a tree is just a tree?

Bandit

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this might raise some controversy.

is it a Holiday tree or a Christmas tree?

Click here to vote> Related: Vote: Holiday Tree vs. Christmas Tree?

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=1356566

(there are some popups, so i hope you have pop up blocker)

Nov. 29, 2005— As millions of Americans prepare for the holidays, a new front in the culture wars has erupted over holiday semantics.

On Capitol Hill, Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert, R-Ill., has asked that the giant, decorated spruce that sits on Capitol grounds in December, which has been referred to as the "holiday tree" for the past several years, be renamed the "Christmas tree."
It's an issue that resonates with other Americans as well.
 
That is ridiculous,

I cant help but feel a deep frustration with this whole process. Not the process of secularisation, I actually think that's a good idea, it's the loss of western culture that bothers me. Despite what seems to be popular opinion, we in the west do have a strong culture of our own, but for reasons which escape me, we are forbidden from really engaging in it.

Bottom line is, all of western Europe and America was built on Christian principles, and that cannot be taken away without completely changing who we are.

Just look at this

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/4398680.stm

In the UK, a bunch of middle class do-gooders are becoming more and more convinced that any hint of traditional British culture will be deeply offensive to any ethnic minority.

Many council office workers are banned from displaying christmas cards with a religeous theme.

Will the muslims be offended if the Christians celebrate christmas? I wouldnt have thought so, I've never met one who was!

In fact, Im not even Christian, but I celebrate Christmas because it's part of my culture.

What's it all about?
 
Awaiting_the_fifth said:
That is ridiculous,

I cant help but feel a deep frustration with this whole process. Not the process of secularisation, I actually think that's a good idea, it's the loss of western culture that bothers me. Despite what seems to be popular opinion, we in the west do have a strong culture of our own, but for reasons which escape me, we are forbidden from really engaging in it.

Bottom line is, all of western Europe and America was built on Christian principles, and that cannot be taken away without completely changing who we are.

Just look at this

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/4398680.stm

In the UK, a bunch of middle class do-gooders are becoming more and more convinced that any hint of traditional British culture will be deeply offensive to any ethnic minority.

Many council office workers are banned from displaying christmas cards with a religeous theme.

Will the muslims be offended if the Christians celebrate christmas? I wouldnt have thought so, I've never met one who was!

In fact, Im not even Christian, but I celebrate Christmas because it's part of my culture.

What's it all about?

i am not sure what it is all about but i am interested in why. i did not know you felt like that ATF but i think it is pretty neat because i think culture & tradition has a lot to do with it also (regardless of belief). i was thinking in terms, it would kind of be equal to putting out the menorah & calling it a holiday candlestick & how someone would make a stink over that.


i think people should be allowed to display & call the display what they want to call it without anyone being offended also. i saw this on the news first & they asked the older generation what the tree is called at the white house & they all replied "a christmas tree". they asked the same question to elementary students & they all replied "a holiday tree". i am thinking that may have been what sparked it.

i was thinking it over just a little bit & realized that if it all is called a holiday card, a hoiliday tree, a holiday dinner, holiday music, then the name of my religion would eventually be called Holidayity or Holidayism with no meaning & that just did not sound right.

thanks for the link on winter lights.
here it is again on instrumental versions of music, celebrations & greetings in public places.
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/HolidayTheme/story?id=308996&page=1
 
LOL- all in all, I tend to think of this kind of stuff as somewhere between ridiculous uses of energy and wasted time. We have real problems in the world, and real trampling of ethnic and cultural minority groups, and here we are expending time, media, and thought on whether to call a tree with lights on it a "holiday tree" or a "Christmas tree."

Personally, I think these debates arise so that we all can feel like we're doing something, changing something, whilst happily ignoring the real problems our society faces.

My feeling is similar to ADFs. There is a "Western" culture, however vague and fuzzy and blended with innumerable minority traditions, and I think it's OK to call a spade a spade. People that see the Christmas tree differently will teach their kids otherwise anyway. If I ever have kids, they'd understand the meaning of the Christmas tree not only as a Christian but also from a Druidic perspective as well (as well as the mistletoe, holly, and other remnants of Pagan Europe that are lavishly sprinkled into the Christmas celebration). But who really cares if its all called "Christmas cards/trees/sales/whatever" or "Holiday ..."? Everyone knows there are several important holidays this time of year in various religions, that the majority group in the West will celebrate Christmas (whether Christian or not, religious or not), and that unless you're sending out a Winter Solstice or Hannukah (I always get the spelling wrong on that one!) card, you are buying cards marketed for Christmas. Furthermore, I think it's just odd to make it all about the "holidays." What distinguishing characteristics, then, set these "holidays" apart from the Fourth of July and Thanksgiving, which are also "holidays?" We all know from which religious tradition Santa Claus, Christmas trees, Candy Canes, and carols hails, even if we can't all recite the symbolic meanings and reasons for their origins. Even the very word "holiday" doesn't really get rid of the religious connotations- although the word has come to mean some day that people get off from work and eat lots of food with family, the original meaning is still in there- holi-day (a day set apart as holy). Why pretend it's otherwise?
 
I agree with ATF. This nation was built on Christian principles and the increasing secularism does change the face of the culture.

Moving toward a more secular society.

Isn't that what Revelation really talks about?

I say if people are offended and feel as if thier own religious principles are in danger, then they should work to feel more secure in their faith or go to a nation in which thier religious principles are in power. Anything other than Christian or Capitalism just doesn't really seem American to me.

So though this nation has an establishment clause, there is still a religious balance - seeing that most laws are in respect to the laws of the Bible. If that is taken out, then the morality of the culture is in danger. There will be nothing left but Capitalism.

And I say it is a politically correct Christmas Tree. But I guess you've got to make all the worker bees feel that they are not being neglected - lest you've got a sort of revolution on your hands.
 
a tree is just a tree...I grew up in a christian home utilizing those items borrowed from pagans like christmas trees, wreaths and of course christmas day.

To me the tree, the presents are all entirely secular.... a fun time for kids, excuses to party, help hallmark make it through the year.

Now dinner and church with family, reading the stories, that is the christian part...for most they are blurred, some can't seperate them, and some have eliminated one or the other.

To me, I wish I could just say Merry Christmas to everyone, and everyone could wish me well in their way on their holy-days...gotta wait for the pendelum to swing.
 
wil said:
To me, I wish I could just say Merry Christmas to everyone, and everyone could wish me well in their way on their holy-days...gotta wait for the pendelum to swing.

Me too. Someone can tell me have a Happy Winter Solstice or Hanukkah or whatever and I don't feel offended- even if I don't celebrate some holidays there's nothing wrong with wishing me a happy/good/merry day! All good wishes are appreciated!

But I tend to look at these things rather simply and not care much about labels...
 
truthseeker said:
Moving toward a more secular society.

Isn't that what Revelation really talks about?

I say if people are offended and feel as if thier own religious principles are in danger, then they should work to feel more secure in their faith or go to a nation in which thier religious principles are in power. Anything other than Christian or Capitalism just doesn't really seem American to me.

So though this nation has an establishment clause, there is still a religious balance - seeing that most laws are in respect to the laws of the Bible. If that is taken out, then the morality of the culture is in danger. There will be nothing left but Capitalism.

And I say it is a politically correct Christmas Tree. But I guess you've got to make all the worker bees feel that they are not being neglected - lest you've got a sort of revolution on your hands.

i see it like this too. i was talking to some people at work tonight about it & they called it a holiday bush.:)

i see all these little things in the big picture of Revelations like you do. it seems like governments are not really listening to what anyone is saying & are just doing & naming whatever they want & the people just have to deal with it. i mean government can call a tree whatever they choose to call it, or so that is what they say to us. right? sounds like capitalism to me also.

i like the sound of WINTER HOLIDAY CHRISTMAS TREE.
or WINTER CHRISTMAS HOLIDAY TREE.
 
I read a story recently about the origins of the Christmas tree, it goes like this: There was a Christian missionary from Britain out and about spreading the Word in Germany during Christmas he came across some people in the process of offering a human sacrifice unto a tree. He stopped them from killing the child and asked them why they were offering a sacrifice unto a tree, they said God lives in this tree. The missionary said 'no' and to prove his point he took an axe and felled the tree. Upon striking the tree he experienced a violent vibration and had a vision of a baby in between the broken trunk. Thus he realised that in fact God was in the tree and so initiated the practise of taking a tree into the home at christmas time.
 
Samuel Linton Boot said:
I read a story recently about the origins of the Christmas tree, it goes like this: There was a Christian missionary from Britain out and about spreading the Word in Germany during Christmas he came across some people in the process of offering a human sacrifice unto a tree. He stopped them from killing the child and asked them why they were offering a sacrifice unto a tree, they said God lives in this tree. The missionary said 'no' and to prove his point he took an axe and felled the tree. Upon striking the tree he experienced a violent vibration and had a vision of a baby in between the broken trunk. Thus he realised that in fact God was in the tree and so initiated the practise of taking a tree into the home at christmas time.

interesting story & thanks for sharing. i cant say i ever had a vision like that, but have definately felt the vibration in trees, plants & nature, & in different degrees. it is really neat when that happens.
mine is artificial, so no vibrations this year.

welcome aboard,:) Samuel Linton Boot.
 
Nice story about the Christmas tree. Never heard it. Thanks for sharing
As for the tree renaming, that is political correctness going too far. I'm not Christian, and I call it the Yule tree and I do not see it as offensive. Its a Christmas tree

I was making comment on this newstory with others in my extended family tonight and the comment from one was.
'He did it because of the Muslims'
Ignorance but I guess that ignorance must be throughout the western world. Sad.
 
Why are you all wasting time on the internet discussing Christmas/Holiday Trees?

Go out and buy something - that's what Christmas is for.
[/cynicism]

:D
 
One year on, is the tree still a tree, still a Christmas tree?

And what is a political correct tree wearing this yule tide?

Just love these new electric ice blue lights.

- c -
 
Blue lights...and I see maroons and purples this year as well.

My father only allowed red and green on the tree, lights when we were a kid came in packs of four, the big bulbs, red, yellow, blue, green or you could buy four packs of the individual colors...we only bought red and green, blue and yellow weren't Christmassie in his book and weren't allowed on our tree.
 
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