JJM
Well-Known Member
I realize now you weren't referring to that scroll but I thought you were at first that is why I said that. What makes you say that 1000 year reign will happen after Armageddon?mee said:
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mee
Guest
because the vision in revelation 20;1-10is about the abyssing of satan, the millennial reign, mankinds final test, and satans destruction. the time of fullfillment is from the end of the great tribulation to the destruction of satanJJM said:
JJM
Well-Known Member
ok I have yet to read revelations in it's entirety so I can't really argue with you. If you see revelations as a chronological story written to mean exactly what it says rather than a cryptic set of letters with hidden meanings to protect them from the Romans who would like to destroy them then you are absolutely correct.mee said:
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mee
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Dead loved ones will be restored to life with the prospect of never dying. All those sleeping in death who are in Jehovahs memory will be brought back to life. in fact, there is going to be a resurrection of both the rightous and the unrighteous...acts 24;15 john 5;28- 29what a marvelousfuture awaits those who choose to learn about our grand instructorJehovah God and to serve him. it was to the coming paradise on earth that Jesus pointed when he promised the evil doer who died along side him ...you will be with me in paradise....luke 23;43all of these blessing will be possibleand will come about through Jesus christ.wow what a promise that will come true.do you not agree that is some promise?
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
I disagree.. I believe the earth was made for man. Man was made for God.
And I also believe that He didnt make us to only allow 144,000 to see paradise in all the thousands of years of the history of the world.
The God I worship teaches hope through Jesus Christ who is our salvation.
mee said:
I see what you're saying. But the "dead" sleeping in the hope of Christ are long risen to heaven. And those that die today with Christ as their savior do not touch the grave spiritually, though their bodies return to dust. That is what Paul drove into our hearts and minds. No one who is saved in Christ goes to the grave spiritually. They will have new bodies at one time later, but now they enjoy the light of Christ in heaven.
Maybe later, some will stay in heaven, and some will return to the new earth (oh pick me, pick me!
). Actually, I'd rather explore the universe, and see all the wonders as they are. Back to the original thought. What we put into the ground (us saved), is but a shell that housed who we are. The spirit that is us moved on the instant the body could not sustain it's presence. We do not rest in the grave. I sure as hell wouldn't.
You once mentioned that we sleep until awakened, with no consideration of time passing. Even victims of coma's report time passing, and dreaming. You mentioned the spirit of man being mortal, but spirit is energy, and energy cannot be created nor destroyed...only changed, and once it is expended, it is out there forever. Energy does not rest. It can be contained, but it does not rest.
How can I consider the saved man as being uncontained while the unsaved man can be? Accepting Christ changes the spirit of a man, including the dynamics of that spirit. It is alive with the light of Christ, and is nolonger natural man.
Personally, I doubt that natural man's spirit remains within the body in the grave either. Though I shudder to think were that spirit ends up, while awaiting their judgement. Energy cannot be destroyed (according to current laws of physics).
Unfortunately no one has come back recently to confirm or deny how things go...not that can be observed and documented as proof...hence the faith part of things.
Personally, I'd like to see heaven, and all there is about it. And I'd love to see those I care so deeply about. But I want to explore what is out there, and want Jesus to show me. Pretty selfish I should think. But He is omnipresent, so I don't think I'd be taking away from anyone else's time with Him.
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mee
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yes i agree the earth was made for man to live on ,same thing really .and yes you are right , the new earth that is promised in 2;peter 3;13 will be for many more than 144000,the 144000 are the ones that will go to heaven to be with Christ Jesus in the heavenly kingdom ,and they are going there for a purpose ,and that purpose is to rule with christ as kings and priests over the earth, so they are not going for there own selfish reasons but because they are part of the rulership in the heavens.Faithfulservant said:
you(Jesus) were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth....rev 5;9-10
(Revelation 20:4) And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years
(Revelation 22:5) Also, night will be no more, and they have no need of lamplight nor [do they have] sunlight, because Jehovah God will shed light upon them, and they will rule as kings forever and ever
And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth rev 14;3
Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years. rev 20;6, but that does not mean that the rest of us are without hope because the rest of us have the hope to live forever on a new paradise earth with only the best of rulership, with Jesus as our king
And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd John 10;16
(Revelation 7:9) After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands....yes Jesus Chirst as you say is our salvation if we welcome his kingship.?
But there are new heavens(rulership) and a new earth (earthly society of people)that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell 2 peter 3;13
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mee
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yes in the lords day , many things regarding the resurrection of those who will rule with christ in the heavenly kingdom goverment are happening,but thosewho have the prospect of living on the new earth are yet sleeping in deathQuahom1 said:I see what you're saying. But the "dead" sleeping in the hope of Christ are long risen to heaven. And those that die today with Christ as their savior do not touch the grave spiritually, though their bodies return to dust. That is what Paul drove into our hearts and minds. No one who is saved in Christ goes to the grave spiritually. They will have new bodies at one time later, but now they enjoy the light of Christ in heaven.
Maybe later, some will stay in heaven, and some will return to the new earth (oh pick me, pick me!
Back to the original thought. What we put into the ground (us saved), is but a shell that housed who we are. The spirit that is us moved on the instant the body could not sustain it's presence. We do not rest in the grave. I sure as hell wouldn't.
You once mentioned that we sleep until awakened, with no consideration of time passing. Even victims of coma's report time passing, and dreaming. You mentioned the spirit of man being mortal, but spirit is energy, and energy cannot be created nor destroyed...only changed, and once it is expended, it is out there forever. Energy does not rest. It can be contained, but it does not rest.
How can I consider the saved man as being uncontained while the unsaved man can be? Accepting Christ changes the spirit of a man, including the dynamics of that spirit. It is alive with the light of Christ, and is nolonger natural man.
Personally, I doubt that natural man's spirit remains within the body in the grave either. Though I shudder to think were that spirit ends up, while awaiting their judgement. Energy cannot be destroyed (according to current laws of physics).
Unfortunately no one has come back recently to confirm or deny how things go...not that can be observed and documented as proof...hence the faith part of things.
Personally, I'd like to see heaven, and all there is about it. And I'd love to see those I care so deeply about. But I want to explore what is out there, and want Jesus to show me. Pretty selfish I should think. But He is omnipresent, so I don't think I'd be taking away from anyone else's time with Him.
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Q
Moreover, brothers, we do not want YOU to be ignorant concerning those who are sleeping [in death]; that YOU may not sorrow just as the rest also do who have no hope 1 thessalonians 4;13
(John 11:11) He said these things, and after this he said to them: "Laz´a·rus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep."
(Acts 7:60) Then, bending his knees, he cried out with a strong voice: "Jehovah, do not charge this sin against them." And after saying this he fell asleep [in death].
(Acts 7:60) Then, bending his knees, he cried out with a strong voice: "Jehovah, do not charge this sin against them." And after saying this he fell asleep [in death].
(1 Corinthians 15:6) After that he appeared to upward of five hundred brothers at one time, the most of whom remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep [in death] yes as the bible tells us death is like being asleep .we are not aware of any thing
For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten...Ecllesiastes 9;5
He (Jesus)said these things, and after this he said to them: "Laz´a·rus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep." Therefore the disciples said to him: "Lord, if he has gone to rest, he will get well." Jesus had spoken, however, about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. At that time, therefore, Jesus said to them outspokenly: "Laz´a·rus has died....John 11;11-14when you mentioned people in a coma the bible only tells us about dead people not people in a coma i am only interested in what the bible tells me about what happens when we die .and Jesus said that death is like being asleep we are not conscious of any thing ,untill the resurrection when Jesus brings us back to live
One cannot mix the OT with the NT concerning the death of man. It is apples and oranges. The OT gave man a promise of the coming of the Messiah and the raising of the dead. In the NT the Messiah is come and death is no more (for the faithful). One is a promise of a convenant, and the other is fulfillment of that covenant.
Second, If you think that people would be satified to be "ruled" by other people, in the afterlife, you are looking at another "rebellion". Jesus doesn't need help ruling over man, especially by other men. Nor is there a need for Jesus to have human "priests" to help minister to people, in the new heaven and new earth.
What you've just described is a "caste" system. That is unacceptable. And if that were the consensus Christian wide...I would have no part in Christianity. I would shake it off like dust from my boots.
I've lived most my life fighting against such condasending thinking, and resultant subjugation of people by the Authorities that "lord" it over them. I sure as hell wouldn't want to live eternity under such a form of government.
I recall a passage wherein Jesus made it clear that no man is greater or lesser than the other, and there are no favorites. All come short of the Glory of God.
I always thought that Christianity taught first and foremost, humility...not superiority over others.
Doesn't matter how one slices it up. To assume that one is going to be even a "candidate" for co-rulership over man with God, is a perilous pitfall, as it sounds a lot like what Lucifer thought, right before he crashed and burned.
v/r
Q
Second, If you think that people would be satified to be "ruled" by other people, in the afterlife, you are looking at another "rebellion". Jesus doesn't need help ruling over man, especially by other men. Nor is there a need for Jesus to have human "priests" to help minister to people, in the new heaven and new earth.
What you've just described is a "caste" system. That is unacceptable. And if that were the consensus Christian wide...I would have no part in Christianity. I would shake it off like dust from my boots.
I've lived most my life fighting against such condasending thinking, and resultant subjugation of people by the Authorities that "lord" it over them. I sure as hell wouldn't want to live eternity under such a form of government.
I recall a passage wherein Jesus made it clear that no man is greater or lesser than the other, and there are no favorites. All come short of the Glory of God.
I always thought that Christianity taught first and foremost, humility...not superiority over others.
Doesn't matter how one slices it up. To assume that one is going to be even a "candidate" for co-rulership over man with God, is a perilous pitfall, as it sounds a lot like what Lucifer thought, right before he crashed and burned.
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mee
Guest
i supose it depends on weather we believe the bible , because that is what the bible teaches .plus Jesus is the king of that heavenly goverment not just any man. he is the image of God with the attributes of God , LOVE,JUSTICE, WISDOM,POWERyes he will rule in a just way , not like the goverments around today which are all manmade . there is a big difference. was he not the greatest teacher on the earth when he was here as a man,plus people will not be ruled in the afterlife they will be on the earth enjoying the paradise earth.the ones in heaven are working along with Jesus .Quahom1 said:
mee said:
That concept strips man of his basic spiritual need...to accomplish things. I know that I can handle "Club Med" for about 2 days before I begin to go stir crazy, for example. I have to do something, fix something, build something, solve a problem or a puzzle, create something.
LOL, while on a week long cruise on a ship, I repaired the sink in my stateroom, and begged permission from the Captian to go into the engineroom. Then I volunteered to be an "oiler" (one who cleans oil spots, dirt from the spaces, and lubricates mechanical parts, on a four to six hour watch schedule), just to give myself something constructive to do.
Without adventure, or goals, or dreams, the spirit of man atrophies. The idea that men will rule over me from heaven, while I sit on an earthly paradise (no matter how symbolic), just grates at my spirit. To be subjugated to man's rule for eternity just does not cut the mustard. I don't care how "special" those men might be. My inborn sense of being equal to all men, would rise up in defiance and rebellion. (That is why son must leave father and mother at some point and make his own way in the world).
You description of Man's paradise, would be hell to my spirit. Your description of man in heaven would put me loathe to enter that place.
We are told all our lives "Do not judge others", only to find myself standing in judgement over others, for ever? That isn't heaven. Neither is having someone else do everything for me.
I think heaven is much more than that. I know we aren't absorbed into some greater consciousness, because we are told we retain our own identities. That implies, our own drives, dreams, will, etc., be maintained.
Your heavenly concept would be a prison to some people. Yes, I'd like earth to be a perfect "home" to come to. But then after resting, I'd want to get back out into the cosmos to see what it is all about. I'd like to be in the presence of God (directly), with eternally implied consent. In other words, to visit with Him intimitely anytime I wished, and have Him glad to see me. But then when I wanted to go explore something, He'd smile and say "have at it".
Your presentation of heaven is rather limited and stifling for my tastes.
this is becoming an excersize in futility.
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mee
Guest
what makes you think that we are all going to be sat round doing nothing we dont even know what it will be like to live in perfection but the bible tells us that God will satisfy the desires of us all. we dont at the momment even use all of our brain capacitywho knows what we will be capable of when we do things the way God intended in the first place . but we didnt give God the chance did we .we though we knew better than GodQuahom1 said:That concept strips man of his basic spiritual need...to accomplish things. I know that I can handle "Club Med" for about 2 days before I begin to go stir crazy, for example. I have to do something, fix something, build something, solve a problem or a puzzle, create something.
LOL, while on a week long cruise on a ship, I repaired the sink in my stateroom, and begged permission from the Captian to go into the engineroom. Then I volunteered to be an "oiler" (one who cleans oil spots, dirt from the spaces, and lubricates mechanical parts, on a four to six hour watch schedule), just to give myself something constructive to do.
Without adventure, or goals, or dreams, the spirit of man atrophies. The idea that men will rule over me from heaven, while I sit on an earthly paradise (no matter how symbolic), just grates at my spirit. To be subjugated to man's rule for eternity just does not cut the mustard. I don't care how "special" those men might be. My inborn sense of being equal to all men, would rise up in defiance and rebellion. (That is why son must leave father and mother at some point and make his own way in the world).
You description of Man's paradise, would be hell to my spirit. Your description of man in heaven would put me loathe to enter that place.
We are told all our lives "Do not judge others", only to find myself standing in judgement over others, for ever? That isn't heaven. Neither is having someone else do everything for me.
I think heaven is much more than that. I know we aren't absorbed into some greater consciousness, because we are told we retain our own identities. That implies, our own drives, dreams, will, etc., be maintained.
Your heavenly concept would be a prison to some people. Yes, I'd like earth to be a perfect "home" to come to. But then after resting, I'd want to get back out into the cosmos to see what it is all about. I'd like to be in the presence of God (directly), with eternally implied consent. In other words, to visit with Him intimitely anytime I wished, and have Him glad to see me. But then when I wanted to go explore something, He'd smile and say "have at it".
Your presentation of heaven is rather limited and stifling for my tastes.
this is becoming an excersize in futility.
Q
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
JW's teach utopia.. not heaven. big difference.
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mee
Guest
Utopia?do you not believe what the bible tells us then,?the whole theme of the bible is about Gods kingdom govermentFaithfulservant said:
"And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite Daniel 2;44
Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment,,, John 5;28-29
Acts 24:15: "I have hope toward God . . . that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous." (Both those who lived in harmony with God’s righteous ways and people who, out of ignorance, did unrighteous things will be resurrected. The Bible does not answer all our questions as to whether certain specific individuals who have died will be resurrected. But we can be confident that God, who knows all the facts, will act impartially, with justice tempered by mercy that does not ignore his righteous standards. Compare Genesis 18:25.
Rev. 20:13, 14: "The sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Hades gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. And death and Hades were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire." (So, those whose death was to due to Adamic sin will be raised, whether they were buried at sea or in Hades, the common earthly grave of dead mankind.) so i would say that is not utopia but a bible promise or would you not agree?
Matt. 6:10: "Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth
Ps. 37:29: "The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
Etymology: Utopia, imaginary and ideal country in Utopia (1516) by Sir Thomas More, from Greek ou not, no + topos place
1 : an imaginary and indefinitely remote place
2 often capitalized : a place of ideal perfection especially in laws, government, and social conditions
3 : an impractical scheme for social improvement
Etymology: Middle English heven, from Old English heofon; akin to Old High German himil heaven
1 : the expanse of space that seems to be over the earth like a dome : [size=-1]FIRMAMENT[/size] -- usually used in plural
2 a often capitalized : the dwelling place of the Deity and the joyful abode of the blessed dead b : a spiritual state of everlasting communion with God
3 capitalized : [size=-1]GOD [/size]1
4 : a place or condition of utmost happiness
Etymology: Middle English paradis, from Old French, from Late Latin paradisus, from Greek paradeisos, literally, enclosed park, of Iranian origin; akin to Avestan pairi-daEza- enclosure; akin to Greek peri around and to Greek teichos wall -- more at [size=-1]PERI-[/size], [size=-1]DOUGH[/size]
1 a : [size=-1]EDEN [/size]2 b : an intermediate place or state where the righteous departed await resurrection and judgment c : [size=-1]HEAVEN[/size]
2 : a place or state of bliss, felicity, or delight
My bible teaches Heaven.. or Paradise according to websters dictionary... My bible does not teach Utopia.
Considering the word Utopia is not even IN the bible... well you know how that goes... My bible was written a bit before 1516..
1 : an imaginary and indefinitely remote place
2 often capitalized : a place of ideal perfection especially in laws, government, and social conditions
3 : an impractical scheme for social improvement
Etymology: Middle English heven, from Old English heofon; akin to Old High German himil heaven
1 : the expanse of space that seems to be over the earth like a dome : [size=-1]FIRMAMENT[/size] -- usually used in plural
2 a often capitalized : the dwelling place of the Deity and the joyful abode of the blessed dead b : a spiritual state of everlasting communion with God
3 capitalized : [size=-1]GOD [/size]1
4 : a place or condition of utmost happiness
Etymology: Middle English paradis, from Old French, from Late Latin paradisus, from Greek paradeisos, literally, enclosed park, of Iranian origin; akin to Avestan pairi-daEza- enclosure; akin to Greek peri around and to Greek teichos wall -- more at [size=-1]PERI-[/size], [size=-1]DOUGH[/size]
1 a : [size=-1]EDEN [/size]2 b : an intermediate place or state where the righteous departed await resurrection and judgment c : [size=-1]HEAVEN[/size]
2 : a place or state of bliss, felicity, or delight
My bible teaches Heaven.. or Paradise according to websters dictionary... My bible does not teach Utopia.
Considering the word Utopia is not even IN the bible... well you know how that goes... My bible was written a bit before 1516..
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mee
Guest
yes you are right utopia is not written in the bible because the promises in the bible are not imaginary they are trueFaithfulservant said:Etymology: Utopia, imaginary and ideal country in Utopia (1516) by Sir Thomas More, from Greek ou not, no + topos place
1 : an imaginary and indefinitely remote place
2 often capitalized : a place of ideal perfection especially in laws, government, and social conditions
3 : an impractical scheme for social improvement
Etymology: Middle English heven, from Old English heofon; akin to Old High German himil heaven
1 : the expanse of space that seems to be over the earth like a dome : [size=-1]FIRMAMENT[/size] -- usually used in plural
2 a often capitalized : the dwelling place of the Deity and the joyful abode of the blessed dead b : a spiritual state of everlasting communion with God
3 capitalized : [size=-1]GOD [/size]1
4 : a place or condition of utmost happiness
Etymology: Middle English paradis, from Old French, from Late Latin paradisus, from Greek paradeisos, literally, enclosed park, of Iranian origin; akin to Avestan pairi-daEza- enclosure; akin to Greek peri around and to Greek teichos wall -- more at [size=-1]PERI-[/size], [size=-1]DOUGH[/size]
1 a : [size=-1]EDEN [/size]2 b : an intermediate place or state where the righteous departed await resurrection and judgment c : [size=-1]HEAVEN[/size]
2 : a place or state of bliss, felicity, or delight
My bible teaches Heaven.. or Paradise according to websters dictionary... My bible does not teach Utopia.
Considering the word Utopia is not even IN the bible... well you know how that goes... My bible was written a bit before 1516..
Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth...matthew 6;10
(Luke 23:43) And he said to him: "Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.
(Isaiah 65:17) "For here I am creating new heavens and a new earth; and the former things will not be called to mind, neither will they come up into the heart.
(Revelation 21:1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more
"Surely just as I have figured, so it must occur; and just as I have counseled, that is what will come true."—ISAIAH 14:24 yes it will come true because all of Gods promises come true. great , resurrection on to a paradise earth and the prospect of living forever....yipeee
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
Thank you for making my point for me see we agree on something else!
The only thing I would change is that the greek do not have punctuation so Luke would say verily I say unto you today you will be with me in paradise. Dont add the comma in where it doesnt belong. I would also add that the many times Jesus Christ said verily I say unto you... Which is many many times... He never ever said verily I say unto you today, ...
see we agree on something else!The only thing I would change is that the greek do not have punctuation so Luke would say verily I say unto you today you will be with me in paradise. Dont add the comma in where it doesnt belong.
I would also add that the many times Jesus Christ said verily I say unto you... Which is many many times... He never ever said verily I say unto you today, ...
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mee
Guest
Faithfulservant said:Thank you for making my point for me
The only thing I would change is that the greek do not have punctuation so Luke would say verily I say unto you today you will be with me in paradise. Dont add the comma in where it doesnt belong.
"Today." Although WH puts a comma in the Gr. text before the word for "today," commas were not used in Gr. uncial mss. In keeping with the context,NWT omit the comma before "today." Syc (fifth cent. C.E.) renders this text: "Amen, I say to thee to-day that with me thou shalt be in the Garden of Eden."—F. C. Burkitt, The Curetonian Version of the Four Gospels, Vol. I, Cambridge, 1904
"In Paradise," אABVgJ11,13,16; Gr., en toi pa·ra·dei´soi; J17,18,22(Heb.), beghan-`E´dhen, "in the garden of Eden." See Ge 2:8, 10, 15, 16, in LXX.