What Is Truth?The Great Historical Question Answered.

bhakthi

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“I will tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.” This way, people take oath in a court of law in the united states.People in other countries hold religious texts in their hands and swear that they will tell only the truth.

But there came a time when, the question itself as to WHAT IS TRUTH ?came up during the trial. This was in the court. where Jesus of Nazareth was tried. “For this reason I was born, and came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth, hears my voice. ”John; 18:37.When the Roman judge Pilate heard,these words of Jesus, he asked him back. ”What is truth? ”During his life time Jesus taught about the truth. that sets mankind free,the truth that leads them to eternal life. Once, He told the Jews, who believed in him “ If you continue in my word you are truly my deciples .and you will know the truth and the truth will make you free.”John;8:31,32. then Jesus said; ”I am the way ,the truth and the life. No one comes to the father ,but by me.John;14:6. Jesus is the only person, ever said that “I am the truth.”Jesus came down to the earth, with a testimony from heaven .He came to witness to the Truth. He came with a testimony from God. He spoke the truths of God, to the world. And the Bible says “he who receives his testimony sets his seal to this, that God is true.”John;3:33. The Bible makes it clear that, whoever is on the side of truth listens to Jesus because He, is the truth, and they certify that God is truthful. Jesus is the place where all the truth seekers will ultimately reach Apart from Jesus, no divine truth exists. The God in the Bible is a True God, and is the God of Truth. And there is no other.
(*note: edited to remove link)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
bhakthi said:
“I will tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.” This way, people take oath in a court of law in the united states.People in other countries hold religious texts in their hands and swear that they will tell only the truth.

But there came a time when, the question itself as to WHAT IS TRUTH ?came up during the trial. This was in the court. where Jesus of Nazareth was tried. “For this reason I was born, and came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth, hears my voice. ”John; 18:37.When the Roman judge Pilate heard,these words of Jesus, he asked him back. ”What is truth? ”During his life time Jesus taught about the truth. that sets mankind free,the truth that leads them to eternal life. Once, He told the Jews, who believed in him “ If you continue in my word you are truly my deciples .and you will know the truth and the truth will make you free.”John;8:31,32. then Jesus said; ”I am the way ,the truth and the life. No one comes to the father ,but by me.John;14:6. Jesus is the only person, ever said that “I am the truth.”Jesus came down to the earth, with a testimony from heaven .He came to witness to the Truth. He came with a testimony from God. He spoke the truths of God, to the world. And the Bible says “he who receives his testimony sets his seal to this, that God is true.”John;3:33. The Bible makes it clear that, whoever is on the side of truth listens to Jesus because He, is the truth, and they certify that God is truthful. Jesus is the place where all the truth seekers will ultimately reach Apart from Jesus, no divine truth exists. The God in the Bible is a True God, and is the God of Truth. And there is no other.
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Jesus answered: "My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source." Therefore Pilate said to him: "Well, then, are you a king?" Jesus answered: "You yourself are saying that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone that is on the side of the truth listens to my voice." Pilate said to him: "What is truth?"​

And after saying this, he went out again to the Jews and said to them: "I find no fault in him............. John 18; 36-38................ no wonder jesus said his kingdom was no part of this world , thats because it was a heavenly kingdom and it was set up at a future time in 1914 C,E. it was not a kingdom that was to be set up on the earth , it was a heavenly kingdom goverment ....daniel 2;44

And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite..... DANIEL 2;44 ............. Yes and guess who the king is , non other than Jesus christ.:)

 
Greetings bhakthi,

Your opening post strikes me as more or less a simple promotion of Christianity not very inviting to discussion. However, since it has generated a reply we'll give it a try in Christianity, where hopefully it will move into discussion rather than proselytization. However, please note that the COC does not allow for using CR as a platform for the promotion of any religion.

best,
lunamoth
 
Kindest Regards, bhakthi, and welcome to CR!

Please keep in mind that CR is a place for engaging in conversation, not for converting people. I would like to direct you to the Code of Conduct:
http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/code-of-conduct.php

If you spend any time here you will see that there are people here who represent many faiths and walks of life. And all are welcome, to share opinions and politely disagree.

We do not allow proselyzing however. Your post has been modified by being moved to the forum specific to Christianity as what you seemed to have to say was very Christian in orientation. I took the liberty of removing your link for the time being as you are too new here, and this place does not serve as a redirect clearinghouse.

I hope you will enjoy your stay by engaging in conversation with others here, some who may agree with you, and some who may not. Pretty much all we ask is that you be polite and respectful. The Code of Conduct will spell it out for you quite clearly.

Once again, welcome! Kick off your shoes, and enjoy! :)
 
bhakthi said:
“I will tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.” This way, people take oath in a court of law in the united states.People in other countries hold religious texts in their hands and swear that they will tell only the truth.

But there came a time when, the question itself as to WHAT IS TRUTH ?came up during the trial. This was in the court. where Jesus of Nazareth was tried. “For this reason I was born, and came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth, hears my voice. ”John; 18:37.When the Roman judge Pilate heard,these words of Jesus, he asked him back. ”What is truth? ”During his life time Jesus taught about the truth. that sets mankind free,the truth that leads them to eternal life. Once, He told the Jews, who believed in him “ If you continue in my word you are truly my deciples .and you will know the truth and the truth will make you free.”John;8:31,32. then Jesus said; ”I am the way ,the truth and the life. No one comes to the father ,but by me.John;14:6. Jesus is the only person, ever said that “I am the truth.”Jesus came down to the earth, with a testimony from heaven .He came to witness to the Truth. He came with a testimony from God. He spoke the truths of God, to the world. And the Bible says “he who receives his testimony sets his seal to this, that God is true.”John;3:33. The Bible makes it clear that, whoever is on the side of truth listens to Jesus because He, is the truth, and they certify that God is truthful. Jesus is the place where all the truth seekers will ultimately reach Apart from Jesus, no divine truth exists. The God in the Bible is a True God, and is the God of Truth. And there is no other.
(*note: edited to remove link)

very good topic of conversation. i dont think it is necessary to be a wanabe mod because that is not a likeable trait of fellow posters, instead of taking offensive to this truth you have posted, i will respond to it, which i think is your intention.

i find it interesting that many philosophers have wrestled with what is truth, and to hear jesus speak the truth and say what the truth is, puts everything in perspective. truth, ultimately, is the word of god.
 
bhakthi said:
“I will tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.” This way, people take oath in a court of law in the united states.People in other countries hold religious texts in their hands and swear that they will tell only the truth.

But there came a time when, the question itself as to WHAT IS TRUTH ?came up during the trial. This was in the court. where Jesus of Nazareth was tried. “For this reason I was born, and came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth, hears my voice. ”John; 18:37.When the Roman judge Pilate heard,these words of Jesus, he asked him back. ”What is truth? ”During his life time Jesus taught about the truth. that sets mankind free,the truth that leads them to eternal life. Once, He told the Jews, who believed in him “ If you continue in my word you are truly my deciples .and you will know the truth and the truth will make you free.”John;8:31,32. then Jesus said; ”I am the way ,the truth and the life. No one comes to the father ,but by me.John;14:6. Jesus is the only person, ever said that “I am the truth.”Jesus came down to the earth, with a testimony from heaven .He came to witness to the Truth. He came with a testimony from God. He spoke the truths of God, to the world. And the Bible says “he who receives his testimony sets his seal to this, that God is true.”John;3:33. The Bible makes it clear that, whoever is on the side of truth listens to Jesus because He, is the truth, and they certify that God is truthful. Jesus is the place where all the truth seekers will ultimately reach Apart from Jesus, no divine truth exists. The God in the Bible is a True God, and is the God of Truth. And there is no other.
(*note: edited to remove link)

Welcome to CR Bhakthi. ;)

Truth is a simple concept, though the older we get and the more we learn, the more layers of the onion cover over the original concept of simple truth. Truth often becomes confused (or difused) in beliefs. And beliefs change from day to day, year to year, life time to life time, generation to generation.

I think Jesus re-issued us the key to the simple truth way before He had to show us how to use it on the cross. We simply refused to listen. (That is called denial.)

He said, "Love God", and "Love neighbor as self". In that order, yet combined, we have the ultimate truth. Though it is simple in concept, it is so complex to act upon. Why? Because we love self more than our neighbor, and more than God.

Upon the heart of every man is written the truth of life. Yet we ignore it, for our own reasons (that is selfcentered).

We think we know everything (that is conceipt and arrogance). We think we are superior (that is called contempt and self righteousness). And we carry a chip on our shoulders and dare anyone to try and knock it off (that is called rage).

There is so much more to the complexities of Man, but you get the picture. We bury the truth in ourselves, because we only think of ourselves, first.

No wonder the Truth of Life can not be seen from within us...we keep adding layers of opaque skin over it, in the form of justifications for what? keeping from being hurt by others?

I submit that the truth is there, but the first time we try to cover it (revenge for a wrong comes to mind as a child), that skin is burned and scarred into darkness from the heat and brightness of the truth. Then the next pain produces a skin to cover the first one, resulting in the same, then the next hurt, etc...

And each time we add a skin to cover the last hurt, the light of truth grows dimmer and colder...and the layers get harder and thicker...

Peeling off these layers to get back to the truth is hardest of all, because it hurts to pull scabs from the wounds.

Nevermind that the truth is busy healing the first skin, because we keep piling on more skins to cover our wounds...90% of which we cause ourselves!

my thoughts

v/r

Q
 
I know this is the Christianity forum, but it seems that the assumption here is that only Truth (capital "T") as defined by Christianity/Scripture/Jesus matters.

I think it does matter, but it's not the only opinion. I'm not saying this to "stir things up." Many Christians find it irritating at least, and some quite a bit more than irritating, to be told that they may not have a corner on Truth.

Here's my point. If we want to know Truth, then shouldn't we consult with all who seek it?

Surely Christianity has much to teach us about this. Can this great religion learn from others? Again, this isn't meant to stir things up. I'm not suggesting a synthesization of religions here, just a dialog between them that informs and enlightens all.

Your thoughts on my thoughts will be most welcome.

peace,

press
 
did Jesus bear witness to truth in general? No. He had specific truth in mind. He commissioned his followers to declare such truth, for he told them: "Make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you." (Matthew 28:19, 20) Before the end of this system of things, Jesus’ genuine followers would declare "the truth of the good news" earth wide. This would be done in fulfillment of Jesus’ words: "This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come." (Matthew 24:14)

Since the truth centered on Jesus Christ, he could say: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6)

 
i find it interesting that many philosophers have wrestled with what is truth, and to hear jesus speak the truth and say what the truth is, puts everything in perspective. truth, ultimately, is the word of god.
To hear Jesus speak? How interesting that would be. We don't even have direct quotes. We do have books that were written decades after he was crucified.

Think of anything that happened in your life 20-40 years ago, and then write an accurate account of it, and then let it the originals dissapear and take the copies from a few hundred years later, translate them, reinterpret them...and call them truth.

Don't get me wrong, I love the books and the texts, yet heresay is inadmissable in many courts...but here in this text the basis for many wars and arguments.

And of course Press, we must explore the world of thought, to live our lives with blinders on, to conjure up our version of truth in a vacuum...I do hope the end is near for those days...

namaste,
 
wil said:
To hear Jesus speak? How interesting that would be. We don't even have direct quotes. We do have books that were written decades after he was crucified.



namaste,

that is just your opinion & is extreme. you do not know they were not direct quotes. i think you have personal issues with the scriptures to make statements like that.
 
presser_kun said:
I know this is the Christianity forum, but it seems that the assumption here is that only Truth (capital "T") as defined by Christianity/Scripture/Jesus matters.

I think it does matter, but it's not the only opinion. I'm not saying this to "stir things up." Many Christians find it irritating at least, and some quite a bit more than irritating, to be told that they may not have a corner on Truth.

Here's my point. If we want to know Truth, then shouldn't we consult with all who seek it?

Surely Christianity has much to teach us about this. Can this great religion learn from others? Again, this isn't meant to stir things up. I'm not suggesting a synthesization of religions here, just a dialog between them that informs and enlightens all.

Your thoughts on my thoughts will be most welcome.

peace,

press

what truth would you like to share, presser_kun?:)
 
Bandit said:
Originally Posted by wil..To hear Jesus speak? How interesting that would be. We don't even have direct quotes. We do have books that were written decades after he was crucified.

that is just your opinion & is extreme. you do not know they were not direct quotes. i think you have personal issues with the scriptures to make statements like that.
Personal issues? I make the mistake of reading the biblical scholars. Mathew, Mark, Luke and John weren't written by Mathew, Mark, Luke and John....there is Q which is deemed to be Thomas...and then the book of John isn't like any other of John's writings. There is no record of any writings of these books earlier than decades after... nor any originals...just copies from centuries later.

I love the gospels, I'm striving to live by the teachings...doesn't mean I have to bury my head in the sand to the facts as they come up. I'm sorry I pushed your buttons, but they aren't my buttons.

namaste,
 
Bandit said:
that is just your opinion & is extreme. you do not know they were not direct quotes. i think you have personal issues with the scriptures to make statements like that.

Hi, Bandit. I've seen your posts around, and now I'm glad to dialog directly with you.

First, I agree with you. We cannot know that the statements the New Testament attributes to Jesus are not direct quotes.

But neither can we know that they are.

The point wil is making, I think (sorry, wil, if I'm putting words into your mouth) is that we have no proof that the words of Jesus as reported by the N.T. are direct quotes.

One may have faith that they are, of course. But to say that wil's view is extreme isn't correct. Many mainline theologians and bible scholars hold wil's view.

Are you saying that any view that differs from yours is extreme? That seems rather extreme in and of itself to me.

Sound off on these thoughts, Bandit. Let me know what you think is wrong with them. I'm sure I'll learn from what you have to say.

peace,

press
 
wil said:
Personal issues? I make the mistake of reading the biblical scholars. Mathew, Mark, Luke and John weren't written by Mathew, Mark, Luke and John....there is Q which is deemed to be Thomas...and then the book of John isn't like any other of John's writings. There is no record of any writings of these books earlier than decades after... nor any originals...just copies from centuries later.

I love the gospels, I'm striving to live by the teachings...doesn't mean I have to bury my head in the sand to the facts as they come up. I'm sorry I pushed your buttons, but they aren't my buttons.

namaste,

good for you then. that still is not proof that the written quotes are not original.
you make it sound like they had to have computers & zerox mahines 2000 years ago to be valid quotes.
 
Bandit said:
what truth would you like to share, presser_kun?:)

Wow. You've really made me think, Bandit.

There are many truths. Some are inconsequential, as in "I just ate an olive." Some are more significant, as in "Mary wants to find a place to live." Some matter a great deal, and some are ultimate.

I don't give examples of these last two categories because it seems to me that the more important a truth is to us humans, the more likely we are to question flat statements of fact.

Nobody wants to dispute "I just ate an olive" because it's a truth that really doesn't matter. Perhaps a situation could be constructed in which the truth of such a statement mattered a great deal, but you see my point, I hope.

But say, "This is the only way to find happiness (or God)," and everybody will have an opinion.

Why?

Because it matters a great deal. Some would say that nothing matters more.

So we argue. Some say that their way is the only way. Others go to war over differing beliefs about the ultimate truths.

Aliens from a distant planet might think many things about us humans, but one thing I think they'll realize is that we care deeply about the truth. Every group, culture, and civilization has members of the tribe that dedicate themselves to discovering Truth (I'm using capital "T" now to represent the ultimate things we wonder about).

So now. Your original question to me was,

Bandit said:
what truth would you like to share, presser_kun?:)

I'm uncertain about what that might be.

I'm searching. I care deeply about what's wrong and right, but the longer I live, the less I know for certain.

Over the past three years I've been through a crisis of faith. I grew up and lived for years as a Christian fundamentalist. I now know that God speaks to others, so I'm attempting to learn from others about God.

Isn't it marvelous that God is so much bigger than any one group's interpretation of him?

My truth, I guess, is this: If there is a God (I think there is) and if God is personal (I'm not entirely convinced of this) then I think he wants us to treat each other with respect.

Simple, no? But aren't the great truths always simple?

Hope this rambling makes sense.

peace,

press
 
Bandit said:
good for you then. that still is not proof that the written quotes are not original.
you make it sound like they had to have computers & zerox mahines 2000 years ago to be valid quotes.

Well, we also argue over the works of Shakespeare, classical works of antiquity, and even the meaning of the U.S. constitution (witness the furor over U.S. Supreme Court nominee Samuel Alito). Modern technology isn't what is needed to prove a quote is direct.

A reliable source is.

Please don't blow up at this. I'm not saying the Christian scriptures aren't reliable. Here's what I mean:

I was taught as a boy that the Bible is the word of God.

In college, I found out that it was written by men.

Later I learned that wise people in the nineteenth century, people who studied the scriptures all their life, began to examine the sources of the scriptures we have.

They found out that the original texts of the New Testament are no longer extant. The copies we have are decades, sometimes centuries removed from the events they report.

Further, they discovered that the Christian scriptures were not written at the time the events transpired. Followers of Jesus who walked with him in the flesh began to die, and others asked them to write down their memories so that they could be preserved.

This is not sacrilige, Bandit. Rather, I think it is a wonderful thing to know that, in spite of these all-too-human obstacles and hinderances, God's truth in Jesus shines through to us today.

Is it wrong to think this way?

peace,

press
 
presser_kun said:
Hi, Bandit. I've seen your posts around, and now I'm glad to dialog directly with you.

First, I agree with you. We cannot know that the statements the New Testament attributes to Jesus are not direct quotes.

But neither can we know that they are.

The point wil is making, I think (sorry, wil, if I'm putting words into your mouth) is that we have no proof that the words of Jesus as reported by the N.T. are direct quotes.

One may have faith that they are, of course. But to say that wil's view is extreme isn't correct. Many mainline theologians and bible scholars hold wil's view.

Are you saying that any view that differs from yours is extreme? That seems rather extreme in and of itself to me.

Sound off on these thoughts, Bandit. Let me know what you think is wrong with them. I'm sure I'll learn from what you have to say.

peace,

press

i dont see anything wrong with them & i do not detect a agenda to discredit the scriptures or one to force the scriptures on others, as certain groups do.

those are beliefs & choices you have to make for yourself on what is true & if the bible is true.

i dont see 'many' mainline, what i see are a few & they are also known as 'modern scholars' mystics, gnostics & the like. i dont hear many Christians saying the bible is not true.

i believe the bible is true & holds truth. Faith is real and it can be tested. The scriptures can also be tested. Christians are one of the few who learn to walk by faith & walk in the spirit & stand on the scriptures as a foundation & Godly principals for all aspects of life.
(i am sure you already know this, but maybe do not understand how someone can do that. not sure)

What i see is, people create dogma & translations that contradict & some use the scriptures for power, but the bible itself does not do that. i see it is all in the way we choose to view it & put it together for ourselves. i can't change what copiests & editors did or what traditional doctrines say. When i look at the volume of the book I come up with about .0000000001% error due to translation & copying or an attempt to persuade some into a particular doctrine.
while others tend to view the whole thing as error, finding fault.
the nature of and existance of Q itself is hypothetical IMO.

so, we can spend all our time only seeing it from a historic, scholarly, or fairy tale view, OR search for what God wants us to know. I think what he wants us to know is that the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus is true & that the purpose of Jesus was to reveal, manifest & show the love of God in the flesh so that we would have someone to believe & show us how to get to know God.

as far as direct quotes from Jesus, i believe they are. i view the disciples as students of Jesus getting a college degree (in a sense & for that time period) and you do not spend three & a half years with a professor giving lectures & not come away with remembering what he was saying & trying to teach. You have to also remember, these guys were FILLED with Holy Ghost & with power after the ascension, & when we get that far with God, we start to see things a bit different, learning how to walk by faith.:)

because i dont believe something is true, i dont spend my life trying to convince others that what they believe to be true, is not true. there are certain individuals who have this as a primary objective.
IOW- trying to convince someone to eat or not to eat spinach because they like or dont like spinach, is an agenda.

i hope that is fair & what do you think about that?
 
presser_kun said:
Wow. You've really made me think, Bandit.

There are many truths. Some are inconsequential, as in "I just ate an olive." Some are more significant, as in "Mary wants to find a place to live." Some matter a great deal, and some are ultimate.

I don't give examples of these last two categories because it seems to me that the more important a truth is to us humans, the more likely we are to question flat statements of fact.

Nobody wants to dispute "I just ate an olive" because it's a truth that really doesn't matter. Perhaps a situation could be constructed in which the truth of such a statement mattered a great deal, but you see my point, I hope.

But say, "This is the only way to find happiness (or God)," and everybody will have an opinion.

Why?

Because it matters a great deal. Some would say that nothing matters more.

So we argue. Some say that their way is the only way. Others go to war over differing beliefs about the ultimate truths.

Aliens from a distant planet might think many things about us humans, but one thing I think they'll realize is that we care deeply about the truth. Every group, culture, and civilization has members of the tribe that dedicate themselves to discovering Truth (I'm using capital "T" now to represent the ultimate things we wonder about).

So now. Your original question to me was,



I'm uncertain about what that might be.

I'm searching. I care deeply about what's wrong and right, but the longer I live, the less I know for certain.

Over the past three years I've been through a crisis of faith. I grew up and lived for years as a Christian fundamentalist. I now know that God speaks to others, so I'm attempting to learn from others about God.

Isn't it marvelous that God is so much bigger than any one group's interpretation of him?

My truth, I guess, is this: If there is a God (I think there is) and if God is personal (I'm not entirely convinced of this) then I think he wants us to treat each other with respect.

Simple, no? But aren't the great truths always simple?

Hope this rambling makes sense.

peace,

press

i am not sure what to say about all of that, except for that we are pretty much in agreement. dont think you are the only one who believes there are more questions than answers & that is very wise.:)
i have never waivered in my faith for Jesus & the Bible, but somehow i can relate & feel compassion for those who do.

i think you may be ahead of me on some of these things.
i dont have all the answers either presser_kun, but i am pretty impressed with your genuine spirit & the love that you display. that says a lot to me.

yes i agree that God is so much bigger than we realize or can totally comprehend. when i try to picture God on my level (which i believe He does transcend this way in spirit, because of the man Jesus making intercession) i picture one of his eyeballs being as big as the milky way. i find all this love & grace & mercy & how someone who is that big, who has a finger the size of the big dipper, could care about a speck like me & be so gentle at the same time, is pretty amazing.

I believe Jesus is the only way & i just think others do not realize it, but that does not mean Jesus is not reaching out to everyone, because i believe God will transcend in many different ways, through Jesus.
people just dont understand how that can be true or possible.
if someone else wants to believe i am wrong, well, that is totally their choice, but that does not make what i just said not true.

can you prove to someone that it is true, you just ate an olive? or would not the person have to be there & SEE you eat it. some people are that way & will dispute anything.

i think God wants us to treat others with respect also! & i think that is a very deep but simple truth.

What else do you think is Truth?:)
 
presser_kun said:
Well, we also argue over the works of Shakespeare, classical works of antiquity, and even the meaning of the U.S. constitution (witness the furor over U.S. Supreme Court nominee Samuel Alito). Modern technology isn't what is needed to prove a quote is direct.

A reliable source is.

Please don't blow up at this. I'm not saying the Christian scriptures aren't reliable. Here's what I mean:

I was taught as a boy that the Bible is the word of God.

In college, I found out that it was written by men.

Later I learned that wise people in the nineteenth century, people who studied the scriptures all their life, began to examine the sources of the scriptures we have.

They found out that the original texts of the New Testament are no longer extant. The copies we have are decades, sometimes centuries removed from the events they report.

Further, they discovered that the Christian scriptures were not written at the time the events transpired. Followers of Jesus who walked with him in the flesh began to die, and others asked them to write down their memories so that they could be preserved.

This is not sacrilige, Bandit. Rather, I think it is a wonderful thing to know that, in spite of these all-too-human obstacles and hinderances, God's truth in Jesus shines through to us today.

Is it wrong to think this way?

peace,

press

i dont think it wrong to think that way at all. i am very aware of the history of the bible & how it got to us. i still think it all happened the way it did with a purpose higher than us & God wanted it to come to us this way. i dont know why & maybe never will know why.

i take a more positive approach because i want to know what the scriptures are trying to say to me in spirit as well as how i should be in the flesh to make me a better person. i dont just sit there & pick pick pick it apart because i have nothing better to do.
what i mean is, i have a very thankful heart for it because i would feel very lost without it.

i would also consider that if it had been left in the hands of some others, we would have never known anything about Jesus, the apostles or prophets. i would not say extant, because i consider the era things transpired & people question history books too.
i would not say that about Pauls letters either.

none of it was written when things transpired but if Jesus went back to God after calvary, it was not that long afterward people began writing about it. nothing was well recorded in those times because that is just how the media was. no one knew of a birth certificate or SS #. good grief, it used to take two weeks just to get a letter to someone & it was not that long ago.

so, i think you are on track with things & i hope i am being a good listener today because you sure are talking my ear off & making me think:) but it is cool, because something happened that brought me back home today & maybe that was so that we could take a few minutes out of life & try to relate.
 
as far as direct quotes from Jesus, i believe they are. i view the disciples as students of Jesus getting a college degree (in a sense & for that time period) and you do not spend three & a half years with a professor giving lectures & not come away with remembering what he was saying & trying to teach.You have to also remember, these guys were FILLED with Holy Ghost & with power after the ascension, & when we get that far with God, we start to see things a bit different, learning how to walk by faith
You know that really makes me think. Yes it lends some validity for remembering it and having someone transcribe it for you 20-40 years after it occurred.... But more than that I would think the accounts would be soooo much longer. I look at the volumes that have been put out by those without that connection to Jesus and the events, and the fact that they must have been story tellers (telling the story) for all that time, you'd think there would be so much more to say. (not at all saying what was said wasn't enough)
when i try to picture God ... i picture one of his eyeballs being as big as the milky way....how someone who is that big, who has a finger the size of the big dipper....What else do you think is Truth?
speaking of speaking volumes
The point wil is making, I think (sorry, wil, if I'm putting words into your mouth) is that we have no proof that the words of Jesus as reported by the N.T. are direct quotes.
You've done quite well rewording my thought to make it understandable. As you discussed about growing up with the finger of God having written the bible...and then gone through some independent study learning more... it reminds me of the rude awakening my preacher had hearing from a Jesuit Priest in a masters level theology class, "You don't really think the garden of eden happenned do you? You don't realize Genesis is allegory?" He said many in the class needed smelling salts...but it was just the lesson they needed in order to finish the rest of the courses...

Tis a shame they don't teach 'truth' in Sunday school, or even church, thinking the masses aren't ready for it...only those that are serious students are prepared to handle it. I for one think the world would be better if all the cards were laid face up on the table instead of so close to the vest...I think christianity has lost more people due to not giving us the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth....

Let google copy the books from the vatican library!

namaste,
 
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