the Greco-Roman, Vedic, and Mesopotamian (Sumerian) traditions, they kind of follow the same structure where they have a Lord (Zeus/Jupiter/Indra/Enlil) which at some point in time was considered to be the supreme ruler of the gods...
a heavenly father and a mother earth (Cronus/Saturn/Dyaus Pita/Anu)...
whole heaven and whole earth (Uranus/Varuna/Anshar)...
and primordial/chaos deities (Chaos/Kasyapa/Apsu).
 
The Bible reveals that man’s original home was "a garden in Eden." (Ge 2:8; Its indicated location is relatively near the place of mankind’s early post-Flood civilization. The view generally accepted by scholars is expressed by P. J. Wiseman as follows: "All the real evidence we have, that of Genesis, archaeology, and the traditions of men, points to the Mesopotamian plain as the oldest home of man. Far Eastern civilization, whether Chinese or Indian, cannot compete with this land in the antiquity of its peoples, for it can easily sustain its claim to be the cradle of civilization."—New Discoveries in Babylonia About Genesis, 1949, p. 28.
 
Ancient Babylon was outstandingly noted for its religion and its defiance of Jehovah
 
Did​
the Cross Come From Babylon?​

"Babylonia," "Chaldea," and "Mesopotamia" all refer to the same general area of what today is Iraq. Julien Ries of the Université Catholique de Louvain-la-Neuve in Belgium writes: ‘The cross is present in the ancient cultures of Asia, Europe, North Africa, and America [including] in Mesopotamia [where] the cross with four equal arms is the sign for heaven and the god Anu.’ The "Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words" is more specific, saying that the cross "had its origin in ancient Chaldea, and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz (being in the shape of the mystic Tau, the initial of his name)." So the cross is clearly of pre-Christian origin. Some have suggested that Tammuz, also called Dumuzi, was originally a king and was deified after his death. For example, O. R. Gurney writes in the "Journal of Semitic Studies": "Dumuzi was originally a man, a king of Erech." Could this be a possible reference to Nimrod, of whom the Bible says, "The beginning of his kingdom came to be Babel and Erech"? (Genesis 10:10) At present, there is no way of knowing for sure.​
 
Once again mee you are positing the contents of the Bible as if this constitutes historical fact.

There have been many books written over the years which accurately describe what understandings the archaeological and paleoanthropological evidence conveys to us today concerning ancient Mesopotamia.

I suggest that you access some of this information and not rely upon your favored cut-and-paste sources to form your opinions.

An excellent place to begin would be any of the several books about ancient Mesopotamia written by Zechariah Sitchin. I believe that his first was The Twelfth Planet. It goes back into the mythological sources which were the foundation for the belief systems of ancient Mesopotamians.

BTW, ancient inhabitants of Malta used the cross symbol in many ways before the Mesopotamians did.

flow....;)
 
gosh, flow, do you know EVERYTHING? I am constantly amazed at the wealth of your knowledge.awesome. When Brady has assignments this year, we arent going to google, we are going to ask flow.
 
Hi Grey...Nope, I sure don't know everything, but when it comes to science and religion I know enough to get hacked off when somebody begins to spread around mis or dis information. That's a real big reason that the world is so screwed up.

If you asked me about how a jet engine is engineered or how to train a good bird dog I would just be another Elmer Fudd shootin' a blunderbuss at "wascawy wabbits". When someone knows a little about a lot of things it's my opinion that they should serve as a resource for others to understand what the knower knows. I see it all as a public service.

And I know by experience when it is that I'm talking with a nice lady. What's Brady studying ? I still think Google would be a better bet for him, more choice regarding what to believe. Besides, information obtained from old farts is sometimes out of date. Still interested in that bartending job at the Corral ? I'll bet you'd get great tips.

Cheers !....flow....;)
 
mee said:
The view generally accepted by scholars is expressed by P. J. Wiseman as follows: "All the real evidence we have, that of Genesis, archaeology, and the traditions of men, points to the Mesopotamian plain as the oldest home of man. Far Eastern civilization, whether Chinese or Indian, cannot compete with this land in the antiquity of its peoples, for it can easily sustain its claim to be the cradle of civilization."—New Discoveries in Babylonia About Genesis, 1949, p. 28.
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1949 eh? You need to catch up. Middle eastern archaeologists abandoned bibliocentrism more than three decades ago. The view generally accepted by scholars today is that the Bible presents foundational mythology which has almost no relationship to historical fact.

Chris
 
flowperson said:
Hi Grey...Nope, I sure don't know everything, but when it comes to science and religion I know enough to get hacked off when somebody begins to spread around mis or dis information. That's a real big reason that the world is so screwed up.

If you asked me about how a jet engine is engineered or how to train a good bird dog I would just be another Elmer Fudd shootin' a blunderbuss at "wascawy wabbits". When someone knows a little about a lot of things it's my opinion that they should serve as a resource for others to understand what the knower knows. I see it all as a public service.

And I know by experience when it is that I'm talking with a nice lady. What's Brady studying ? I still think Google would be a better bet for him, more choice regarding what to believe. Besides, information obtained from old farts is sometimes out of date. Still interested in that bartending job at the Corral ? I'll bet you'd get great tips.

Cheers !....flow....;)
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oh flow, dont under estimate your self.I love watching you point out the facts . Brady is only grade 6, so god knows what assignments Ill be doing this year.lol. Last year, tyson completed grade 12 and I can honestly say, I didnt do to bad at some of his assignments. Imight have even passed had I completed my senior year. lol. And yes, ill be the barkeep.. but you know Ill drink all the profits.
 
Hi Chris
Met him some years ago. Just a small slight jewish fellow in a rumpled suit. I don't think he does peyote. Most of his early research was done in solitude at the New York Public Library. His work has really changed a lot of things.

flow....;)
 
China Cat Sunflower said:
1949 eh? You need to catch up. Middle eastern archaeologists abandoned bibliocentrism more than three decades ago. The view generally accepted by scholars today is that the Bible presents foundational mythology which has almost no relationship to historical fact.

Chris
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many things were discovered years ago, and reveal how things were , and are still relevent today,

even though that book was printed in 1949 it is still good reading it does not make discoveries found then ,out of date ,it reveals much knowledge . And yes, even more up to date books are making known more discoveries that have been found later on
 
mee...I believe you've missed Chris' point. Perhaps the most famous archaeologist of the ancient Mesopotamians was Sir Leonard Woolley who excavated royal complexes there in the 1930's .He too found wondrous things. Undoubtedly the information you've cited which was published in 1949 was also chock full of useful information. These discoveries were interpreted according to the standards of their eras. But interpretations tend to shift and expand over time as new discoveries are made.

But the art and science of archaeology is the context in which the discovered information is interpreted and understood. As Chris pointed out, that has decidedly shifted in academic circles from interpreting the discoveries in the light of Biblical mythology and stories which were usually mistakenly considered to be history, until the past thirty years or so; to one in which related discoveries in other locations over the years have pointed to interconnections in the ancient world that just make more practical sense than myths.

Sadly this is not going to happen much any more in Iraq because of the horribly destructive war your nation and mine have imposed upon theses poor people and their heritage for many years now. But then maybe that's just the point. Maybe someone simply doesn't want any of us to find the real truths still hidden under the sands of Iraq.

flow....:rolleyes:
 
Hey Chris...Can you imagine just what the valiant and fearless Government of the USA is doing with our tax dollars these days ?

I missed this but it appears that government agents arrested Mr. Sitchin sometime ago and are now trying him for...well, I don't know or understand the charges. The Government even wanted to imprison him until the trial, which was going on in September, but I believe all information has since been totally cut off *surprise*.

Suffice it to say, our enemy is now a slight, seventy-ish, Jewish, self taught scholar who came up with some original ideas about Sumer/Mesopotamia/Iraq and its origins and had the audacity to publish them in BOOKS !. Even I don't agree with all of his conclusions, but he has generated prodigious amounts of original information which helps us all to understand the "bigger" pictures of our origins and destiny. That's, IMHO, the real reason they're clonking Sitchin with these bogus charges.

This poor guy is the new template for the "terrorists" that we are all supposed to loath and fear. As I've said many times on this site, if you "think too much" in America these days, you automatically become an extremeist or terrorist in the eyes and minds of the snoops. And that's especially so if you are a knowledgeable independent scholar and not "controlled" by an extant institutional framework such as a University or politicized "think tank".

Who are they gonna demonize next, Harry Potter ? Oh...they've already tried that in a covert manner through right wing religious organizations..

Here's a GOVERNMENT CENSORED blog about the daily happenings at Sitchin's trial, at least up to 9/9/07. And of course the evidence records have been sealed so that none of us may see or understand what may really be going on.

flow....:eek::cool:

2012 on Trial
p.s.
I wish to amend my rant to say that I have found no corroborating evidence on the web for my suppositions or the trial, including Sitchin's website. So it just all may be a bogus mis-dis information plant by parties unknown to trigger rants by old farts. Please take that possibility into account.

flow....:rolleyes:
http://www.sitchin.com/
 
Hislop's "Two Babylons" is complete and unmitigated rubbish. He could make up anything he wanted, then, since the decipherment of the languages was then in its infancy.
 
Etymological and English-Sumerian dictionary and lexicon projects have been underway at the Universities of Pennsylvania and Chicago for at least twenty years. Neither project is yet completed, although some volumes have been issued by each project. It takes a long time.
I did a little web browsing and I really had no idea how log one of these projects take. The lexicon project at Chicago either withered in the mid-nineties, or went underground. Here's a really good article on the history of the Chicago Assyrian Dictionary:

Oriental Institute | THE CHICAGO ASSYRIAN DICTIONARY AT SEVENTY

flow....;)
 
From what I can tell the Sitchin trial appears to be a hoax. I have to admit that I don't have much faith in the credibility of any of the sources I googled up on the thing, though. So I just don't know. On the Wiki page on Sitchen there are a number of good resources both supportive and skeptical. I've seen Mr. Sitchens books around for a number of years. I have a number of friends who are in what I call the Space Wing of New Age thought, but I've never read any of Sitchens books, though I'm familiar with the basic concepts he proposes.

I know it's hard for people who live inside a belief system to understand, but out here beyond the dome one needn't subscribe wholly to any theory. I don't need to support any predisposition toward anything. I can change my mind in a flash as soon as I get better information. I wouldn't mind if the Bible was literal history. I don't NEED for it to be, or not to be.

Chris
 
Absolutely the right attitude to take with this stuff Chris. I've got my own ideas, but they're just that until corroborating information comes along.

flow....;)
 
bob x said:
Hislop's "Two Babylons" is complete and unmitigated rubbish. He could make up anything he wanted, then, since the decipherment of the languages was then in its infancy.
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Interesting...so I presume we can equally rubbish "The Golden Bough" by the same argument?
 
flowperson said:
. Maybe someone simply doesn't want any of us to find the real truths still hidden under the sands of Iraq.

flow....:rolleyes:
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i think that Jehovah reveals things at his own time and in his own way , and as his name means HE CAUSES TO BECOME what ever he whats to happen will . and no man can prevent it from becoming known . many things have been discovered to back up the truths in the bible ,and more than likely yet more will come to light .
 
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