Rememberance of Israel a Noose?

[InLove]

Hi Y'all--Peace to all here--

I have a question for my Christian brothers and sisters. It may seem silly to some, but it is not silly to me. It is something I have wondered about for some time.

So here it is: If I believe that Christ has already appeared here on earth, and gone through with the Holy Sacrifice prophesied in the Word of God (and I do), is it wrong for me to also embrace one or more aspects of Jewish ritual--especially whatever pertains to the remembrance of God's leadership, protection, and mercy regarding the Hebrew people and anyone who believes?

For clarity, let me say that I know I am not commanded to observe this, but what if I choose to do so? My folks say that I will be putting "a noose around my neck". I say that this is not so, as long as I know the difference between remembrance and obligation.

For example, say I want to, during Passover, remember Israel in some small way--perhaps on my table will be some carefully prepared dish for a specific purpose. Of course, I am not going to be serving pork on that same table (even though I believe it is okay with God), but then I am uneducated in all of that stuff--guess you might say that everything I do is not Kosher??? Because whatever is on my table will be lifted up for blessing in the name of Jesus. It is a complicated question--I suppose....

The purpose of that carefully prepared dish (say some eggs dyed red)--I won't go into all of the symbolism there, but I say for sure that there is no denial of the Messiah there--God would not order anything that denies His Son--and I do not even know if "red eggs" were part of the orders.

Anyway, even though this may not make much sense to some, I was just wondering if anyone out there, particularly Christians, could answer me on this. It may not be the most burning question out there, but still, I wonder....

If my question is not clear, let me know. I will do my best to restate it in a way that makes more sense. Any takers???

InPeace,
InLove

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, InLove!

Allow me to begin by welcoming you back! You have been missed!

To your questions; I have long had similar thoughts. Sadly, when speaking with Jewish friends I do not get to learn much. I am certain they have their reasons, that they may even be suspicious, I don't know. I remember the first time I made the mistake of mentioning the term "Messianic Jew" to bananabrain, because in my mind that is the term that most closely described what I meant, what I intended. BB pretty much went ballistic and has basically ignored me on the subject since. Seems there is a specific group by that name that attempt to convert Jews, of which I was not aware. I highly recommend not using that term if you wish to learn anything from BB. I had not thought to ask Dauer, I guess because the matter was so ill received in the first place.

I disagree with your folks. When I realized that Jesus was a Jew (My boss is a Jewish carpenter) and all that entailed, and started looking into historical and cultural context, I saw a little bit different picture emerge than what I was familiar with in a traditional church. I decided that I wanted to conduct myself more in accord with what I understood to have been initially taught by Jesus himself, which among other things would include the keeping of the Jewish Passover.

The Jews keep a really neat little book, some of them handed down for generations in the family, that describes how to conduct the Passover. I forget what it is called offhand, my Hebrew never was that great. I recall that in some cultural expressions of Passover a boiled egg is used, but off the top of my head I don't recall why. If you learn which are the bitter herbs, beyond perhaps horseradish and coriander, I would be obliged if you would share with me. Every time, without exception, that I ever asked I was stonewalled. I always thought that curious.

I have long felt kinship with the Jews. Of course, I am the red-headed step-child. I am the adopted one. And it seems some are very quick and certain to insure I remain acutely aware of that very fact.

Good luck, and best of wishes in your search. Perhaps I merely asked incorrectly, I don't know. I would be very happy to hear of what you may learn.

 

[bruceg]

Kindest Regards, InLove!

Allow me to begin by welcoming you back! You have been missed!
<snip>
The Jews keep a really neat little book, some of them handed down for generations in the family, that describes how to conduct the Passover. I forget what it is called offhand, my Hebrew never was that great. I recall that in some cultural expressions of Passover a boiled egg is used, but off the top of my head I don't recall why. If you learn which are the bitter herbs, beyond perhaps horseradish and coriander, I would be obliged if you would share with me. Every time, without exception, that I ever asked I was stonewalled. I always thought that curious.

The book is called the Haggadah. There's a lot of them out there - around Passover in the US you'll usually find them being given away with coffee (Maxwell House for some reason does this) in the grocery stores if they carry food that's Kosher for Passover.

The contents of the seder plate are an egg, a roasted bone, parsley, bitter herbs (usually horseradish), and charoset, which is a mix of apples and chopped nuts. Each has a specific symbolic meaning - which is written out in a section of the service called the "four questions".
Basically:
Charoset = reminder of clay/mortar from working for pharoah
Bitter Herbs = reminder of the nasty way the Egyptians treated the Jews
Matzah = reminder of the flight from Egypt and the lack of time to have bread rise before the flight
Eggs = Reminder of spring (as is the parsley)
Parsley = reminder of the blessings of things that grow in the ground
Bone = reminder of the last plague - the death of the firstborn, where lambs blood was put on the lintels of the doors of the Jews to tell the angel of death to skip the house

There's a really cute Hagaddah for kids at http://www.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/Uncle_Eli/Eli.html

And there's a fascinating open source haggaddah site that produces versions suitable for various affiliations at http://www.opensourcehaggadah.com/index.php?section=20&tab=translations&affiliation=
(great place to explore - I've lost 20 minutes since finding it).

Hope that helps.



As to the original question, of "not commanded to" - look at Matthew 5:17 and 5:18. Revocations of the law are only in the later letters from Paul, so... who outranks whom? (Don't bring that debate into this thread though - it's got its own set of threads out there).

 

[iBrian]

Seems there is a specific group by that name that attempt to convert Jews

Yep, Jews for Jesus - it's been raised as a very sore issue before now, and I think we had one of their members post on the Judaism board a while back.

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Bruce!

The book is called the Haggadah. There's a lot of them out there - around Passover in the US you'll usually find them being given away with coffee (Maxwell House for some reason does this) in the grocery stores if they carry food that's Kosher for Passover.

The contents of the seder plate are an egg, a roasted bone, parsley, bitter herbs (usually horseradish), and charoset, which is a mix of apples and chopped nuts. Each has a specific symbolic meaning - which is written out in a section of the service called the "four questions".
Basically:
Charoset = reminder of clay/mortar from working for pharoah
Bitter Herbs = reminder of the nasty way the Egyptians treated the Jews
Matzah = reminder of the flight from Egypt and the lack of time to have bread rise before the flight
Eggs = Reminder of spring (as is the parsley)
Parsley = reminder of the blessings of things that grow in the ground
Bone = reminder of the last plague - the death of the firstborn, where lambs blood was put on the lintels of the doors of the Jews to tell the angel of death to skip the house

There's a really cute Hagaddah for kids at http://www.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/Uncle_Eli/Eli.html

And there's a fascinating open source haggaddah site that produces versions suitable for various affiliations at http://www.opensourcehaggadah.com/index.php?section=20&tab=translations&affiliation=
(great place to explore - I've lost 20 minutes since finding it).

Hope that helps.

Thank you! Thank you very much, that is a huge help.

As to the original question, of "not commanded to" - look at Matthew 5:17 and 5:18. Revocations of the law are only in the later letters from Paul, so... who outranks whom? (Don't bring that debate into this thread though - it's got its own set of threads out there).

Precisely.

 

[bananabrain]

juantoo3 - i don't remember going ballistic with *you*. it is true that "jews for jesus" is one of the few religious groups that i have a deep-seated revulsion for, but i don't consider you one of them, nor do i remember finding your own practice or beliefs objectionable. i just don't think j4j are a terribly helpful model for sincere people like yourself. so, OK, the term "messianic jew" will get short shrift from me, but if you were to come up with something better, i dare say there'd be less of an automatic (well, AK47-type automatic) reaction from me. i dare say dauer would have been a bit more tactful, however! basically, if the two things aren't confused we should remain cool.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Bandit]

juantoo3 - i don't remember going ballistic with *you*. it is true that "jews for jesus" is one of the few religious groups that i have a deep-seated revulsion for, but i don't consider you one of them, nor do i remember finding your own practice or beliefs objectionable. i just don't think j4j are a terribly helpful model for sincere people like yourself. so, OK, the term "messianic jew" will get short shrift from me, but if you were to come up with something better, i dare say there'd be less of an automatic (well, AK47-type automatic) reaction from me. i dare say dauer would have been a bit more tactful, however! basically, if the two things aren't confused we should remain cool.

b'shalom

bananabrain

hi bananabrain

i know we talked about this once before. after researching some of their church doctrine & how it all started out, i understand now why you feel the way you do about it.

i think everyone has a 'deep-seated revulsion' at some point or another.

 

[Bandit]

Hi Y'all--Peace to all here--

I have a question for my Christian brothers and sisters. It may seem silly to some, but it is not silly to me. It is something I have wondered about for some time.

Anyway, even though this may not make much sense to some, I was just wondering if anyone out there, particularly Christians, could answer me on this. It may not be the most burning question out there, but still, I wonder....

If my question is not clear, let me know. I will do my best to restate it in a way that makes more sense. Any takers???

InPeace,
InLove

would you happen to be thinking about Sadar as part of this?

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, BB!

Thank you for the response!

juantoo3 - i don't remember going ballistic with *you*. it is true that "jews for jesus" is one of the few religious groups that i have a deep-seated revulsion for, but i don't consider you one of them, nor do i remember finding your own practice or beliefs objectionable. i just don't think j4j are a terribly helpful model for sincere people like yourself.

That does clarify some concerns I have had, thanks. I have long thought I somehow inadvertantly managed to offend.

so, OK, the term "messianic jew" will get short shrift from me, but if you were to come up with something better, i dare say there'd be less of an automatic (well, AK47-type automatic) reaction from me. i dare say dauer would have been a bit more tactful, however! basically, if the two things aren't confused we should remain cool.

I accept and understand that you don't give the man Jesus much weight in consideration towards your faith and religion, and I realize you understand this same man is the cornerstone of mine. I do not know what term could possibly substitute for "messianic jew." I am open to suggestions, if you have one that is neither offensive to yourself or me.

As for j4j, I knew nothing of them prior to coming to this site, and the only I have learned of them is through this site. They are a mystery to me, they are like a unicorn in that I have not seen one, but some say they exist...I have no need to seek them out. If their purpose is, as you say (and I have no reason to doubt) conversion of Jews, then I would have to disagree with them on that point, largely for what I believe are the same reasons you do. Jews are already "saved," why would they need saving?

 

[Faithfulservant]

InLove

Remember that we have freedom in Christ.

Celebrate them with God in your heart and worry not about what others may think.

Col 2:16-23

 

[InLove]

Hi, Y'all

Thanks for the welcome-back, Juan--I miss CR when I cannot be here, and these days it is often.

Funny how I sometimes hesitate a long time before asking a question. I do this either because I think it might be too stupid (no grounds for that, really, at least not here--not if one can manage to ask in a respectable manner, but then that is also sometimes the reason I delay. Must get my wording right)...

...or sometimes I don't ask a question when I want to because I do not want to spark controversy innapropriately by asking the wrong thing on the wrong board. LOL--sometimes I know I would be asking on the appropriate board, and STILL do not wish to start a particular argument!

In this case, thankfully, the conversation appears to be a fruitful one.

I appreciate all of the helpful responses.

Thanks,
InPeace,
InLove

 

[Quahom1]

Hi Y'all--Peace to all here--

I have a question for my Christian brothers and sisters. It may seem silly to some, but it is not silly to me. It is something I have wondered about for some time.

So here it is: If I believe that Christ has already appeared here on earth, and gone through with the Holy Sacrifice prophesied in the Word of God (and I do), is it wrong for me to also embrace one or more aspects of Jewish ritual--especially whatever pertains to the remembrance of God's leadership, protection, and mercy regarding the Hebrew people and anyone who believes?

For clarity, let me say that I know I am not commanded to observe this, but what if I choose to do so? My folks say that I will be putting "a noose around my neck". I say that this is not so, as long as I know the difference between remembrance and obligation.

For example, say I want to, during Passover, remember Israel in some small way--perhaps on my table will be some carefully prepared dish for a specific purpose. Of course, I am not going to be serving pork on that same table (even though I believe it is okay with God), but then I am uneducated in all of that stuff--guess you might say that everything I do is not Kosher??? Because whatever is on my table will be lifted up for blessing in the name of Jesus. It is a complicated question--I suppose....

The purpose of that carefully prepared dish (say some eggs dyed red)--I won't go into all of the symbolism there, but I say for sure that there is no denial of the Messiah there--God would not order anything that denies His Son--and I do not even know if "red eggs" were part of the orders.

Anyway, even though this may not make much sense to some, I was just wondering if anyone out there, particularly Christians, could answer me on this. It may not be the most burning question out there, but still, I wonder....

If my question is not clear, let me know. I will do my best to restate it in a way that makes more sense. Any takers???

InPeace,
InLove

Good morning InLove,

There is a wonderful book out there titled "Enter His Gates" (To your Jewish Roots) by Susan Marcus. She provides wonderful insight into the Jewish traditions, for Christians who wonder why we do certain rituals in church, or eat certain foods, or perform certain rights at home, that are frankly, quite Jewish.

Did you know for example that we are to sing joyfully and with vigor at thanksgiving (any thanksgiving)? God loves the sound of the human voice in song, especially when it alludes to or is dedicated to Him.

Must mean that God loves country, as well as gospel singers...

my thoughts

v/r

Q