mankinds common Grave

mee

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Hell is the common Grave of all mankind , the word sheol in hebrew ,and hades in greek mean just that , but some translations translate both sheol and hades as hell , and then but a false meaning to itand i think we all know what that false meaning is, i wonder how many people have been led along by this false teaching
 
In which case, there is no Hell, yes? But I was under the impression that JW's followed a belief in Hell - or have I misunderstood, and that JW's belief in death as the final separation from God with only the Chosen as with God after death?

By the way, for an short article on the issues of different names for Hell, there's a somewhat contentious article on CR here:
http://www.comparative-religion.com/articles/jesus_hell.php
 
I said:
In which case, there is no Hell, yes? But I was under the impression that JW's followed a belief in Hell - or have I misunderstood, and that JW's belief in death as the final separation from God with only the Chosen as with God after death?

By the way, for an short article on the issues of different names for Hell, there's a somewhat contentious article on CR here:
http://www.comparative-religion.com/articles/jesus_hell.php
If hell means the grave then yes there is a hell because we all die , but i do not believe that there is a firey hellfire as some say it is
 
mee said:
If hell means the grave then yes there is a hell because we all die , but i do not believe that there is a firey hellfire as some say it is
Agreed. There is the grave. "hell" is symbolic (or literal) for the concept of "seperation from God", as others believe.
 
thanks for that interpretation Mee.

so i guess that means it does not matter what religion we are & we all automatically go to heaven, since there is no place for departed souls, just a grave pit for the spirit & the body.
That is good to know.:)

speaking of death hell & the grave, did you know that we are baptized into his death? & not into a religious organization.
just checking there

my two cents worth :)
 
I said:
In which case, there is no Hell, yes? But I was under the impression that JW's followed a belief in Hell - or have I misunderstood, and that JW's belief in death as the final separation from God with only the Chosen as with God after death?

By the way, for an short article on the issues of different names for Hell, there's a somewhat contentious article on CR here:
http://www.comparative-religion.com/articles/jesus_hell.php
hey Brian:)
did you pull all that together yourself?
if so, you did a nice job with it.
 
There are three words translated "hell" in Scripture:
Gehenna (Greek): The place of punishment (Matthew 5:22,29; 10:28; and James 3:6)
Hades (Greek): The abode of the dead (Matthew 11:23; 16:18, Luke 16:23; Acts 2:27)
Sheol (Hebrew): The grave (Psalm 9:17; 16:10)

There are those who accept that hell is a place of punishment, but believe that the punishment is to be annihilated—to cease conscious existence. They can’t conceive that the punishment of the wicked will be conscious and eternal. If they are correct, then a man like Adolph Hitler, who was responsible for the deaths of millions, is being "punished" merely with eternal sleep. His fate is simply to return to the non-existent state he was in before he was born, where he doesn’t even know that he is being punished.

However, Scripture paints a different story. The rich man who found himself in hell (Luke 16:19–31) was conscious. He was able to feel pain, to thirst, and to experience remorse. He wasn’t asleep in the grave; he was in a place of "torment." If hell is a place of knowing nothing or a reference to the grave into which we go at death, Jesus' statements about hell make no sense. He said that if your hand, foot, or eye causes you to sin, it would be better to remove it than to "go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:43–48).

The Bible refers to the fate of the unsaved with such fearful words as the following:

  • "Shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2)
  • "Everlasting punishment" (Mathew 25:46)
  • "Weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 24:51)
  • "Fire unquenchable" (Luke 3:17)
  • "Indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish" (Romans 2:8,9)
  • "Everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord" (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
  • "Eternal fire...the blackness of darkness for ever" (Jude 7,13)
Revelation 14:10,11 tells us the final, eternal destiny of the sinner: "He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone...the smoke of their torment ascended up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day or night."
 
mynameisstephen said:
There are three words translated "hell" in Scripture:
Gehenna (Greek): The place of punishment (Matthew 5:22,29; 10:28; and James 3:6)
Actually, Gehenna referred to a real place on earth- the local city dump, where there were piles of burning refuse and carcasses. As an actual place, it is a metaphor for the awfulness of being separated from God.

If they are correct, then a man like Adolph Hitler, who was responsible for the deaths of millions, is being "punished" merely with eternal sleep. His fate is simply to return to the non-existent state he was in before he was born, where he doesn’t even know that he is being punished.
This depends on how horrid you perceive being consciously separated from God to be. Physical torment is irrelevent from the ultimate pain of the soul recognizing his very real separation from the love of God. Here on earth we have temporary distractions to alleviate this suffering if we don't experience God- other people, our work, our stuff. After we die, we're alone. We're suddenly our deepest self, and all our actions are laid bare, and we are without occupation, status, or wealth. All we have is ourselves and God, and if we haven't prepared ourselves to be with God, we will not recognize Him. We will be utterly alone and afraid, because humans were created to return to God and also to be social creatures. It is the ultimate torment to be consciously alone and unable to be with God.

Maybe you see this as getting off easy, but I don't. If I ask you, as a believer, what is the best thing about your life? Would you say your physical health, or not being in danger of physical harm? My guess is that you'd say the best thing about your life, your greatest blessing, is God. Conversely, the worst torment is being without Him.

I don't believe this state is permanent, however, nor do I think that these unfortunate souls are winked out of existence. I think they will continue in their pain and misery until they turn toward God and put in the effort to prepare themselves to live in Him.

He said that if your hand, foot, or eye causes you to sin, it would be better to remove it than to "go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:43–48).
The saying to remove your hand/eye that causes sin are common Aramaic expressions. To remove the "hand that causes you to sin" is an idiomatic expression that means "Don't steal." And the "eye that causes you to sin" means "Don't covet." These expressions are still used by people in that area today.

I think that fire is appropriately a symbol of the torment of hell, because fire is also refining, purifying. In being in the state of conscious separation from God, utterly alone, one is in an anguished state that has the capacity to cause a purification of one's soul and a desire to turn toward God. I think this state continues until one comes to God, but I believe God is love and that any who come to Him at any time will be saved. I think our consciousness and capacity for choice continue after this life. And for those that think this is "too easy" for those that don't come to God in this life, I disagree. A life without connection to God is a life of spiritual pain, and I don't think we can overestimate the deep pain that the soul feels until s/he returns to God.
 
mynameisstephen said:
If they are correct, then a man like Adolph Hitler, who was responsible for the deaths of millions, is being "punished" merely with eternal sleep. His fate is simply to return to the non-existent state he was in before he was born, where he doesn’t even know that he is being punished.
That's an emotive argument, rather than a theological argument - and I find it hard to understand why you feel a need for retribution rather than annihilation. You also need to balance that with the fact that Christian exclusivism condemns children to this same place of torment, simply for their not being necessarily drawn to Christianity.


mynameisstephen said:
However, Scripture paints a different story. The rich man who found himself in hell (Luke 16:19–31) was conscious. He was able to feel pain, to thirst, and to experience remorse. He wasn’t asleep in the grave; he was in a place of "torment."
But you are taking parable as literal here - that's like demanding to know the name of the sower, and just exactly where the vineyard was.

mynameisstephen said:
If hell is a place of knowing nothing or a reference to the grave into which we go at death, Jesus' statements about hell make no sense. He said that if your hand, foot, or eye causes you to sin, it would be better to remove it than to "go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:43–48).
Read again on Gahenna - the rubbish dumps of Jerusalem where the condemned were dumped and burned.

From all accounts it was a pretty horrific place of continual fire, and one that any 1st century Jewish audience would be very familiar with.

With that in mind, Hell as Gahenna makes a lot of interesting sense - though of course, it is merely one perspective.
 
Kindest Regards, all!

Interesting conversation, but one I have gone over before, so I'll let you all have a go at it... :D
I said:
You also need to balance that with the fact that Christian exclusivism condemns children to this same place of torment, simply for their not being necessarily drawn to Christianity.
Ummm, Brian, I am not familiar with this teaching in any of the denominations I am familiar with. Quite the contrary, a child is born innocent and guiltless, and cannot sin until the age of accountability, that is, the age of understanding "right" from "wrong." Most place this age somewhere between 5 and 7 years of age, but with certain mental handicaps a person may never reach that age. Just an FYI to clear up a misconception I hear from time to time... ;)

I think there might be confusion with the teaching "we are born unto sin." However, until we realize what sin is, we cannot be held accountable. Unlike human laws, ignorance is a valid excuse with God, provided it is genuine and sincere ignorance, and not deliberate or feigned.
 
Right Juan. Age of accountability is a Christian teaching. Thanks for bringing that up.:)

Brian, I think you have a misconception about Christianity being exclusive, because i have seen that before. But in all honesty, Christ does not exclude anyone. People decide for themselves if they want to be included or excluded in the promises & the inheritance.:)

Stephen, I think you do have a point there with all those scriptures tied together. The Jews understood who lazarus was, they understood what the bosom of Abraham was & they all knew who the rich man was in relation to lazarus, which makes it a little bit less of a parable because he used real people, that they all knew.

Of course spirit does not have teeth to gnash & spirit cannot be burned in a literal fire. but yes it can be seperated from God forever as we see here, there is a great gulf that the rich man could not cross over into the bosom of Abraham, & that is what he thirsted for.
That is the point Jesus is making here. Not talking about an earthly rubbish pile, but using that to relaTE TO THE PARABLE.

Later Jesus says, why tell them (the rich mans relatives) because they will not believe it anyway.

any way, H-E-double tooth picks, like we called it as kids, because any other way, mom would have put a piece of soap in our mouths.:)
 
Gehenna occurs 12 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures, and it refers to the valley of Hinnom, outside the walls of Jerusalem. When Jesus was on earth, this valley was used as a garbage dump, "where the dead bodies of criminals, and the carcasses of animals, and every other kind of filth was cast." (Smith’s Dictionary of the Bible) The fires were kept burning by adding sulfur to burn up the refuse. Jesus used that valley as a proper symbol of everlasting destruction.

Revelation 20:13 states: "The sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Hades gave up those dead in them." Yes, the Bible hell will be emptied. As Jesus promised, "the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear [Jesus’] voice and come out." (John 5:28, 29) Although no longer presently existing in any form, millions of dead ones who are in Jehovah God’s memory will be resurrected, or brought back to life, in a restored earthly paradise.—Luke 23:43; Acts 24:15.​

In the new world of God’s making, resurrected humans who comply with his righteous laws will never need to die again. (Isaiah 25:8) Jehovah "will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore." In fact, "the former things [will] have passed away." (Revelation 21:4) What a blessing is in store for those in hell—"the memorial tombs"! This blessing indeed is reason enough for us to take in more knowledge of Jehovah God and his Son, Jesus Christ.—John 17:3.​



 
Sorry, Juan - I should have qualified it by pointing out that this referrers to some perceptions, especially where it is believed that there only a very small minority of people ever reach Heaven. For example, John 14:6; Matthew 7:13-14 & 21-23. I am actually under the impression that this is a pretty mainstream perception. Of course, there are different degrees of exclusivity/inclusivity across the Christian sphere, and I should have been more clear on this. :)
 
I said:
Sorry, Juan - I should have qualified it by pointing out that this referrers to some perceptions, especially where it is believed that there only a very small minority of people ever reach Heaven. For example, John 14:6; Matthew 7:13-14 & 21-23. I am actually under the impression that this is a pretty mainstream perception. Of course, there are different degrees of exclusivity/inclusivity across the Christian sphere, and I should have been more clear on this. :)
Brian, from Matthew, the verses you present, they are "choice" based results. The wide gate is much easier to pass through than a narrow one, especially if one has a lot of "baggage" with them (or chains if you will). Not many people are willing to lose the excess, in order to get through the narrow gate, or walk the narrow and steep path. Hard to focus on the path, when one keeps looking back to see what one might have dropped along the way.

The second set of verses pertain to the facade Christians. They pay lip service, but live very selfish, selfcentered lives. They serve no purpose for the betterment of mankind. (when I say they, I mean all of us are capable of becoming this way).

There is a story about the "beautiful people" being called to the wedding feast. They blew it off. Then the poor were called to come fill the tables. The term, "many are called, but few are chosen", comes from this story. But the term "few are chosen" does not mean God choses few. The term is an old variable, meaning few will choose. Hence many are called to the table of God...few will choose to come to it.

God doesn't decide who will come. The invite was for everyone. People choose who will come.

Glad to see you posting!

v/r

Q
 
Bandit said:
thanks for that interpretation Mee.

so i guess that means it does not matter what religion we are & we all automatically go to heaven, since there is no place for departed souls, just a grave pit for the spirit & the body.
That is good to know.:)

speaking of death hell & the grave, did you know that we are baptized into his death? & not into a religious organization.
just checking there

my two cents worth :)
according to my belief only a small number will be going to heaven to rule as kings and priests with Jesus christ,(revelation 5;10)(144,000)the rest of us , have the hope of the earthly resurrection so i dont think i will be going to heaven . i hope to have everlasting life on the earth ,not the earth the way it is now , but the paradise earth that the bible promises. so even if i die ,for what ever reason , there is a hope in the resurrection ,i am looking forward to the time when there will be no more death
For he (Jesus christ)must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing(1 corinthians 15;25-26)

And death and Ha´des (mankinds common grave)were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire(revelation 20;14)

(Isaiah 25:8) He will actually swallow up death forever, and the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will certainly wipe the tears from all faces. And the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, for Jehovah himself has spoken [it].​


(Romans 5:12) That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned—.​


(1 Corinthians 15:26) As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing

Never again will death be allowed to dominate God’s human creation.we are so used to death that its all part and parcel of our lives, but it was not suposed to be that way in the beginning , as we all know what happened in eden .but the works of satan will be broken up

that through his(Jesus christ) death he might bring to nothing the one having the means to cause death, that is, the Devil(Hebrews 2;14)

And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away(revelation 21;4)

and the living one; and I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Ha´des. (revelation 1;18)

(John 6:54) He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I shall resurrect him at the last day;​


(John 11:25) Jesus said to her: "I am the resurrection and the life. He that exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life

If the only future for persons now living were unconsciousness in death, then death would be an unbeatable enemy. But the Bible shows that it is not

 
mee said:
according to my belief only a small number will be going to heaven to rule as kings and priests with Jesus christ,(revelation 5;10)(144,000)the rest of us , have the hope of the earthly resurrection so i dont think i will be going to heaven . i hope to have everlasting life on the earth ,not the earth the way it is now , but the paradise earth that the bible promises. so even if i die ,for what ever reason , there is a hope in the resurrection ,i am looking forward to the time when there will be no more death
I will not deride your belief. I have an opinion, no, a very strong belief, that you will be in heaven, as well as a lot more than 144,000. chosen ones.

I think the 144,000 chosesn ones will hold postitions of authority, that the rest do not. but who cares! Gate Keeper, or Judge...heaven is Heaven! We are going.

Let me be one foot past Heaven's gate, before the Devil knows I'm dead...

v/r

Q
 
Quahom1 said:
I will not deride your belief. I have an opinion, no, a very strong belief, that you will be in heaven, as well as a lot more than 144,000. chosen ones.

I think the 144,000 chosesn ones will hold postitions of authority, that the rest do not. but who cares! Gate Keeper, or Judge...heaven is Heaven! We are going.

Let me be one foot past Heaven's gate, before the Devil knows I'm dead...

v/r

Q
yes i also think they will rule over the earth .And they are to rule as kings over the earth(revelation 5;10)



(Daniel 7:18) But the holy ones of the Supreme One will receive the kingdom, and they will take possession of the kingdom for time indefinite, even for time indefinite upon times indefinite.’





(Revelation 3:21) To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.​


Luke 12:32: "Have no fear, little flock, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom." (These do not include all who have exercised faith; the number is limited. Their being in heaven is for a purpose.)








(Revelation 14:1) And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads...........so if they are in positions of kings and priests they have got to have subjectsto rule over and my belief is that those subjects will be on the earth ,and lots of those subjects will have been resurrected back on to the earthfrom the dead

John 5:28, 29: "Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice [the voice of Jesus] and come out , so persons remembered by God will be resurrected with the opportunity to live forever.





 
mee said:
yes i also think they will rule over the earth .And they are to rule as kings over the earth(revelation 5;10)...
Those are the 12,000 (each) from the 12 tribes of Israel...are you claiming to be one the lost tribes? Is that what your faith claims?

v/r

Q
 
Quahom1 said:
Those are the 12,000 (each) from the 12 tribes of Israel...are you claiming to be one the lost tribes? Is that what your faith claims?

v/r

Q
not me i am hoping to live on the earth not heaven , but the 144000 who are spiritual jews from all nations are those ruling from heaven .revelation is symbolic for the most part , they are spiritual Jews not fleshly Jews
For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and [his] circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God(romans 2;28-29)

Matt. 21:42, 43: "Jesus said to them [the chief priests and the older men of the Jews in Jerusalem]: ‘Did you never read in the Scriptures, "The stone that the builders rejected is the one that has become the chief cornerstone. From Jehovah this has come to be, and it is marvelous in our eyes"? This is why I say to you, The kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits..........so that nationproducing the right fruitage is taken from all differant nations that then make up the one spiritual nation of 144000

Gal. 3:27-29: "All of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one person in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise." (So, from God’s standpoint, it is no longer natural descent from Abraham that determines who are Abraham’s seed.)

Matt. 23:37, 38: "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her,—how often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks together under her wings! But you people did not want it. Look! Your house is abandoned to you

Acts 4:11, 12: "[Regarding Jesus Christ, the apostle Peter was moved by holy spirit to say to the Jewish rulers and older men in Jerusalem:] This is ‘the stone that was treated by you builders as of no account that has become the head of the corner.’ Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved." (Although the nation of natural Israel no longer enjoys special divine favor, the way is open to individual Jews, as it is to people of all nations, to benefit from the salvation that is made possible through Jesus the Messiah.)

 
Kindest Regards, mee!

but the 144000 who are spiritual jews from all nations are those ruling from heaven .revelation is symbolic for the most part , they are spiritual Jews not fleshly Jews.
I was hoping this would come around sooner or later.

Look again at the 144,000. ONLY 12,000 of them are "Jews." The rest are the remnant of ISRAEL. Big difference. Even if one considers Jewish/Biblical history, and counts the tribes of Levi and Benjamin, that still only accounts for 36,000.

Please also note that the tribe of Dan is omitted, and the tribe of Joseph, long split into two "half-tribes" of Manassah and Ephraim, is now counted as two whole tribes.

Just an FYI.

So, if they are "heavenly Jews" and not Earthly, is this remnant then to be considered "Messianic Jews," when so few beyond the Jews themselves keep the "whole" law? Or does some other validation surround them? Clearly, all 144,000 cannot possibly be JW's?
 
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