wil said:
Agnideva said:
)Agnideva said:Yes, yogis have also harnessed the power and done some amazing superhuman feats as well. I would agree with you that both the human mind and mystical pranic force are involved. I think the mind needs to realize first that this force exists, and second it needs to understand how to use it. (Wow! so many Star Wars parallels
I am all for people doing more dhyana yoga. But, I think both prayer and yoga/meditation are important and useful because they involve different areas of the mind. Only when we learn to focus and calm our minds, can we begin to meditate. But, higher knowledge or enlightenment can be gained only through direct experience/realization that comes through meditation.
. George Lucas was a big fan of Eastern Philosophu and religion, and it isn't hard to see why. While Abrahamic Religions teach primitive superstitious ways to reach God Eastern religions such as Hinduism have a far more complex but effective but at least proven to be more effective .. We can't assume God is there, or we will always have doubt. We must search for God IMHO .In a word, yes. The term yoga is usually used to mean a path to God in Hinduism. The term yoga is derived from yuj which means to yoke or to unite. So, the term yoga can mean union between body and mind in the physical exercises, or the union between Soul and God in meditation. So, you will hear the term yoga being used in multiple contexts. For example, meditation is termed dhyana yoga and repetitive chanting is termed japa yoga. The inclusive term for all Hindu meditation and yoga practices is raja yoga.Silverbackman said:
Prayer and worship too are a form of meditation because both involve focusing and calming of the mind. In Hinduism, all religious practices have only one goal - to control the mind. The mind is said to be unsteady like the wind, so one learns to concentrate, to focus, to calm the mind through prayers and worship. By prayer here, I don’t mean praying for some material thing or even for one’s deliverance. What I mean is prayer for the sake of praying, for the sake of acknowledging God’s existence. I agree with you that we must each search for God, but to search for God one must truly believe that God does exist, and prayer and worship are a way for your mind to acknowledge God’s existence. Meditation also begins with prayers, and the repetitive chants used in meditation are nothing but prayers. Every time someone chants AUM, it is a prayer. The path of liberation in Hinduism is described as a stepwise process beginning with right living, followed by worshipful practices, leading to meditation, and finally resulting in Self-realization. In that regard, prayer is a type of meditative practice, and meditation is the highest form or worship or prayer.Also, I noticed you mentioned prayer, what can be so effective about prayer? In my opinion it is a primitive unproven way to find God, it works for some but it really doesn't do anything to help you find God (except maybe create an illusion that you are talking to God). I guess prayer can be a form of meditation but I don't see how praying to some God you don't even know exists will help you
Interesting info Silver. I've heard of Bodhidharma and how he is credited with bringing Zen (Ch'an), but I didn't know he introduced martial arts to the Shaolin monks. Are there similarities between the martial arts practiced by the Shaolin monks and the Keralan martial art? And, does the Keralan martial art also involve spiritual practices, meditation, etc.?Silverbackman said:
Agnideva said:
. So if you practice Yoga you basicly practicing all the mind exercises to find God known in Hinduism, right? And if I'm correct Buddhist follow basiclly the same exact meditation practices a Hindu does considering Buddha himself was a Hindu Brahmin who more or less created a Hindu philosophy than a completly different form of meditation.Agnideva said:
). Thirdly Kalaripyttuu is often tought to young children at a young age for the same reasons why Shaolin monks are only accepted kids as new monks. There are many other style differences between the two arts, but both seem pretty similar. Kalaripyttuu is regarded to many as India's best martial art and considering Bodhidharma came most likelly from India he most likelly learned all the martial arts from South India and later teaches it to Shaolin Monks..taijasi said:As a non-traditional Christian (and non-traditional Buddhist, for that matter), might I add my $.02 on prana, and prayer? While I agree with Agnideva, I think there is a type of prayer that makes sense - infinitely more sense, in fact - to practice after we recognize and come to accept that indeed, there is a G-d.
If you think about it, this prayer will be very much as Agnideva describes. It will be selfless, and it will never be misconstrued (within one's own heart & mind) as "asking God for anything." This will have become by definition an absurdity, for one will have recognized that G-d is NOT ->
that dude up in heaven with the long flowing white beard ... sitting around bored on his throne until he is so privileged as to bend to some nice christian person's every whim, beck & call, otherwise relegated to giving wrathful, angry looks at everyone who dares question authority or skip church on Sundays.Were Deity anything like this, we would all be better off agnostic!
But as the case may happen to be ... perhaps the great hierarchy of being is such that indeed there are animate, intelligent, loving and wise agents of G-d known vaguely to some as `angels,' and to others as devas. Perhaps these spirits do, verily, help to raise our selfless and noble aspirations "heavenward" (which means more subtle in vibration) - such that the science of prayer is 100% legitimate and effective, for one who has already accepted these things beyond a shadow of a doubt (or is earnestly working toward this condition of consciousness).
If I know that the world is more or less a globe, rather than the flat plane which our senses falsely suggest ... then before a lengthy sea voyage I will make preparations based on my knowledge of the true nature of the physical world. I will not carefully chart those areas toward the "edges" of the world so that I can avoid accidentally "falling off" and sailing headlong into death. I may, however, make note of any tropical storms, and I will certainly check my radar/sonar equipment - so that by using the accepted and proven science of the day, I might secure for myself the best possible means of having a safe and enjoyable voyage. If my intent is to sail around the globe, I will most likely ignore the pleas and exhortations of the `flatlanders' who shriek on & on about the dangers of plummeting "over the edge," and I will only have so much patience for their vain attempts to convince me of my utter stupidity in attempting my foolish mission.
Exactly thus, by science & experience, many have proven to their own satisfaction (and to that of others) long, long ago, that there is certainly a vast deva hierarchy, just as a human one ... and that a certain class of devas animate this very stuff we call the ether - or the subtle physical world. In French, the term elan vital signifies the same as prana, or chi/qi. Anyone today with a little patience and open-mindedness can step outside on a sunny day (as are conditions today where I live, fortunately), look up at the blue sky, and with a few moments of observation detect the vast, swirling movements of this same prana all throughout the sky. Some may even be sensitive enough to observe that this prana is not "out there" as it appears at first, but is in fact, all around - and interpenetrates every object including the planet itself ... such that were this not the case, we would cease to be "alive" physically speaking. What is observed, if one notices the bright, almost translucent "particles" swirling everywhere - is life itself, chi.
The process whereby these particles - termed vitality globules by C.W. Leadbeater (a clairvoyant Theosophist writing 75+ years ago) - are assimilated and distrubuted throughout the etheric body (physical "aura"), is described in careful detail (w/diagrams) in The Etheric Double by A.E. Powell. Chapters 2 & 4 show this in particular. Many clairvoyants, of varying schools of thought, have verified this research - as has contemporary, materialistic science ... though the ideas are as yet poorly organized & presented.
I find it quite amusing that skeptics will fire off a dozen or so possible explanations - determined if it kills them to slice off the plain & simple truth of the matter with Occam's ever-so-sharpened Razor, as if there were no other tool available with which to investigate an idea. Indeed, seeing is not believing. Witness for yourself. Dead skin cells, artifacts of the eye, etc., etc. I'm sure we can find plenty of plausible explanations for this matter - and yet, almost every sunny day, as the blue sky beckons, I glance up and silently acknowledge what I KNOW. Again, without this bountiful offering (a tangible Blessing for all of His manifested Solar System - direct from Surya-Aditi), there would be no life as we know it.
No "3rd eye" or psychic faculty (such as a developed Ajna centre) is used to observe vitality globules/prana, btw. The physical eye may strain somewhat, because we are attempting to observe faster rates of vibration (and subtler states of matter) than we are accustomed. (One should not strain uncomfortably, especially if this is at all painful ... lest damage result!)
We're only glimpsing the tip of the iceberg, however - and the ether within which this chi energy circulates is itself subdivided into four states of matter, complementing the three states which I learned about in school. Oh, my mistake - I guess our esteemed scientists have added a fourth - plasma. Hmmm ....
For another glimpse, afforded through the paintings of Alex Grey, visit: http://www.sacredmirrors.org/mirrors_view.html
The entire etheric body can be viewed here - including the "double," the aura, and the chakra system - with lesser nadis (energy pathways, plus lesser chakras). This is very different than the `astral body' or aura - although this, too, is animated by astral chi. The best illustration of the astral body I've ever seen - is here. Difference? Etheric/prana is strictly physical - the "health aura," or vital soul (Hebrew nephesh) vs. the astral body/aura or vehicle of emotions (Sanskrit kama-rupa).
To draw the mind, or mental body, would be to try and illustrate 5 dimensions (lovely plumage ... I mean, beautiful geometry) in 2D - and that seems a bit futile, no? But again, every vehicle is partially animated or ensouled by the vitality or chi of its own particular world - according to esoteric teachings, which the Buddhist & Hindu most closely approximate. We might say that it is the collective ensoulment of all forms in the universe (solar system) with prana, the very life essence of its informing deity (Surya-Aditi in some traditions) - on every plane or in every world of manifestation - that constitutes, by definition, a physical incarnation of G-d! Of course, this says nothing for the higher principles of deity (emotions & mind - or their perfected, Divine equivalent ... plus spiritual qualities/aspects, to wit Will, Wisdom & Intelligence). As above, so below.
Enough meandering. Namaskar,
taijasi
. I will explain more on my beliefs later, such as my belief that scientists and historians are or as much religious preists as Christian pastors (I think you know where I am going with that ).taijasi said:
This type of selfless prayer is really not even possible until you get to that stage
. Even though we may strive to be selfless in our prayers, at times of trouble, we can’t help but ask God for help. I’ve never been able to believe in a God who “is watching us from a distance.” I personally subscribe to the idea of a transcendent-imminent God who is separate yet inseparable from creation. Siva Yogaswami, a great sage from Sri Lanka, used to teach his followers this point by saying, “of all the great things God can do, there is one thing He cannot do: He cannot separate Himself from you.”Were Deity anything like this, we would all be better off agnostic!
You’ve hit the nail right on the head as far as traditional Hinduism is concerned. There is a whole hierarchy of beings inhabiting different worlds within creation. Some are angelic beings called Devas, and there are archangelic beings called Mahadevas. Hindu worship and prayer are directed toward not only God, but also the Mahadevas like Ganesha, Kartikeya and Hanuman - this is permitted and encouraged. The purpose of the Mahadevas is to help, inspire, and guide the worshipper not only into spiritual progress, but also toward the resolution of karmic debts. It is also the Mahadevas who help the meditator to reach deeper states of consciousness, and eventually to Self-realization. In other words, one does not travel alone on the spiritual path, but is guided along the way.
Basically yes, but I don’t mean the physical exercises known as yogaasana ... these are done to stabilize the mind and body to enable meditation and contemplation. Any practice that is meant to lead to a union between the soul and God can be termed Yoga. So there are four primary yoga paths: bhakti yoga - yoga of devotion, karma yoga - yoga of right actions, jnana yoga - yoga of knowledge, raja yoga - yoga of contemplation/meditation. The purpose of all four is ultimately the same.Silverbackman said:I've always wondered that, because I used to read bout other forms of practice such as tantras and vedenta
You will find this kind of prayer in all religions. I don’t really see a problem in this type of prayer. I think humans need this kind of prayer because we need to acknowledge that there is force greater us who is omnipotent. It is a stage of development along the path of the spiritual evolution. Granted that prayers may or may not come true, and when they do, you don’t really know if God made them come true or not. Although this type of prayer is selfish, if nothing else it strengthens people’s faith in the existence of God. Since the existence of God cannot be proven by material means, one has to first cultivate a firm belief that God does exist. Once one realizes the Truth, all the other means of communion with God are seen as valid - this is what the masters have said. Those who have come to the realization see the true meaning of prayer and worship and, therefore, do not condemn rituals or prayers, but encourage them. An important point to consider is that all people may not be ready for meditation quite yet. So they develop through prayers and ritual worship. Once one gains Self-realization, then only do the prayers and ritual worship become selfless actions, and become much more meaningful to that person, as Taijasi pointed out. This is why realized yogis do not condemn rituals and prayers, but practice it themselves.
If this is true, then the reason is karma. If you believe in karma, then you cannot really believe God giveth, God taketh away. So, you can pray all you want, but if your prayers don’t come true, there’s no point in blaming God. God does not absolve karma, and neither do pilgrimages, dips in a holy rivers, rituals, prayers, etc. All these practices only help a person get spiritually closer to God. They also inspire the person to lead a better life and resolve her/his karmas.
Agnideva said:Basically yes, but I don’t mean the physical exercises known as yogaasana ... these are done to stabilize the mind and body to enable meditation and contemplation. Any practice that is meant to lead to a union between the soul and God can be termed Yoga. So there are four primary yoga paths: bhakti yoga - yoga of devotion, karma yoga - yoga of right actions, jnana yoga - yoga of knowledge, raja yoga - yoga of contemplation/meditation. The purpose of all four is ultimately the same.
You will find this kind of prayer in all religions. I don’t really see a problem in this type of prayer. I think humans need this kind of prayer because we need to acknowledge that there is force greater us who is omnipotent. It is a stage of development along the path of the spiritual evolution. Granted that prayers may or may not come true, and when they do, you don’t really know if God made them come true or not. Although this type of prayer is selfish, if nothing else it strengthens people’s faith in the existence of God. Since the existence of God cannot be proven by material means, one has to first cultivate a firm belief that God does exist. Once one realizes the Truth, all the other means of communion with God are seen as valid - this is what the masters have said. Those who have come to the realization see the true meaning of prayer and worship and, therefore, do not condemn rituals or prayers, but encourage them. An important point to consider is that all people may not be ready for meditation quite yet. So they develop through prayers and ritual worship. Once one gains Self-realization, then only do the prayers and ritual worship become selfless actions, and become much more meaningful to that person, as Taijasi pointed out. This is why realized yogis do not condemn rituals and prayers, but practice it themselves.
If this is true, then the reason is karma. If you believe in karma, then you cannot really believe God giveth, God taketh away. So, you can pray all you want, but if your prayers don’t come true, there’s no point in blaming God. God does not absolve karma, and neither do pilgrimages, dips in a holy rivers, rituals, prayers, etc. All these practices only help a person get spiritually closer to God. They also inspire the person to lead a better life and resolve her/his karmas.
.Silverbackman said:Talking to God is okay but like worshipping and idol it won't help you find God. God can only be found by gaining knowledge, both by studying science and history as well as searching for God in meditation and yoga
I believe that prayer, ritual image worship, meditation, chanting, and reading from holy books all go hand in hand. One does not pick one of them and reject the others. They are all part and parcel of the continuing development of oneself into a more spiritual person. If one can’t believe that prayer and worship have merit and will lead to God, then how can one possibly believe that meditation will? Prayer and worship done correctly, with love at heart, can also lead you to the same goal, this is the message of the saints, as I am Free indicated. All paths lead to the same goal, the goal of realization.Silverbackman said:Prayer is okay but it cannot be given nearly the importance of yoga and meditation. We all know prayer does not help you search for God. Talking to God is okay but like worshipping and idol it won't help you find God. God can only be found by gaining knowledge, both by studying science and history as well as searching for God in meditation and yoga
Silverbackman said:
Devout Hindus and Buddhists also perform prayers and worship ceremonies called puja. To me prayer is an expression of devotion, and the puja is an extension of that devotion, and a means to honor the Divine and the divinely ones. I see it like this - if you want to come to the point of realization or enlightenment, you need to be devoted to the cause and to your respective path. When you're devoted, prayers and pujas are not obstacles any more, but come naturally. The path of devotion (bhakti yoga) that we've been talking about is not just sitting and praying for salvation, but vying for direct experience through intense and ecstatic devotion. One thing that separates Eastern religions from Western ones, IMHO, is that the former place a lot of emphasis on the experiencial dimension, and do not ask you to rely purely on faith.Silverbackman said:
Can you explain what you mean by this?
Silverbackman said: