Faith, Works, and Salvation

I have to admit, I find the discussion over "works vs faith" curious - I would have presumed that faith would express itself as works, therefore you see the fruits in action. However, a lot of the focus on "faith" I sometimes find hard to reconcile with a "faith" that results in "works".
 
I said:
I have to admit, I find the discussion over "works vs faith" curious - I would have presumed that faith would express itself as works, therefore you see the fruits in action. However, a lot of the focus on "faith" I sometimes find hard to reconcile with a "faith" that results in "works".
Click to expand...

In otherwords, "shut up and get the job done"...I have to agree, Brian.

v/r

Q
 
path_of_one said:
As a Christian, are we saved by our faith/belief or by what we do with it? This key question is discussed throughout the New Testament, I believe to no real conclusion. Some writers emphasize faith/belief, others emphasize works. And on into today- some churches and theologians think salvation rests on one's beliefs, while other think it rests on one's actions. I would wager that we all agree it really rests on God's grace, but it brings us back to the question of how that grace is metered out amongst us. Is it freely given to all? Only to believers? Only to believers whose actions testify their beliefs- and how much of this is enough? Only to those whose actions follow Christ's example, no matter what their beliefs? I have some opinions of my own, but my point with this thread is not to try to convince you all into my own thoughts on the matter, but rather I am very interested in the (no doubt) varied perspectives that are out there.

For anyone interested in discussing what the original Greek and/or Aramaic said, I'd welcome the illumination- because I don't know if the word "belief/believe" was originally multiple different meanings/words in the original text and it just came to be all lumped under that English word, or if it really is consistent throughout.

Here's a few passages to start us off:
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotton Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
John 3: 16

"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well. The demons also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"
James 2:19-20
Click to expand...

Psalms 74:12 For God is my King of old, working salvation in the midst of the earth.

I Timothy 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

God also works for the salvation of all men, but it cannot be denied that there are children of disobedience. As a God of justice, he can't just bring them to eternal life, when they don't repent and abhor those which are evil. God is not a dictator Creator. He by his holiness gives men free will (no interference from Him in the moment of decision) but as a loving God, He also predestine some.

Faith is a crucial ingredient of the knowledge of the truth. Because truth came from God and this God of truth and of knowledge is an Invisible One, so we have to live by faith if we do aim to live the life promised by Christ.

But wait, God indeed works, so do we also! It's a must.

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
 
Unless I'm seriously mistaken, the leaders of the Lutheran faith (except I believe the Missouri Synod) and the Vatican came to an agreement in the late 90's that at least good works and grace (I don't recall if faith was mentioned, but it would seem to me to be a given) are both parts of G-d's plan for humanity's well being on the earth and share equivalency.

Does anyone else remember this happening, or am I trippin' ?

flow....:)
 
flowperson said:
Unless I'm seriously mistaken, the leaders of the Lutheran faith (except I believe the Missouri Synod) and the Vatican came to an agreement in the late 90's that at least good works and grace (I don't recall if faith was mentioned, but it would seem to me to be a given) are both parts of G-d's plan for humanity's well being on the earth and share equivalency.

Does anyone else remember this happening, or am I trippin' ?

flow....:)
Click to expand...
No, I don't know about this. I'm studying theology at a Lutheran seminary and it seems I should have heard if there was such an agreement, esp. since there are also Catholic students studying there. I have heard much about the value of grace. It has seemed that the word "grace" is every other word they say and I get the feeling "works" is a dirty word. I have heard that here in Ontario the Evangelical Lutheran Church has worked out an agreement with the Anglican Church for a Common Communion. That was finalized very recently--like perhaps one or two years ago.
 
Hmmmmm...maybe agreement was not a good choice of wording to use. I distinctly remember news reports of a concurrence between the leaders of each denomination, and that their concurrence applied regarding the relative importance of grace and good works to human existence, which had been one of the the major dogmatic disputes between Catholic and Lutheran teachings and beliefs for centuries.

Again I may be wrong, or maybe it was just another corporate-owned media distortion of the truth that entered my mind like a destructive virus and only now emerged in a CR discussion

Ask your professors and let us know about it if you can find the time...thanks.

flow....:)
 
In my opinion, (and I've done it), the worst thing to do to the word 'Faith' is to use it to mean a religion or a set of beliefs, or even to do what is good for someone. It removes from the proper definition of the word. The word Faith in the Bible or in the Qur'an are not applicable to 'a religion' or 'a belief'.

What does the following mean to anyone?
Matthew 17:20. I tell you the truth, If you have Faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.
 
I've been struggling with this for a long time. I believe that we are saved by faith and faith alone. The Bible says that works are importatnt. I believe works are important, because they show the world what you believe. The Bible says that Faith without works is dead. However, works without Faith doesn't bring about Salvation either. Jesus wants us to deny ourselves and follow Him, but He wants our works to be genuine as well. He often talked about the hypocracy of the Pharisees, and how they would do good deeds just to be seen by man. There is a verse that says that God plans what works we will do in advance. As long as we love God and put our trust in Him, He will reveal Himself to us and show us what He wants from us. To believe anything else makes God out to be prejudiced, or makes it sound like God doesn't want to save everyone. As long as someone is soft towards the Holy Spirit, they should produce good fruits in my opinion.
 
Salvation is by faith alone, and not by any of our self efforts.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God..."

Ephesians 2:8
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top